1. #841
    Deleted
    Given the fact SnD + Adrenaline Rush feels kinda ok, and Adrenaline Rush + RtB feels terrible, woudnt it be better if SnD and AR swapped places? I mean making Adrenaline Rush lvl 100 talent, making SnD baseline finisher and RtB 30s cooldown ability, that gives random combat enhancement for 30s. I think that'd be better for overall feel of the spec. Also buff fishing would be adressed.

    /edit: Adrenaline Rush would replace Roll the Bones.

  2. #842
    Quote Originally Posted by Endoc View Post
    Given the fact SnD + Adrenaline Rush feels kinda ok, and Adrenaline Rush + RtB feels terrible, woudnt it be better if SnD and AR swapped places? I mean making Adrenaline Rush lvl 100 talent, making SnD baseline finisher and RtB 30s cooldown ability, that gives random combat enhancement for 30s. I think that'd be better for overall feel of the spec. Also buff fishing would be adressed.

    /edit: Adrenaline Rush would replace Roll the Bones.
    SnD increases attack speed only - AR has no effect on it, or vice versa. I don't see how snd+AR feels ok and rtb+ar wouldnt.

    Maybe if SnD increased haste, resource generation would skyrocket, but it doesnt.

  3. #843
    Quote Originally Posted by elfporn View Post
    SnD increases attack speed only - AR has no effect on it, or vice versa. I don't see how snd+AR feels ok and rtb+ar wouldnt.

    Maybe if SnD increased haste, resource generation would skyrocket, but it doesnt.
    Adrenaline Rush does increase Attack Speed.

  4. #844
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by elfporn View Post
    SnD increases attack speed only - AR has no effect on it, or vice versa. I don't see how snd+AR feels ok and rtb+ar wouldnt.

    Maybe if SnD increased haste, resource generation would skyrocket, but it doesnt.
    Slice and Dice increasing attack speed by 100% gives you more than enough energy with more frequent MG procs. And Rtb + ar sometimes feels overwhelming. Energy just fluctuates too much, if you don't roll energy regen or attack speed buff you're energy starved for long time and if you do and use adrenaline Rush you can't spend energy fast enough to not cap. Even with omiting Pistol Shot procs.

  5. #845
    Quote Originally Posted by Endoc View Post
    Slice and Dice increasing attack speed by 100% gives you more than enough energy with more frequent MG procs. And Rtb + ar sometimes feels overwhelming. Energy just fluctuates too much, if you don't roll energy regen or attack speed buff you're energy starved for long time and if you do and use adrenaline Rush you can't spend energy fast enough to not cap. Even with omiting Pistol Shot procs.
    ha, i forgot about mg for some reason. derp. I don't see them not tuning/changing the way it works however.

  6. #846
    The problem is really the Outlaw talent tree needs massive buffs across the board and the artifact talent tree needs to be a little more coherent. Buffing SnD is the "compromise" for players that don't want Roll the Bones but more consistency that will impact the way they play.

    I personally like the idea of Roll the Bones, however I am deeply concerned that players will try to fish for True Bearing procs. If you ask me, Restless Blades mechanic should come back as it is easier to balance that way IMO. But True Bearing really does make the spec feel unique, especially paired up with Blurred Time. I am just concerned that players may be tempted to fish for True Bearing procs.

  7. #847
    I had a question about Bribe. Is there a level at which it doesn't work on mobs anymore? Can you bribe rares and elites?

  8. #848
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    The problem is really the Outlaw talent tree needs massive buffs across the board and the artifact talent tree needs to be a little more coherent. Buffing SnD is the "compromise" for players that don't want Roll the Bones but more consistency that will impact the way they play.

    I personally like the idea of Roll the Bones, however I am deeply concerned that players will try to fish for True Bearing procs. If you ask me, Restless Blades mechanic should come back as it is easier to balance that way IMO. But True Bearing really does make the spec feel unique, especially paired up with Blurred Time. I am just concerned that players may be tempted to fish for True Bearing procs.
    i imagine it will be tuned to be a dps loss to fish for procs...maybe.

