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  1. #1921
    Quote Originally Posted by Humbugged View Post
    A Bronze dragon of an order lower than Nozdormu has the power to create entirely new realities and dimensions. If a lowly dragon like Kairoz can create an entirely new Draenor, then Blizzard inadvertently opened up the possibility of infinite baby Titans within infinite Azeroths. Since planets can be duplicated but the Legion is apparently spanning across all dimensions, we could theoretically use Kairoz's own scheme of creating infinite Orc armies reversed, and instead have infinite baby Titans against the singular Legion.

    Your move, Blizzard. You started this shit, not me.
    Except that it took a considerably powerful artifact and investment to make that happen.

  2. #1922
    Epic! Enthralled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    I think Chronicle very heavily implies that Elune is the Titan World-Soul of Azeroth.

    Chronicle tells us that:

    - Origin of the Well of Eternity : The magic waters there are literally the blood of the titan soul inside Azeroth, bleeding out from the wound left by killing Y'Shaarj.
    - When Sargeras was roaming the cosmos hunting demons, he found a Titan World-Soul that was deeply infected with Old Gods. It was sleeping (and Dreaming) but the dreams were completely corrupted by Nightmares. Sargeras destroyed the Titan World-Soul in response.
    - Instead of their Loa, they (Dark Trolls) began worshipping the moon goddess Elune, who they believed was bound to the Well of Eternity itself. They claimed that the deity slumbered within the fount’s depths during daylight hours.

    This confirms that:

    - Titan World Souls have a Dream by default.
    - The Well of Eternity is the Spirit-Blood of the Titan World Soul.
    - Elune is literally inside the Well of Eternity.

    So in conclusion:

    - Elune is the Titan World Soul
    - The Emerald Dream is Elune's Dream.
    - Freya (Avatar of Aeonar?) created all the Wild Gods from Elune's Blood, and tied their spirits to the Dream.

    - That means Cenarius is half-Titan (if his Mom really is Elune). It would explain his Humanoid appearance.

    I am with you on all except for the bolded part. On that, I'd say that the night elves believed that Elune is inside the Well of Eternity. That doesn't make it so. I mean, the original Well was destroyed, but that didn't destroy Elune. I'd guess that the literal belief that Elune slept in the Well was a belief of the very primitive elves, one that they possibly forgot as they grew more sophiticated.

  3. #1923
    Quote Originally Posted by Enthralled View Post
    I am with you on all except for the bolded part. On that, I'd say that the night elves believed that Elune is inside the Well of Eternity. That doesn't make it so. I mean, the original Well was destroyed, but that didn't destroy Elune. I'd guess that the literal belief that Elune slept in the Well was a belief of the very primitive elves, one that they possibly forgot as they grew more sophiticated.
    I think that part implies connection rather than Elune slumbering in there in literal sense. Dark Trolls communed with something connected to WoE. They called it Elune and believed it was inside WoE.

  4. #1924
    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    If there was one, I must have missed it. The game kept referring to the Keepers as Titans anyway, so it was hard to tell which "Titans" in the flavor lore in game were referring to the Titans, and which weren't.

    To be fair, when the OGs were introduced, they were hyped greatly with how both in and out of the game information making them out to be a force that fought equally with the Titans, or how they can't die and such. It's just that over time, their lore (the OGs') were more elaborated and they turned out to be... not so awesome when we kept fighting and defeating one OG to another. Some people never bothered to update their lore after the initial introduction and refused to accept the newer information, making up their own theories to justify the OGs' defeats.
    and do you blame them? They thought blizzard was building up something well concoted, but fail to take into account that blizzard change their lore ALL the time, and make mistakes too.

    which was the mistake who knows, but the great power of the old gods was certainly the case when you first hear about them, WotA alludes to them being the great evil and the ones behind Sargeras' maddening, truth is I feel, is that there are cases when game development and lore don't always see eye to eye, but we don't really know that. I suspect Chris and Richard Knaak having come up with one thing about the old gods, and the game developers and lore team were no where near as integrated in the AQ days as they are now... was there even a lore team back then?

