[LEGION] Mistweaving Discussion

[Myta]

I think a major problem with discussing utility is that everyone seems to have a different definition. Some consider offspecs utility (for awhile thats what Blizzard seemed to believe). Others think the ability to provide something that your role doesn't inherently have is utility, like damage as FW. Some think its some ability to do your job at an enhanced level like a raid or personal cooldown. The problem arises when most classes "utility" does not quite compare to another's 1:1. I personally think being highly mobile, with great personal defensives, raid blanketing heals, and immunity to ranged mechanics is a pretty big utility for MW, but others may disagree that its not utility, or that it somehow compares poorly to other classes.

Discussing utility is often a losing battle because everyone defines it differently. Unless there is some way to quantify things or compare the 1:1, like Pain Sup vs Cocoon, or Revival v Tranq, its pretty hard to convince others one way or another.

If we can't really talk about utility because the definitions create confusion between posters than I think we'd need to find other ways to have the conversation. Most everyone agrees our utility is either a bit or greatly lacking in Alpha. I think a way to help with that is by offering solutions/suggestions of abilities to the problem. Blizzard reads most forums and I think what this thread might lack is offering ideas back to Blizzard of what MWs might wanna see to handle a utility conundrum.

[Babylonius]

If we can't really talk about utility because the definitions create confusion between posters than I think we'd need to find other ways to have the conversation. Most everyone agrees our utility is either a bit or greatly lacking in Alpha. I think a way to help with that is by offering solutions/suggestions of abilities to the problem. Blizzard reads most forums and I think what this thread might lack is offering ideas back to Blizzard of what MWs might wanna see to handle a utility conundrum.

I'm not saying it can't be discussed, but its too vague of a term. If the "utility" is lacking in Alpha, what exactly is lacking? a raid cooldown? a tank cooldown? a damage cooldown? Is it lacking compared to other classes on Alpha? compared to live? Saying "utility" is lacking doesn't help as much as saying, something like "MW doesn't have a raid cooldown, but every other spec does". That's not the case, but just to illustrate my point that "utility" has different definitions to different people.

If Blizzard wants to read the suggestions here, saying "utility" is not likely to get people what they want anywhere near as much as specifics.

[Totaltotemic]

I think if everyone tried to say what they were going to say but avoided using the U word, discussion would be a lot more clear and meaningful.

For example, instead of "Mistweavers do not have enough u******", you should say "Mistweavers do not have a reason to be brought to raids over other healers", which would then lead to a discussion about what is unique about MWs and then the statement might be refined to a more nuanced idea beyond "the world hates us."

[Geodew]

I would definitely not say we have strong personals anymore. Fort Brew is removed and Diffuse/Dampen are nerfed.

I think what Total said is what most people mean, including raid/tank cds, though they are often not mentioned explicitly due to being obvious. Mobility and immunity to ranged mechanics doesn't help get you a raid spot, so I don't consider that as utility either. Mobility is mainly reflected on meters. Mechanic immunity does not prevent another player from having to deal with the mechanic, so the raid still takes the dps/hps loss as if you had gotten the mechanic.

[Supliftz]

rip 10 second cd rsk : (

[Phinkydo]

Every time we get closer to the FW dream... well at-least this makes TP/BOK more important now but at the cost of HPS

[Spotnick]

Well, give us the ability to summon people, problem solved lol

Seriously though, when you think about utility, what do other healers bring?

Shamans: Spirit Link Totem, Windwalk Totem, Grounding Totem, Tremor Totem, Blood Lust
Paladins: Bubble (w/o Taunt), Lay on Hands, Hand of Purity, Hand of Freedom, Hand of Protection, Stuns, Blind
Priests: Feathers, Aoe Fear, Roots, Mass Dispell, 10% more healing on Divine Hymn, No mana cost from Hymn of Hope, Mind Control, Life Grip, Fear Ward, Lightwell (lol)
Druids: Stampeding Roar, Typhoon, Cyclone, Vortex, Roots, Battle Rez,
Monks: Tiger's Lust, Leg Sweep, Touch of Death, Revival's Mass Dispell, Diffuse Magic, Fistweaving, Mechanic Immunity

Now every class has their major cooldown and single target cooldown, we can agree Life Cocoon is probably the weakest, fine. Shamans don't have a ST cooldown per se. I don't know much much other classes gain or lose in Legion, I know Shamans get a Reincarnate Totem and a speed boost Totem, and Paladins get a knockback. I also excluded some CCs because I don't remember the last time I used Hibernate or Shackles in a raid.

