[7.0]Preliminary Legion Hunter Discussion/Mechanics/Information

[Deleted]

Usually all last tier have some good sets bonuses.
T13 - 30% haste for 15s
T16 - Spamming explosive to death
T18 - Instant aimed

But i would love hunter to be a harder class so less ppl will going around as hunter alts.

[Sencha]

But i would love hunter to be a harder class so less ppl will going around as hunter alts.

Yes me too.

But unfortunately it seems Bliizard is going the opposite way...

[Eapoe]

I'd like to see much less hunters than now, just because those FOTM hunters are those ruining hunter reputation the most.
OP set bonuses as MM? Haven't seen that ever happen, our set bonuses are average in best case, and one of the least creative ever (every other tier had at least one bonus being flat +X% to Aimed/Chimaera shot).
Instant aimed shot (current 4P) might be powerful, but it actually the least creative set bonus of recent times - other classes/specs get fancy summons, procs or something while we're left with this... not to mention our spec trinket being useful only in theoretical situations.

Least creative doesn't mean not OP. Maybe you prefer a different phrasing? "So damn good for 1 spec, other 2 specs left behind." MM tier so good over other 2 that it beats the others on damage so much on most fights that it's not worth playing the other 2, especially during progression. Few exceptions is if your raid is lacking AoE for Xhul or Manny and you go BM to help. There's such a dps difference between MM and SV it's kind of stupid.

[Mahmeya]

Least creative doesn't mean not OP. Maybe you prefer a different phrasing? "So damn good for 1 spec, other 2 specs left behind." MM tier so good over other 2 that it beats the others on damage so much on most fights that it's not worth playing the other 2, especially during progression. Few exceptions is if your raid is lacking AoE for Xhul or Manny and you go BM to help. There's such a dps difference between MM and SV it's kind of stupid.

Among hunters? Maybe. But I meant compared to damage specs of other classes. But as I said, too often there was +X% to Aimed or Chimaera (or Serpent sting in case of WotLK) while other classes get something much better in both interactivity and creativity. I just want to see that the developers have nice ideas for MM set bonuses as well, not just for the other specs AND classes.
T18 2P only promotes staying on nearly full focus because of the randomness with 4s RF (and thus basically guaranteed AiS crits), and T18 4P is completely passive and uninteractive. Yes, it changes the gameplay a lot and boosts damage noticeably, but is bland and boring, compared to summoning image of Tyrande to shoot arrows at the enemy (several specs have such kind of bonuses in T18)

[Eapoe]

Among hunters? Maybe. But I meant compared to damage specs of other classes. But as I said, too often there was +X% to Aimed or Chimaera (or Serpent sting in case of WotLK) while other classes get something much better in both interactivity and creativity. I just want to see that the developers have nice ideas for MM set bonuses as well, not just for the other specs AND classes.
T18 2P only promotes staying on nearly full focus because of the randomness with 4s RF (and thus basically guaranteed AiS crits), and T18 4P is completely passive and uninteractive. Yes, it changes the gameplay a lot and boosts damage noticeably, but is bland and boring, compared to summoning image of Tyrande to shoot arrows at the enemy (several specs have such kind of bonuses in T18)

Well now we are talking about 2 different things. You are focusing on fun, creative set bonuses.
My main point was that I am hoping that 1 spec becomes so little played that they don't make the next raid set bonuses to be designed for said spec to be OP or mandatory just to shoehorn players into it. Unfortunately, the creativity of a set bonuses doesn't factor into progression content, for a pure DPS class, it comes down to what's going to kill the bosses. I prefer having something fun to do, but I also prefer not to have my damage based purely on RNG, and hope this is something else they move away from, although the way it's going seems to be MORE towards RNG for hunters.

[Mahmeya]

Well now we are talking about 2 different things. You are focusing on fun, creative set bonuses.

It's a game, of course I am putting big value into fun part, not just power.

And I understand your concerns about set bonuses being used as spec buff instead of buffing the abilities directly - such causes the spec to suck until you get the bonuses.

Looking back, T16 4P:

Explosive Shot casts have a 40% chance to not consume a charge of Lock and Load. Aimed Shot has a 10% increased critical strike chance. Offensive abilities used during Bestial Wrath increase all damage you deal by 4% and all damage dealt by your pet by 2%, stacking up to 5 times.

BM - buffing up main burst CD - good
SV - RNG to core mechanic - ok-ish
MM - flat crit chance bonus - fail for last tier's 4P

[Eapoe]

It's a game, of course I am putting big value into fun part, not just power.