    Or they will add another dice to make 1 or 5 low chance, and anything in between high/most likely

  9. #849
    Quote Originally Posted by Redecle View Post
    Well there's an obvious answer, i don't raid mythic anymore. So i do live in an alternative universe. Pulling ahead for marginal dps gain < what suits playstyle.
    To be honest that statement that "MfD is highly situational" is something pulled out of a hat by me, cause that was the situation the last time i checked. Which was ages ago. Probably not my best argument.
    Still it is pretty much the opposite if you ask a hardcore raider, talents change nearly on every fight, that's the current trend, you choose what's best for the fight in the raid environment, cause the talent system is as it is.
    Me, i've been running with Shuriken Toss for the past year and half, cause it's a good overall talent for a lot of situations on daily basis.
    As i said the only time in about a year i absolutely needed to change to MfD was with the brawlers guild on the boss with the ghosts, that was mandatory at the time to kill it.

    Cookie cutter builds are great for one thing. What the build is in Legion i really don't give a shit, i stopped reading theorycrafting sites with passion since i stopped raiding. Much more satisfying to play when you take the talent you want to take, not because you have to take it. That's an RPG, where the choice is yours, not some guy in a 3rd party site.. It's not like i'm going for world firsts with Serenity here. If i'm raiding and what i'm raiding, the raid is not going to wipe over one talent choice.. Specially since it's a choice of three per row and the differences are near minimal via tuning.
    The builds aren't even final for Legion and i already have a pretty solid and good idea how my build is going to be, unless something absolutely drastic happens with the tuning.
    That's a bold statement, but from what i've seen i'm taking everything that increases my energy regen so i can do more things than wait energy.
    Snd over MfD, who knows which is better since the tuning ain't final, but the specs problems have been out for quite sometime.. More than often i hear the words energy starved and "spec plays too slow". Common sense just states that a minute cd for 5 CPs cannot compete with constant source of energy, unless it's circumstances where you can abuse MfD to constantly reset.

    I sort of want to go deeper in the actual meanings of the abilities and themes.
    There's obvious names for these talents, but they don't really reflect what they are aiming for.
    Like if we look at the fury warrior, man that looks great, the sounds effects, the swings have a weight in them and the gore and rage.
    It's visually describing what that spec is about as well as ability wise.
    Then we have an Outlaw rogue, the new swings do have certain sway in them and the Pistol Shot is getting very describing.
    But he then in the middle of combat is throwing dice on the battlefield up from his ass, cause apparently pirates do that.

    He's got a talent named Marked for Death, which doesn't seem to mean anything, unless something actually dies.
    To me Marked for Death sounds like you're marked for death and when it expires you die instantly, no matter what "like if you're at 100% hp and the marks expires, snap it's a 100% hp Execute), but now it grants you mere 5cp and after that probably a finisher that hits like a little girl, it's not marked for anything.

    Death From Above, i don't know i've hated the animation from the start, you spin and jump and float up around like having a seizure.
    Cool name, but nothing backs that up, like leaping Assassins Creed style from the viewpoint, puncturing the enemy, not doing flipflops three feet from the ground.
    Killing Spree, this one actually looks nice with Blade Flurry on, but single target it's a mess, like dude what are you warping there for, it's one guy.
    Cannonball Barrage, "command a ghost ship crew to barrage the target", i'm not sure if this animation is finished, but where's the ship, why is this ship barrage happening indoors, on land far far away from any water.. I mean c'mon, i'm sure this idea wasn't really though out when the discussion about themed class fantasy came to completion. It's a fantasy game, but hey at least try to make sense.

    It's like we want to make a pirate! What are the two things we can think of pirates do? Hey cannonballs and dice gambling, we must built this out of these two things.
    And the crowd favorite Blade Flurry, not the sarcastic thing the crowd might think of this on-off passive win aoe, no, my thoughts are on the animation, where are the blades? You know that are flurrying? Haven't seen any, have you? Sure the engine has it's limits, but if you're redoing animations, why not start from here and make an actual one where this Outlaw rogue toggles on Blade flurry and for the next minute you can't see nothing else but 7 gazillion blades around your character. it's aoe, it's not precision striking, it could be had so much fun animation wise, you take a guy, put him in motion cap suit, give him 2 foam blades, put him in a room alone and tell him to go apeshit all around and put that in the game.