Not going to count paladins having multiple cooldowns and beacons which can be counted as utility even if it's part of their healing.

Monks lose Touch of Death, the dispell on Revival is not really useful because it implies wasting our biggest heal. We also use diffuse magic, and fistweaving (the dps-to-heal part), and the immunity.. so basically we lose 80% of what we have right now and gain.. nothing? Oh we actually gain a way to slow mobs with our transcendence clones, right, and the Song of Chi-Ji talent.

So what we really lack is External Cooldowns. Our only one beside LC is Tiger's Lust, which gimps us of our own mobility if we use... not sure any other cooldowns in the list above does that.

Out of all the suggestion I've seen, the one that made more sense was to give us Rallying Cry... I have no idea why it's the only raid-wide cooldown done by a non-healer left in the game.

I wouldn't say druids have such an awesome toolkit if it wasn't for brez and stampeding roar. But that's 2 very useful ones you use in every fight.

And after this tier, I'd say another class could use a mass grip.. sadly since our statue is not permanent anymore that would have been interesting. It will be interesting to see what Demon Hunters will end with.

And for the other utility, I still want us to be able to give mana tea to other people as a mana potion. It's sad the Nimble Brew is pvp only.

Edit: Seems like I have a couple obsolete info about other classes in Legion that lost some artifact stuff I saw before.

[cqwrteur]

For example, instead of "Mistweavers do not have enough u******", you should say "Mistweavers do not have a reason to be brought to raids over other healers".

This is the most constructive comment I have ever seen. I have put it in my signature.

[Deleted]

I for one am still feeling salty af about the fact that they've stripped us of (iconic) abilities and added them as *shiny new talents*. If statue were baseline I can see some really fun u****** being added to it like:
- mass grip
- an aura around the statue with +healing received within 5-10 yards
- Clash: statue draws enemies to it and stuns them

Other possibilities could be:
- something like a mass LC (perhaps without also auto-casting our hots)
- WW's aoe movement boost
- why don't we have some Yulon goodness? Enh shams get stormlash back, maybe we could get a cd to summon Yulon to boost the raid's primary stat.
- a dodge (grant 40% dodge to target for x seconds) or Touch of Karma-style (dmg reduction+dmg reflect) external
- in terms of class fantasy we do deal with spirit magic and soul shifting, so a brez would fit as well, though I don't personally think more classes need them.

I also really like the idea of getting Rallying. It fits well with the monk 'class fantasy' considering their history of rising up against the Mogu free the Pandaren from servitude. You just have to get the Warrior fanboi devs to not play favourites for once...

What do you guys think?

[Spotnick]

Nah, our utility should be that:



Basically Devotion Aura, but a stacked version. 90% and duration is a bit much though

If you have good memory you know it's a Chi-Ji ability.

And our dps cooldown:



And this could be our extra External Cooldown:



Maybe too close to enveloping mist, hmm.. could be the self-CD like "desperate prayer" though.

I really believe Chi-Ji should dps if there is nothing to heal if you use him as a talent. Like I said, now that he's no longer "mist walking" to everybody at full heal and looks like a permanent pet when you use him on alpha, it makes you wonder if a healer with pets would be a good idea

[cqwrteur]

I would definitely not say we have strong personals anymore. Fort Brew is removed and Diffuse/Dampen are nerfed.

I think what Total said is what most people mean, including raid/tank cds, though they are often not mentioned explicitly due to being obvious. Mobility and immunity to ranged mechanics doesn't help get you a raid spot, so I don't consider that as utility either. Mobility is mainly reflected on meters. Mechanic immunity does not prevent another player from having to deal with the mechanic, so the raid still takes the dps/hps loss as if you had gotten the mechanic.