And I understand your concerns about set bonuses being used as spec buff instead of buffing the abilities directly - such causes the spec to suck until you get the bonuses.

Looking back, T16 4P:

BM - buffing up main burst CD - good
SV - RNG to core mechanic - ok-ish
MM - flat crit chance bonus - fail for last tier's 4P

That's the point though. For SoO, the tier for SV was so good it made it THE spec. RNG God let me spam 25 ES's in a row, I actually counted one time. That left other 2 behind. This is the shoehorning I'm talking about.

[Kissthebaby]

That's the point though. For SoO, the tier for SV was so good it made it THE spec. RNG God let me spam 25 ES's in a row, I actually counted one time. That left other 2 behind. This is the shoehorning I'm talking about.

Except BM was better than survival in SoO. So what the hell are you talking about? Survivals 4 set wasn't THAT good, it was decent thought. But still BM was the better spec.

[Eapoe]

Except BM was better than survival in SoO. So what the hell are you talking about? Survivals 4 set wasn't THAT good, it was decent thought. But still BM was the better spec.

Uhhh, no. Lot of people thought it did because they were going by Sims and either didn't put any value to the SV RNG of 4p or never calculated it. Even with very little to no procs SV maintained right at about BMs steady 4p, but with procs it launched ahead.
This will hold true in Legion with shoehorning if it happens. Say SV gets a 4p that lets you spam mongoose bite, where BM gives you a proc with BW that calls all 5 of your pets during active time that each deal 1% of there damage over the duration, and MM gets something like, random archer appears and hits your marked target for X damage (assume weak number) every 10 seconds. Now, sims will calculate those 2 and show higher than SV, also, by some standards those pieces might be more intuitive and fun to others, but a string of procs on MB can destroy those other sets and put you into having to play it for progression because it just does that much more damage.

[Proximitynz]

Uhhh, no. Lot of people thought it did because they were going by Sims and either didn't put any value to the SV RNG of 4p or never calculated it.

Well that's gonna prompt some interesting responses...

[Azortharion]

Uhhh, no. Lot of people thought it did because they were going by Sims and either didn't put any value to the SV RNG of 4p or never calculated it. Even with very little to no procs SV maintained right at about BMs steady 4p, but with procs it launched ahead.
This will hold true in Legion with shoehorning if it happens. Say SV gets a 4p that lets you spam mongoose bite, where BM gives you a proc with BW that calls all 5 of your pets during active time that each deal 1% of there damage over the duration, and MM gets something like, random archer appears and hits your marked target for X damage (assume weak number) every 10 seconds. Now, sims will calculate those 2 and show higher than SV, also, by some standards those pieces might be more intuitive and fun to others, but a string of procs on MB can destroy those other sets and put you into having to play it for progression because it just does that much more damage.

Wow, you're fucking detached. The logs are there, have a look. Survival was only > BM quite early in the tier. BM very quickly beat it out.

[Kissthebaby]

Uhhh, no. Lot of people thought it did because they were going by Sims and either didn't put any value to the SV RNG of 4p or never calculated it. Even with very little to no procs SV maintained right at about BMs steady 4p, but with procs it launched ahead.
This will hold true in Legion with shoehorning if it happens. Say SV gets a 4p that lets you spam mongoose bite, where BM gives you a proc with BW that calls all 5 of your pets during active time that each deal 1% of there damage over the duration, and MM gets something like, random archer appears and hits your marked target for X damage (assume weak number) every 10 seconds. Now, sims will calculate those 2 and show higher than SV, also, by some standards those pieces might be more intuitive and fun to others, but a string of procs on MB can destroy those other sets and put you into having to play it for progression because it just does that much more damage.

I was one of the biggest survival players out there during that tier. A lot of people know that and I had several #1 parses and most of time it was with insane rng. BM was better than survival there's no argument. You have no idea what you are talking about, and saying stupid stuff like "they were going by the sims" is dumb. Anyways dont make shit up on the hunter forums you will get called out quick and look dumb for trying to defend your argument when its wrong.

[Eapoe]

Wow, you're fucking detached. The logs are there, have a look. Survival was only > BM quite early in the tier. BM very quickly beat it out.

Yeah, you're right, logs are there, guess I'll go hang myself now.

- - - Updated - - -

I was one of the biggest survival players out there during that tier. A lot of people know that and I had several #1 parses and most of time it was with insane rng. BM was better than survival there's no argument. You have no idea what you are talking about, and saying stupid stuff like "they were going by the sims" is dumb. Anyways dont make shit up on the hunter forums you will get called out quick and look dumb for trying to defend your argument when its wrong.