    I get that animations are expensive to do and production values etc.
    But hey, fire mages are getting a Combustion animation where the mage fricking catches completely of fire.
    Like "then he burst into flames".
    Rogues have always been challenging animation and effect wise.
    But in my opinion it doesn't need to be things caught on fire.
    Like that Blade Flurry above, you swirl around 360 with blades in your hand hitting everything like an aoe, makes sense.
    Precision strikes where you see cold blue steel blade swinging.
    Poison dripping, things appear from shadows and smoke.
    Smoking gun barrel after Pistol Shot.. Blood spattering..
    The Grappling Hook you could actually climb on things you normally can't jump to.
    Even the MfD subtle skull on the target, that's actually a good thing about the ability, there's an actual mark of death.
    5 CPs is just not going to kill it by itself.
    To be a pirate you don't need dice to look like a pirate, pirates in combat look like any other guy in combat with a sword or a gun.
    Clothes and such make the pirate.
    Not god damn cannonballs appearing 3 meters above your head from thin air.

    One thing i have to mention,
    Smoke Bomb. Yes this very important raid CD and pvp CD.
    I've had so much fun using it, i mean a laugh, over and over and over again.
    My usage:
    I'm a worgen rogue.
    I made a macro, when i stealth i change to human form.
    When i go Backstab something,
    my macro launches the worgen form, which has the transformation animation.
    Throws down Smoke Bomb so it looks like i emerge from the smoke when unstealthing.
    Usually yell something.. "Surprise!" / or as Darkwing Duck would say: "I'm the terror that flaps in the night!" / 'anything what you would yell when backstabbing someone'.
    And Grande Finale the Backstab.

    I mean that shit is still funny and creepy after 500th time. And rogue.
    Total waste of CD, but it looks awesome.
    But it's the little things in life.
    ^^^^THIS^^^^ Thinking of making my old Worgen rogue, inactive since Cataclysm, my next alt to work on. Have the 100-boost set aside from pre-ordering Legion. And he has been "Bloodsail Admiral Furrycane" for years now. But I'm not sure giant dice and cannon barrages from nowhere are what I had in mind. Still mulling it over.

  10. #850
    Quote Originally Posted by elfporn View Post
    i imagine it will be tuned to be a dps loss to fish for procs...maybe.

    Or they will add another dice to make 1 or 5 low chance, and anything in between high/most likely
    I can make you happy then:

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestalon
    Outlaw Rogue Feedback -- Build 21232 -- 3-Mar
    In the build after next, you'll find that Roll the Bones rolls 6 dice, instead of 5. That should solve the rerolling-for-5-buffs issue you were discussing. (Blue Tracker)
    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/4...d-21232-3-mar/

  11. #851
    I loved the Pirates of the Caribbean movies, and I suppose abilities like Parley and Cannon Barrage and Roll the Dice (apologies if I got exact name wrong) could be fun to lighten the mood, but seems like they might get old. Having a hard time believing that demons would honor the tradition of Parley, while we're on the topic. Wasn't that just between pirates?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Then again, it looks like there are perfectly good alternatives on each of those talent tiers, so you could leave these out most of the time, and just spec into them occasionally when you were in the mood? And if you really value immersion, you could even wait to spec into them until the setting was right, e.g., I'm running Iron Docks so I'm definitely gonna call in some cannonball barrages!

  12. #852
    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsgaul View Post
    I meant a 7th. Knewbout that already.

  13. #853
    Quote Originally Posted by elfporn View Post
    I meant a 7th. Knewbout that already.
    6th is enough. Probability to get all 6 buffs is 1.5%. No one is going to reroll 67 times on average for that.

