Badges/Emblems - they have to come back

[Vark]

Currently, we gear our chars like this:
- ding 100
- tanaan/mythic dungeons
- heroics for legendary chain
- tanaan/mythic dungeons
- LFR Highmaul for ring
- tanaan/mythic dungeons
- LFR BRF for ring
- tanaan/mythic dungeons
- (eventualy) LFR HFC for ring
- tanaan/mythic dungeons
- HFC norm with pug (you have to lucky to get good group)
- HFC hc with pug (lucky again)
- weekly archi / mythic dungeons / LFRs / bonus events till 795 ring

You may say "ask guild for help". Well, everyone is burnt out of HFC cause of these sick 4 difficulties (or 3). I don't blame them.
Neither of these steps to gear up for mythic is interesting, immersing or funny. Without ring, without tiers, without trinkets (especialy class trinkets for some classes) and without at least hfc heroic gear you are just meaningless face in the crowd.

We need other ways to gear up. The sooner you have enough gear to do something meaningful (good dps, good hps, being tough tank) the sooner fun begins. Emblems/Badges and their gear were great. It was perfect catch-up mechanic. We need them back!

I'm aware that their comeback alone won't solve problem of gearing. The other reason is iLvl amplitude which is really too damn high.

[Saberstrike]

What was wrong with old system? Hit max level -> do quests to upgrade to some max level blues => do normal dungeons to upgrade to full / near full max level blues => do heroic dungeons to upgrade to better blues / epics => do raids / arena for high end gear.

That system worked perfectly, if you adjust the numbers to a point where they feel good you don't need any band aids like badges / apexis.

Oh, forgot rep gear that can fill the niche between normal dungeons and raids, maybe have slightly worse gear than 5man heroics.

[mysticx]

What was wrong with old system? Hit max level -> do quests to upgrade to some max level blues => do normal dungeons to upgrade to full / near full max level blues => do heroic dungeons to upgrade to better blues / epics => do raids / arena for high end gear.

The problem is (In PvE anyway), that after a few weeks from expansion release, it leaves players with nothing but raids to do as rewarding content, so what do you do the other six days of the week?

Having some system that offers character progression (In other words: gear or upgrades to gear) outside of raiding gives the players something to do when the raids are on lockout, the only people happy with the old system were "Log in, raid, log out for the week"-players, and as it turns out there aren't all that many of those...

[Vark]

What was wrong with old system? Hit max level -> do quests to upgrade to some max level blues => do normal dungeons to upgrade to full / near full max level blues => do heroic dungeons to upgrade to better blues / epics => do raids / arena for high end gear.

That system worked perfectly, if you adjust the numbers to a point where they feel good you don't need any band aids like badges / apexis.

Oh, forgot rep gear that can fill the niche between normal dungeons and raids, maybe have slightly worse gear than 5man heroics.

What IS wrong - after you do WoD heroics you have ~630 ilvl which isn't even close to required ilvl for HFC. If nothing dropped you felt little upset. Badge/Emblem drop was guaranteed and you knew that you will spend them somehow, either on gear piece or mats for profession.
With each new Tier in TBC/WotLK/Cata (dunno about MoP) you had new set of items to buy to catch up. In TBC they were expensive (100-150 badges), in WotLK currency was degraded (fe. from Emblem of Conquest to Emblem of Valor).

I never saw them like something bad - dunno why there is so much hate at them.

the only people happy with the old system were "Log in, raid, log out for the week"-players

Oh, now I see. Well, maybe it's fault of upgrade system. If you raid everyday then you don't need gear for Badges/Emblems. If guild don't take you for no gear - you have now free evening to farm some. I still don't see any problem.

[Nevcairiel]

Having some system that offers character progression (In other words: gear or upgrades to gear) outside of raiding gives the players something to do when the raids are on lockout, the only people happy with the old system were "Log in, raid, log out for the week"-players, and as it turns out there aren't all that many of those...

The "problem" is that to obtain raid-equal gear, you should also do content of equal challenge, and just farming dungeons for badges is not that.
Legion solves that by offering the new CMs, which scale in difficulty and offer raid-comparable gear depending on what level of difficulty in the CM you manage to do.