Yeah, guess you're right, the logs prove it. My bad for making a statement I believed was true when it comes to simming things like RNG. I'll make sure to look for exact numbers when it comes to RNG now. Thanks.

[Mahmeya]

And then there was me, stubborn MM hunter that somehow managed to out-DPS my whole guild on Juggernaut and Thok as MM.
Even the warlocks.
But I guess such matters little to none if you play for fun and with people that play for fun and not min-max.

[Huggykaze]

Wow, you're fucking detached. The logs are there, have a look. Survival was only > BM quite early in the tier. BM very quickly beat it out.

Wait, weren't logs "anecdotal evidence" for you? Just curious, but don't you find it hypocritical?

[Deleted]

Wait, weren't logs "anecdotal evidence" for you? Just curious, but don't you find it hypocritical?

One/a few logs are anecdotal evidence, thousands of logs is evidence.

[Kissthebaby]

Here is the part where you just made something up to try and sound like you knew something. In actuality you are 100% wrong.

Uhhh, no. Lot of people thought it did because they were going by Sims and either didn't put any value to the SV RNG of 4p or never calculated it. Even with very little to no procs SV maintained right at about BMs steady 4p, but with procs it launched ahead.

It was actually the opposite of this. With decent rng survival was competitive with bm when bm had average rng. With little procs survival was not as close as bm and bm with decent rng was superior in every way. Survival had to have good rng to even compete. You can google me if you want to see how my credibility is, let's just say I know more than you.

Then there's the part where you try to sound funny and witty by sarcastically replying to Azor and I. That is you trying to play it off as the old "sarcasim defense" because you got caught in a lie trying to make something up. Then the only thing you could do was to say things like "I'm going to go hang myself" and "I guess you are right" because you had no evidence to actually back up anything you said. Yep you got us.

[Huggykaze]

One/a few logs are anecdotal evidence, thousands of logs is evidence.

Damn, don't answer the question for him :P

[Eapoe]

Here is the part where you just made something up to try and sound like you knew something. In actuality you are 100% wrong.


It was actually the opposite of this. With decent rng survival was competitive with bm when bm had average rng. With little procs survival was not as close as bm and bm with decent rng was superior in every way. Survival had to have good rng to even compete. You can google me if you want to see how my credibility is, let's just say I know more than you.

Then there's the part where you try to sound funny and witty by sarcastically replying to Azor and I. That is you trying to play it off as the old "sarcasim defense" because you got caught in a lie trying to make something up. Then the only thing you could do was to say things like "I'm going to go hang myself" and "I guess you are right" because you had no evidence to actually back up anything you said. Yep you got us.

The old "sarcasm defense" was because I am a sarcastic person by nature. Again, I believed that sims do not calculate actual RNG of said proc. Saying "I guess you were right" was me acknowledging you as being right. The hang myself was again, I am sarcastic and proven wrong and hanging head in shame. Now you come back acting holier than thou because you were right and bring your own sarcasm into it and just don't let it be. Yes, you are truly better than I and I acknowledge your magnificence as a player for knowing and remembering how the game played. I bow at you and tip my hat to you, oh greater of greats and master of hunters. (See, sarcasm).
I made a claim I believed t be true and then tried to back it up. Apparently that was a lie. Before this all happened I expressed a concern about a spec being shoehorned into being played and this went way off topic and became about old raids, false claims, being proven wrong (on old dps numbers), and the concern of the tier was never discussed. It became a conversation about fun to play and inventive tier vs boring design which then led us down the path to SoO conversation. Funny how the conversation was ninja mind fucked from expressing a concern to being proven wrong about something that had nothing to even do with said concern.

[Azortharion]

Damn, don't answer the question for him :P

It's the right answer. Not even rocket science, either. SoO unfortunately doesn't have statistics. It's still easy to look, and it's not anecdotal evidence when you're involving hundreds or maybe thousands of individual logs. I think you need to find a dictionary and quickly recheck what "anecdotal evidence" actually means.

Iron Jugg: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...nter&boss=1600

In the entire Hunter top 100, there's 10 Survival Hunters.
In the entire Hunter top 200, there are 21 Survival hunters.
In the entire Hunter top 300, there are 38 Survival hunters.

Are you seeing a pattern here too?

Add the fact that BM is even further ahead on cleave fights, Fallen Protectors rankings. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...nter&boss=1598

In the entire Hunter top 100, there's 0 Survival Hunters.
In the entire Hunter top 200, there are still 0 Survival hunters.
In the entire Hunter top 300, there are 6 Survival hunters.