    in the light of what they blizzard put out about the old gods, and than us killing one in AQ, it's easy to see how players would think it very very stupid that they were actually really dead by player hands - not if they are supposed to have that kind of power, it seems more likely blizzard has a deeper plot invovled and our actions somehow play into the OGs death, something like we think we've killed them but... " and the only reason why players would think that is based on what blizzard said about them, and thinking that everything is some super cool major plot.


    where truth is, itis not, something are, but many thing have just been changed along the way. typical e.g.s are orcs being honoruable instead of evil was a change not an original plan, Night elves coming from trolls and not being the first sentient playable race was another change, not a great master plan, Blood elves being horde and playable was another change - in fact judging by the RPG books written and based between TFT and wow, high wleves and goblins were going to be playable, and blood elves were going to be all villain - changed. Orcs being originally brown and not green was also a change that came later, not a grand master design always planned, even the orc origin story changed slightly a few times. Sargeras been corrupted by demons of which the Eredar were, then being the one corrupting the Eredar.. change. Old Gods being the great evil even titans can't get rid off completely for some reason (we were thinking parasite you can't destroy because of it's symbiotic relationship etc - we thought) now becoming nowhere not. Trolls shifted from being a post sundering group to a pre-sundering group

    they changed a lot of things from the original direction, it's okay mostly, they're allowed to do that, and most of the time their introdcutions and descriptions are vague enough for you to accept without too much trouble, but you can also usually tell when they've done it, a lot of times you like the changes anyway, so don't trouble yourslef too much, but the effect is that you do take with a pinch of salt everything that they introduce, don't think it all that, because it seems great and super and powerful now, but next expansion or next new idea, it will be marginialized and bumped aside for the new whacky theroy which wiill in turn take back seat to the next one after that etc.


    yo yo writing, and not very good at that too, but that's what you get when you have to adobt your lore to fit a set of game mechanics that just don't flow well especially when you also can't properly write a sotry and show it in said game because it's not set up to tell a sotry well, you just end up wit disappointment.. which is why I have been in facor of scrapping everything post WOW from the lore and writing something completley indepenednent of the game.
    but my hopes for that died with Chronicles, because chronicles now has tried to unify all the holes and previous errors in the lore making the game stuff ironclad cannon.

    don't get me wrong, it's not so bad, the only ones a bit chauffed are those who have followed from the start, and saw the original directions changed many times and realied that thier fave game producer/story writers were not as great or as competent as they'd have liked to believed or as they put them on a pedestal
    Last edited by Mace; 2016-03-14 at 07:02 PM.

  5. #1925
    Quote Originally Posted by Life-Binder View Post
    and yet tears of Elune = Titan artifact.
    So? It was named by elves, so it proves nothing.

  6. #1926
    Scarab Lord Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Life-Binder View Post
    but only a titan or a dark titan can be born from a titan soul ..
    Who said that? In Greek mythology, you have Pegasus who sprung from the blood dripping from Medusa's severed head.

    Elune could be to Well of Eternity what Anveena has been for the Sunwell.

    An hypothesis : When Y'Shaar'j was killed, a glub of the world-soul's blood bursts out. The Titans took it, put it in a vessel that they placed in orbit around Azeroth to keep it safe from the remaining Old Gods. From that blood a new deity was born, Elune. That way, the link the Night Elves make between Elune and the Well is preserved. It also agrees, from a certain point of view, with the Tauren's myths. They believe that Mu'sha/Elune is the eye of the Earthmother. If my suggestion is correct, Elune would indeed be part of the world-soul/Earthmother. Therefore, both myths would have truth in them.

    I'm probably wrong. It's just to show that Elune could be born of the world-soul without being the world-soul and a Titan herself.
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  7. #1927
    Quote Originally Posted by LazarusLong View Post
    So? It was named by elves, so it proves nothing.
    That's another possible explanation but it was not confirmed that the pillars of creation are named by elves though.