Hence, rewards based on your progression/skill, and not only on the amount of time you invested.

If you just want "catch-up" gear, they have offered that through the max level zones in both MoP (Timeless Isle) and WoD (Tanaan), which reward you rather quickly with enough gear to at least get into HFC LFR, or with some luck or Apexis investment (upgraded rolls or upgrade tokens), even HFC Normal.

[Delaios]

I'd like them back as well, though I preferred the Justice/Valor system of Cataclysm. Justice was easy to acquire, with the possibility of acquiring it while leveling and it had no cap on how fast you could gain them. In other words it was the basic catch up gear. Valor was great for slowly increasing your character's power over time, with gear equal to what would now be heroic raid gear, but it had a limited amount of slots. Right now the game lacks the old Valor option. Catch-up gear is faster than ever to obtain, but you just hit a wall after obtaining it unless you raid. Mythic dungeons are a nice concept, but the multiple tiers of warforged and large loot tables make it way too random.

The only downside to the Cata Justice/Valor system was that you could only get it in dungeons/raids. With a weekly cap of 1000, something like this would be better and offer some more freedom:
- 50 Valor per current raid tier boss (once across all difficulties)
- 100 Valor per mythic dungeon
- 50 Valor for the first heroic dungeon of the day
- 50 Valor for completing the "Pressing the attack" daily quest in Tanaan
- 200 Valor for completing the weekly event quest

If you fully clear HFC you'd only "need" to get 350 from other sources. The quotation marks are there because someone that actively raids heroic or higher would run out of upgrades to spend Valor on rather quickly. Any Valor over the weekly cap would be converted into Justice. A Justice vendor with a variety of goods would give you an optional way to spend your excess Justice.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I always liked inbetween gearing options like badges and the like. Sure on my main I love to raid, progress, pvp, and grind out the raids every week with my raid team. Maybe my second alt I keep up and ready for the team. But for all my other alts I really have no desire to raid, raid, and raid some more. Stuff like badges let me get decently good gear to tool around in the game without having to deal with the community of pug raiders. See.. as a raider I see a REAL advantage to systems like this being in the game for people that play like I do. As much as I see an advantage to those that don't. Everyone really wins.

[Vark]

The "problem" is that to obtain raid-equal gear, you should also do content of equal challenge, and just farming dungeons for badges is not that.
Legion solves that by offering the new CMs, which scale in difficulty and offer raid-comparable gear depending on what level of difficulty in the CM you manage to do.

Hence, rewards based on your progression/skill, and not only on the amount of time you invested.

If you just want "catch-up" gear, they have offered that through the max level zones in both MoP (Timeless Isle) and WoD (Tanaan), which reward you rather quickly with enough gear to at least get into HFC LFR, or with some luck or Apexis investment (upgraded rolls or upgrade tokens), even HFC Normal.

Read first post. Current catch-up mechanic is awfully boring. I could do mythic dungeons for Badges/Emblems all the time if HFC norm/hc gear would cost at least 50/100 badges. Badges could drop from every non-LFR raid of current xpac. That would also encourage players to visit older raids.

[Spike`]

I'd like them back as well, though I preferred the Justice/Valor system of Cataclysm. Justice was easy to acquire, with the possibility of acquiring it while leveling and it had no cap on how fast you could gain them. In other words it was the basic catch up gear. Valor was great for slowly increasing your character's power over time, with gear equal to what would now be heroic raid gear, but it had a limited amount of slots. Right now the game lacks the old Valor option. Catch-up gear is faster than ever to obtain, but you just hit a wall after obtaining it unless you raid. Mythic dungeons are a nice concept, but the multiple tiers of warforged and large loot tables make it way too random.