How about using "raid spot provider" to represent the meaning?

- - - Updated - - -

- something like a mass LC (perhaps without also auto-casting our hots)
What do you guys think?

I personally dislike a mass LC. It makes us more like a resto shaman.

[Spotnick]

Just had the though, why not make Chi-Ji permanent when you talent it? that probably would tune it better than a 3 minute CD.

Plus, having him for 45 secs every 3 mins vs full time.. wouldn't say that is a big deal, and it would open the door to have him dps if you fistweave.

Waiting for all the hate lol.

[cqwrteur]

Just had the though, why not make Chi-Ji permanent when you talent it? that probably would tune it better than a 3 minute CD.

Plus, having him for 45 secs every 3 mins vs full time.. wouldn't say that is a big deal, and it would open the door to have him dps if you fistweave.

Waiting for all the hate lol.

But we can't talent RJW any more. RJW really fixes some of our healing problem. I hope a RJW baseline.

[Spotnick]

That's the whole point, there is pretty much no choice on that talent row because RJW is too good... I suggested on the alpha forum that they swapped RJW and Mana Tea or make RJW baseline, but I'm starting to believe leaving feedback that isn't theorycrafting is a waste of time.

After all, if I were a game designer, I wouldn't want 5 million people giving me advice on how to do my job.

[cqwrteur]

Maybe canceling the Chi burst AOE cap would be a nice utility.

[Spotnick]

Not sure you understand what utility is.. increasing healing of Chi Burst is only... increasing our healing throughput.

Utility is everything that is not healing.

[Crywalker]

So I am long time lurker of MMO Champion and thought I would jump in since I really enjoy playing Monk and am hoping to have it as my main in Legion (mostly for PvP). I've been following this thread and was curious about all of your thoughts of utility coming from something such as SM.

It could give the target a buff to movement speed or a damage reduction? Possibly this extra utility on SM can come from a buff that we stack up as we FW so we can have it strong enough to be actually helpful and prevent a passive play style of our job being to just keep SM up?

[ITER]

I haven't played the mistweaver spec on alpha, so take my suggestions with a grain of salt. But I don't really like what I see on the alpha. Long post incoming. Here are my suggestions:

I personally liked the uplift/renewing mist play style so I suggest to bring back uplift (with some changes) because it seems that blizzard's intention was for essence font to fill that role but it does a bad job at it; not to mention the problems with the mastery interacting with it. Also it would give monks a choice during raid...do I want to use a strong single target heal (enveloping mist), a medium cleave heal (vivify), or a weak heal that heals everyone (uplift) when we are healing. To fix the problems people had with uplift I believe uplift and renewing mist should be changed.

Uplift (2 second cast): When casted on a target with renewing mist it will heal all party or raid members with renewing mist in the party/raid. When casted on a target with no renewing mist it will heal all party or raid members that do not have renewing mist. 900% SP split between all targets -> 5 man: 180% SP each, 10 man: 90% SP each, 15 man: 60% SP each, 20 man: 45% SP each, 30 man: 30% SP each. Healing cannot be split lower than 5 targets.

Renewing Mist: When casted on a target, it will split until all members of the party or raid have a renewing mist on them. It will split the healing between all the members. So that it can be a strong heal in small groups as well as in large groups. 3750% SP split between all targets -> 5 man: 750% SP each, 10 man: 375% SP each, 15 man: 250% SP each, 20 man: 187.5% SP each, 30 man: 125% SP each. Healing cannot be split lower than 5 targets.

Also add the passive, Everlasting: All the monk's heals refreshes the duration of renewing mist.

There should also be a change to the percent to proc to increase the healing of vivify to scale as well: 4% on when renewing mist is on 5 people to 0.67% when it is on 30. Should be the same chance at each number of parties. It should also increase healing to the monk's next enveloping mist or uplift because again it would give more choice to the monk on the how to heal the damage.