  8. #1928
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Nascent titans do dream but nothing says this is related to the Emerald Dream. The only part that suggests this uses fluff language like "others believe" and "it is said." These things are in-universe conjecture, not presented as facts. The fact is that Freya created the Emerald Dream to be a mirror image of Azeroth and help regulate the evolution of life.

  9. #1929
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Nascent titans do dream but nothing says this is related to the Emerald Dream. The only part that suggests this uses fluff language like "others believe" and "it is said." These things are in-universe conjecture, not presented as facts. The fact is that Freya created the Emerald Dream to be a mirror image of Azeroth and help regulate the evolution of life.
    "Some believe that Freya wove the Emerald Dream into being from nothing. Others claim that this strange place had always existed in some form, a dream born from Azeroth's slumbering world-soul. It is said that Freya tapped into this realm and molded what would become known as the Emerald Dream as a way to commune with the nascent titan."

    How does "some believe Freya wove the Emerald Dream into being from nothing" conclude that Freya creating the Emerald Dream is fact? The quote straight up contradicts that.

    And the fact that other Titan World-Souls (the one Sargeras destroyed) had Dreams without Freya's intervention seems to support the theory that all slumbering World-Souls have Dreams by default.

    I do agree that there is a distinction between Dream and Emerald Dream, and that the Emerald Dream is simply the Dream "reforged" by Freya to serve a number of purposes. I did word my previous post poorly.

  10. #1930
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    "Some believe that Freya wove the Emerald Dream into being from nothing. Others claim that this strange place had always existed in some form, a dream born from Azeroth's slumbering world-soul. It is said that Freya tapped into this realm and molded what would become known as the Emerald Dream as a way to commune with the nascent titan."

    How does "some believe Freya wove the Emerald Dream into being from nothing" conclude that Freya creating the Emerald Dream is fact? The quote straight up contradicts that.
    Because the section right on top of that, which isn't conjecture, says Freya created the ED just as I noted... Did you seriously miss it? It's in the pic you linked.
    As the titan-forged began shaping Azeroth, Keeper Freya set out to populate the world with organic life. To do so, she crafted the Emerald Dream, a vast and ever-shifting dimension of spirits and nature magic. This ethereal plane acted as a mirror image of Azeroth, helping regulate the evolutionary path of the world's flora and fauna.
    --Chronicle Volume 1

    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    And the fact that other Titan World-Souls (the one Sargeras destroyed) had Dreams without Freya's intervention seems to support the theory that all slumbering World-Souls have Dreams by default.

    I do agree that there is a distinction between Dream and Emerald Dream, and that the Emerald Dream is simply the Dream "reforged" by Freya to serve a number of purposes. I did word my previous post poorly.
    World-souls have dreams. You're putting more significance into it than Chronicle by capitalizing it into "Dream."

    Sargeras heard the dreams of the world-soul corrupted by Old Gods.
    With growing horror, Sargeras realized that this was not just any world. He heard the world-soul dreaming within its core. But these were not the joyous dreams Sargeras recognized from other world-souls—they were dark and horrific nightmares. The Old Gods' tendrils had burrowed deep, enveloping the slumbering titan's spirit in shadow.
    --Chronicle Volume 1

    Aggramar sensed the tranquil dreams of Azeroth's slumbering world-soul.
    It was during his long and lonely journeys that Aggramar sensed something extraordinary: the tranquil dreams of a slumbering world-soul, billowing across the cosmos.
    --Chronicle Volume 1

    Nothing outside of in-universe conjecture suggests that these dreams are actual realms.

  11. #1931
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
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    so, when the titan awakens, what would happen to the dream then?
    just *puff* and bye bye?


    Formerly known as Arafal

  12. #1932
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    Elune could be to Well of Eternity what Anveena has been for the Sunwell.
    Anveena was a pure concentration of arcane shaped into a human form. If Elune is the same, would be weird how her powers are apparently based on the Light/Shadow dichotomy, as Elune's followers are priestesses. That would mean that Night Elves got their Light from the mere faith in Elune and not from Elune herself.