The only downside to the Cata Justice/Valor system was that you could only get it in dungeons/raids. With a weekly cap of 1000, something like this would be better and offer some more freedom:
- 50 Valor per current raid tier boss (once across all difficulties)
- 100 Valor per mythic dungeon
- 50 Valor for the first heroic dungeon of the day
- 50 Valor for completing the "Pressing the attack" daily quest in Tanaan
- 200 Valor for completing the weekly event quest

If you fully clear HFC you'd only "need" to get 350 from other sources. The quotation marks are there because someone that actively raids heroic or higher would run out of upgrades to spend Valor on rather quickly. Any Valor over the weekly cap would be converted into Justice. A Justice vendor with a variety of goods would give you an optional way to spend your excess Justice.

ya the WOTLK style with was for me the best

still remember the weekly to go kill x boss in old raid or the occasional random each week mini boss inside ICC to get more valor

[ComputerNerd]

There is nothing interesting in making old content relevant by adding in rewards to bribe people into running it.
As mentioned there is the difficulty aspect, in addition to the pressure to grind out content.
That is exactly why people who do not need LFR do LFR, and then complain about it.
There is absolutely nothing positive to be gained from that, which is why there should have been a cap on Valor, and one much lower than full completion of every source.
So that there isn't the pressure to use irrelevant or uninteresting content to "keep up" with the grind.

[Vark]

There is nothing interesting in making old content relevant by adding in rewards to bribe people into running it.
As mentioned there is the difficulty aspect, in addition to the pressure to grind out content.
That is exactly why people who do not need LFR do LFR, and then complain about it.
There is absolutely nothing positive to be gained from that, which is why there should have been a cap on Valor, and one much lower than full completion of every source.
So that there isn't the pressure to use irrelevant or uninteresting content to "keep up" with the grind.

Then you say it's better to stay and do nothing? Not everyone likes to do all the time the same raid on 1000 difficulties. Not everyone played since the begining of WoD. I had no problems with running Naxx, Ulduar, OS, EoE when ToC was introduced, I had no problems with running Kara, Gruul, ZA after I started raiding Sunwell.

You know, some people play for >>> FUN <<<. Fun isn't only high end content. When you play other games you have fun only by doing last mission/quest/room/map? I find fun when I do something meaningful with my friends. You can throw any difficulty at me - if it has proper rewards I'll do it through pain and tears, but I'll do it.

Valor cap backfired - instead making people "oh, ok, I won't grind endlessly these dungeon" they made "oh god I have to do them or I'll waste valors!!!". Cap is bad, veeeery bad. I don't remember Badge/Emblem cap and everyone was OK with that.

[Cathbadh]

They never left, they were renamed Apexis Crystals.

[Vark]

You don't earn Apexis for killing bosses. Gear you get from them is weak and the way you farm them is boring.

[Taeldorian]

ya the WOTLK style with was for me the best

still remember the weekly to go kill x boss in old raid or the occasional random each week mini boss inside ICC to get more valor

Ah yeah, that weekly in dalaran that asked you to kill some random boss for extra valor and all that. Now that was fun, gave me a reason (as well as everyone else doing the weekly) a reason to run older raids of that expac. Also badges/valor for gear made dungeons relevant, I don't remember when I wasn't running dungeons in wrath. There were also a lot of dungeons back then though compared to the standard 7-8 we get now, so it didn't get boring and we had a wide variety. I thought this system was the best honestly.

[l33t]

I'm aware that their comeback alone won't solve problem of gearing. The other reason is iLvl amplitude which is really too damn high.

Yes and they never should be gone, that was clearly a mistake made by Blizzard. Actually, whole WoD fits that description. As I said countless times, removing half of the game features and systems and giving nothing in return was a really idiotic move. An expansion should ADD more stuff, not REMOVE.

[Deleted]

They were just renamed to apexsis...

My entire guild used them before entering highmaul the system never left...

[Deleted]

There are two simple ways I can think off that would let you add higher ilvl gear without upsetting the gear balance for raiders (sigh). Valor and timegated crafting.

We have both of these people just ignore or look past them..

[Nevcairiel]

I could do mythic dungeons for Badges/Emblems all the time if HFC norm/hc gear would cost at least 50/100 badges. Badges could drop from every non-LFR raid of current xpac. That would also encourage players to visit older raids.

Well thats the point, you are not supposed to get super easy content to farm HC level raid gear. You are supposed to do something of at least similar difficulty, and Mythic dungeons are not that. Getting full raid gear thrown at you just for investing time in dungeons would take any sense of gear progression out of raiding.