I would also suggest to make RJW baseline and allow the monk to cast it on a target.

The mastery could be change to Empowering Mist: Increase all the monks healing on targets with renewing mist by a percent (good game play and everlasting talent says the monk should always have renewing mist on party or raid members). Increases a percent for every 1 point of mastery. It could also be an easier way to balance healing done by MWer by increasing or decreasing the mastery (Im not a dev so that could be wrong). A little boring but it should interact with all our spells and be a decent stat on our gear.

I also think it would lay the groundwork to help answer the question "Why bring a Mistweaver over other healers?" as well as fix problems with our mastery not interacting with certain spells.

With these changes you could incorporate some utility into the talent tree that goes with the class fantasy. Shaohao used our artifact to cover the land of Pandaria in a shroud of mist to protect it. We have the staff so why don't we use that part of wow history to change talents based on using mist to protect our allies.

Lvl 90 Talent Row: 1st: Hiding Mists: (This can be the passive weak damage reduction option) The monk's renewing mist hides their target from harm, lowering the damage they take by 2%. 2nd: Shroud of Mist: (A strong damage reduction that lasts a short time option) 2 second cast, Call upon the mists that Shaohao used to protect Pandaria to surround the monk and their allies within 8 yards. Reducing damage taken by 30% for 6 seconds. 3rd: Protecting Mists: (Can be something in between the first two) Imbues the monk's 3 main heals with protecting mists. Enveloping Mist now reduces damage by 15% (this can also serve as a form of tank cd when combined with the buffed life cocoon from the staff). When vivify heals a target it places a protecting mist on the target for 6 seconds reducing damage taken by 5% percent (per target). When you heal with uplift it does the same thing but for 1% per target.

The level 100 talents could also change to allow a monk to "spec" into the healing they want to focus on, single target, cleave, or aoe.
1st: Summon Jade Serpent Statue: Same thing as alpha but the talent also always the monk to have instant cast effuse and enveloping when channeling soothing mist.
2nd: Invoke Chi-Ji: Chi-Ji becomes your pet and will cast a weaker vivify on the lowest health target every time the monk casts vivify. (Animation can be him dashing to the target)
3rd: Essence Font: Centers your RJW on the monk and allowing it to hit all targets with renewing mist on them within 25 yards as well as shooting out a mist bolt to the target that heals them and leaves a small hot on the target.

I would change thunder focus tea to increase mastery by 20% for 10 seconds and make mana tea base line. I have never cared for the fist weaving side of MWer and would rather Blizzard make a 4th spec for it. They can call it Firedancer and its description can be "imbue your fists with the fire and hope of Chi-Ji allowing you to inspire and cleanse the chi of your allies by defeating their opponents."

So to answer the question "Why bring a MWer over another healer?" with those changes I would say because they can heal everyone regardless of range and bring some damage reduction. Its not much, but I feel its better than what we have at the moment on alpha. Sorry for the long post but I am not to happy with the direction I am seeing MWer being taken.

Also does anyone know what the new Dome of Mist icon is? It says its a monk ability and it came out with the most recent patch.

[Geodew]

TBH I hate most of your suggestions. Blizz also wouldn't add a damage reduction based healer right after removing absorbs. Even HPal Mastery was removed. And Vivify already serves as your core AoE filler spell (not EF). Adding Uplift back would make Vivify a very niche spell cast extremely infrequently. I.e. a dead button, much like detonate chi. Also you say you don't like that Uplift was removed and then suggested a whole bunch of things that have nothing to do with Uplift being replaced with Vivify. Like infinite duration ReMs which also make ReM a dead button once combat starts. So what, exactly, do you think are the problems with alpha MW? And why do you think you've fixed them? Because I'm pretty sure any issues can be fixed without what is basically a full spec overhaul, which is what it seems you're describing. In fact, you've reintroduced other problems, like the fact that your target is irrelevant.

[cqwrteur]

Not sure you understand what utility is.. increasing healing of Chi Burst is only... increasing our healing throughput.

Utility is everything that is not healing.

So SLT is not a utility.