    Interestingly enough, there's a chain Horde side in Desolace that lets you harness the "power of Elune" to wreak havoc on Nijel's Point (yeah, you butcher Night Elves with her very power) but the power in question looks more akin to a powerful firestorm rather than anything Light or Void related.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  13. #1933
    Elune has been the no.1 lore topic of interest for a while now, seen a lot of questions and mystery and interest surrounding her come up a lot, and chronicles not answering that has made it even more so.

    Perhaps they didn't want to tackle that one yet, Chris may not have decided on exactly what she is supposed to be.

    Or, she is a greater naaru, or related to the light side thingy, and she will feature a lot more in Volume 2 when the draenei, argus, naaru and the light feature more heavily. But that is kinda silly, she means a lot more to Azeroth and the night elves worship her than to the Draenei, but then who knows, maybe she is what links the elves and the draenei or some new massive revelation

  14. #1934
    Epic! Enthralled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    Anveena was a pure concentration of arcane shaped into a human form. If Elune is the same, would be weird how her powers are apparently based on the Light/Shadow dichotomy, as Elune's followers are priestesses. That would mean that Night Elves got their Light from the mere faith in Elune and not from Elune herself.

    Interestingly enough, there's a chain Horde side in Desolace that lets you harness the "power of Elune" to wreak havoc on Nijel's Point (yeah, you butcher Night Elves with her very power) but the power in question looks more akin to a powerful firestorm rather than anything Light or Void related.

    That is the chain where you have to offer sacrifices to Elune to receive this power -- including blood sacrifices from satyrs. It's a weird one

  15. #1935
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    A few things; the Tribunal of Ages is a lie (Loken corrupted the data), earthen and mechagnomes that followed Archaedas to Uldaman after Loken's betrayal are the dwarven progenitors but as they succumbed to the Curse of Flesh they lost all knowledge of who they once were.
    it also seems that the disc from Uldaman is also a lie as far as dwarves are concerned, appparently Troggs were created first, and they were not suitable, the earthern, vrykul etc were the improvements.

  16. #1936
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    Anveena was a pure concentration of arcane shaped into a human form. If Elune is the same, would be weird how her powers are apparently based on the Light/Shadow dichotomy, as Elune's followers are priestesses. That would mean that Night Elves got their Light from the mere faith in Elune and not from Elune herself.

    Interestingly enough, there's a chain Horde side in Desolace that lets you harness the "power of Elune" to wreak havoc on Nijel's Point (yeah, you butcher Night Elves with her very power) but the power in question looks more akin to a powerful firestorm rather than anything Light or Void related.
    Her priestesses could do some arcane stuff though. I don't think you can channel arcane with faith alone. Also, that quest chain, you don't call upon the power of Elune. You unlock the secret of the worshipers there and you have the magic.
    Last edited by Wildmoon; 2016-03-14 at 10:41 PM.

  17. #1937
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthralled View Post
    That is the chain where you have to offer sacrifices to Elune to receive this power -- including blood sacrifices from satyrs. It's a weird one
    That's probably the point where Elune mostly resembled the behavior of a Loa.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    Her priestesses could do some arcane stuff though. I don't think you can channel arcane with faith alone.
    Whatever arcane they use is pretty much identical to the one used by Druids. The interpretation you can give is that both use that stuff because of their shared worship of Elune. That would explain how druids and priestesses of the moon can manage to use a degree of arcane magic without studying it as mages do.

    Still, this would do nothing to clarify from where the Light and Shadow comes if Elune is just a boosted Anveena.

    Also, that quest chain, you don't call upon the power of Elune. You unlock the secret of the worshipers there and you have the magic.
    The power in question should be obtained by worshipping Elune. Since the Horde player has no intentions to worship his enemy's goddess, he follows the easy way and just thrusts the acolytes' spirits within the gems.