Catch-up gear should bring you to the entry of the current tier (ie. max 690 ilvl for HFC), not right into the middle of it, and we have plenty sources to get you to 690 in a week, even if you consider them "boring". Didn't you say "the sooner the fun begins"? Catch-up gear has never been faster, and you can get into HFC Normal very quickly.

Gear acquisition needs to be time-capped and skill/progression based, its the only way to keep progression interesting for a longer time, if you can just farm the same (relatively easy) thing until you are fully geared in a week or two, thats just plain out boring, and should never happen for anything above the catch-up level.

Legion CMs will offer gear similar to raids, but hidden behind difficult content and gated per week so that its not "farmable", which is a decent compromise to offer character progression besides raids, but not excessively fast.

[Deleted]

Honestly I think the problem is very much localized in WoD. Apexis gear at launch was simply subpar due to very poor secondaries and the time it took to grind the apexis just did not feel worthwhile compared to the epic tokens from Garrison plus the highmaul/brf normal box.
Ofc now apexis is worthwhile; you can grind your apexis and get 695 gear with your prefered stats easier than you could back in TI, Kazzak gear is OK (admittedly fire yak dude's gear was OP as hell) and use those three slots from crafting to get a decent trinket/weapon and if you don't DW, one other slot.
Honestly I think the biggest issue is that in WoD tier sets and raid trinkets (especially in HFC) are so insanely powerful, that non-raiders just feel underwhelmed at the rewards they have access to especially considering WoD follows MoP which let a non-raider gear up like crazy to a very high level. It's just cognitive dissonance; you got used to something and it suddenly changed massively; especially considering non-raiders have had access to at least 2p since Wrath.
I am very curious how high lvl the prepatch rewards will be (they historically have been very solid rewards).
Also I think that it would be OK to just remove the crafted item limit at some point during the expansion.

- - - Updated - - -


This has simply not been true in MoP, Cata or Wrath though. You could get gear equivalent to normal raid gear without raid progression (and heck normal back then was Heroic now, so better than normal).

I agree with most of that.

Apexis was great until lfr dropped but I do think that tier and trinkets have grown out of control for a while now. I feel they should of capped off at wrath levels.

[kary]

Honestly I think the problem is very much localized in WoD. Apexis gear at launch was simply subpar due to very poor secondaries and the time it took to grind the apexis just did not feel worthwhile compared to the epic tokens from Garrison plus the highmaul/brf normal box.
Ofc now apexis is worthwhile; you can grind your apexis and get 695 gear with your prefered stats easier than you could back in TI, Kazzak gear is OK (admittedly fire yak dude's gear was OP as hell) and use those three slots from crafting to get a decent trinket/weapon and if you don't DW, one other slot.
Honestly I think the biggest issue is that in WoD tier sets and raid trinkets (especially in HFC) are so insanely powerful, that non-raiders just feel underwhelmed at the rewards they have access to especially considering WoD follows MoP which let a non-raider gear up like crazy to a very high level. It's just cognitive dissonance; you got used to something and it suddenly changed massively; especially considering non-raiders have had access to at least 2p since Wrath.
I am very curious how high lvl the prepatch rewards will be (they historically have been very solid rewards).
Also I think that it would be OK to just remove the crafted item limit at some point during the expansion.

- - - Updated - - -


This has simply not been true in MoP, Cata or Wrath though. You could get gear equivalent to normal raid gear without raid progression (and heck normal back then was Heroic now, so better than normal).

You could get 1-2 boe pieces.
So the same amount you could get now.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree with most of that.

Apexis was great until lfr dropped but I do think that tier and trinkets have grown out of control for a while now. I feel they should of capped off at wrath levels.

There was a similar difference between suboptimal geared dps and optimally geared dps in LFG.

Don't act like shadowmourne + Death's choice/verdict + DBW + 4pc warrior/pally/dk didn't shit on everyone
Don't act like phylactery+dfo +4pc shadow priest/warlocks/moonkins didn't shit on everyone.

Well geared raiders always did 20-50% more dps than casuals. Always.