  14. #854
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorentz View Post
    6th is enough. Probability to get all 6 buffs is 1.5%. No one is going to reroll 67 times on average for that.
    Apparently its still a worry. Id rather see numbers on dps loss for fishing

  15. #855
    Deleted
    I don't care much for RTB,

    I would love them to implement the old sword specialisation in to slice and dice or the mastery. There's just something about hitting twice that is satisfying, at least from a flavour point of view.

    I personally think that mastery is a poor design/stat in general that doesn't add to gameplay and distracts from secondary stat boosts. The game pretty much went downhill since its implimentation/cataclysm.

    I generally miss being unable to customise my class with talents. Now I feel as if i'm forced to take talents - It's one ability that you have to have that is customised, the actual gameplay or flavour doesn't change. If I'm honest I'm "lazy" and will generally just take the passive ability when possible to avoid talents.

  16. #856
    Quote Originally Posted by DarklingThrush View Post
    ^^^^THIS^^^^ Thinking of making my old Worgen rogue, inactive since Cataclysm, my next alt to work on. Have the 100-boost set aside from pre-ordering Legion. And he has been "Bloodsail Admiral Furrycane" for years now. But I'm not sure giant dice and cannon barrages from nowhere are what I had in mind. Still mulling it over.
    Yeah this is how I feel too. At least some piratey abilities are talents but some aren't (dice and gun for example) which is a bit of a bummer. I've been thinking I can overlook the whole pirate aspect, but I am already so incredibly sick of it and I haven't even played it. >.< I don't think I'd mind the gun if it actually DID something. But it doesn't. It's a slow. Sometimes a free cost-slow. Sometimes a tiny bit harder hitting slow. I mean... compelling? I think not.

    There was a lot of potential though. How many have not wanted to dual wield a sword and a gun? They could have given us a talent option to do that which replaces some abilities into ranged ones. Although I guess that would be conflicting with artifact weapons.

    Mastery still sucks. I hate being such a passive spec. Grappling Hook really needed to be baseline. Ghostly Strike should've been more interesting. When I picture it I see a strike that turns the victim a little ghostly for a few sec. Disappointed it's just a 10% damage boost even if that's not bad per say. That whole first row feels a bit disappointing tbh. As does the 30 and 75 tier. With Grappling Baseline they could've given us a lot more interesting mobility choices. And that PVP row doesn't even make sense. Not to mention SnD really needed to be in another tier, or made baseline again...

    I really really hope they decide to go through the spec and do an overhaul, even though I know they probably won't. At this point though it needs it for me to actually want to play it. And it makes me a little sad because I'll miss having swords so much.

  17. #857
    Blademaster sayewonn's Avatar
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    I think what is really holding back the spec is that there are still so many legacy talents from MOP/WOD that don't really fit the theme they are pushing. When you look at the Subtlety and Assassin trees, outside of mechanical issues still being worked out they fit pretty well, with new talents that really sell the class fantasy. I feel the Outlaw talents so far are only halfway there; that level 75 row has to go and I think they can come up with better ideas for our movement row.

  18. #858
    Quote Originally Posted by sayewonn View Post
    I think what is really holding back the spec is that there are still so many legacy talents from MOP/WOD that don't really fit the theme they are pushing. When you look at the Subtlety and Assassin trees, outside of mechanical issues still being worked out they fit pretty well, with new talents that really sell the class fantasy. I feel the Outlaw talents so far are only halfway there; that level 75 row has to go and I think they can come up with better ideas for our movement row.
    All three talent trees are fairly underwhelming really.

    Assassination is marginally better than the other two however.

  19. #859
    About Parley - Shouldn't this tie up the rogue as well? Who else are they supposed to parley with? You don't just expect the guard to stand there and parley with themselves while you're 10' away ganking their mate. That's beyond silly.

  20. #860
    Quote Originally Posted by DarklingThrush View Post
    About Parley - Shouldn't this tie up the rogue as well? Who else are they supposed to parley with? You don't just expect the guard to stand there and parley with themselves while you're 10' away ganking their mate. That's beyond silly.
    You conjure up a ghost of yourself that argues with your Parleyed target. That would be awesome haha.

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