    Moreover:

    "The ancients revered the gems created by this mystical object, claiming that they were gifts from the goddess herself. It was believed that they were weapons capable of delivering them from any enemy."

    http://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:All_Becoming_Clearer

    "Along the runestone, it is explained that the momument's gemstones were imbued with the power to summon a firestorm.

    The storm could grow to be a mighty weapon either through sustained worship of Elune, or charged by spiritual energies of the fallen."


    http://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:Firestarter

    The gems are claimed to be a gift (arguably a creation) of Elune herself, later clarified their capability (summon a firestorm) and pointed out that a fervent Elune's worshipper would harness such power with his worship alone. That means the power would be granted by Elune herself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  18. #1938
    Just got the Chronicle and read through it. Pretty impressed, honestly. It retcons a lot, but for once it's for the sake of a surprising amount of consistency (and manages to actually give consistent explanations for existing things without having to retcon them).

    When I read that Spirit controls the nature of the other elements, I was wondering why Azeroth's elements seemed to be much more aggressive than Draenor's, despite Azeroth clearly being strong in Spirit. Then a few pages later, they explain that Azeroth's world-soul is absorbing the Spirit in order to be born.

    'Killing the Old Gods will destroy Azeroth' is explained in a way that doesn't make the story pointless (they were just impossible for the Titans to kill without destroying Azeroth, because the Titans are planet-sized and can't be precise enough with how well-rooted the Old Gods are).

    'Sargeras actually being good' is used, but in a way that actually works (he's definitely evil, but he means well with his goal; he's the ultimate well-intentioned extremist). It even gives a really interesting way for him to have seduced the well-meaning Eredar (he really does know a secret about the universe they need to stop).

    While I'm not keen on the whole "the ultimate enemy is a faceless, abstract representation of entropy", it results in a cosmology that actually makes sense, all without significantly redefining the conflicts we've been through.
    Last edited by Jokubas; 2016-03-15 at 02:19 AM.

  19. #1939
    Quote Originally Posted by Jokubas View Post
    'Killing the Old Gods will destroy Azeroth' is explained in a way that doesn't make the story pointless (they were just impossible for the Titans to kill without destroying Azeroth, because the Titans are planet-sized and can't be precise enough with how well-rooted the Old Gods are).
    I've always believed the resolution to the whole "Titans can't kill Old Gods without destroying the world, but somehow we can?" paradox was that we were the surgeon's scalpel in comparison to the Titan's being the battleaxe. I'm glad they've made that official.

  20. #1940
    Quote Originally Posted by Jokubas View Post
    Just got the Chronicle and read through it. Pretty impressed, honestly. It retcons a lot, but for once it's for the sake of a surprising amount of consistency (and manages to actually give consistent explanations for existing things without having to retcon them).

    When I read that Spirit controls the nature of the other elements, I was wondering why Azeroth's elements seemed to be much more aggressive than Draenor's, despite Azeroth clearly being strong in Spirit. Then a few pages later, they explain that Azeroth's world-soul is absorbing the Spirit in order to be born.

    'Killing the Old Gods will destroy Azeroth' is explained in a way that doesn't make the story pointless (they were just impossible for the Titans to kill without destroying Azeroth, because the Titans are planet-sized and can't be precise enough with how well-rooted the Old Gods are).

    'Sargeras actually being good' is used, but in a way that actually works (he's definitely evil, but he means well with his goal; he's the ultimate well-intentioned extremist). It even gives a really interesting way for him to have seduced the well-meaning Eredar (he really does know a secret about the universe they need to stop).

    While I'm not keen on the whole "the ultimate enemy is a faceless, abstract representation of entropy", it results in a cosmology that actually makes sense, all without significantly redefining the conflicts we've been through.
    Can I ask a favor? Can you find the lore on Jalgar (pre-devolved Furbolg) and take a pic of that page for me? I need it for a thing that I'm doing.

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