Keep LFR out of Legion!

[Deleted]

See there's the framing again, it's about enjoy vs not enjoy and people attacking peoples enjoyment and not looking at anything beyond that.

If I was denouncing bots or wall / fly hackers or what have you, you could frame your question the same way and I could frame my response the same way. Just because someone enjoys something and that people can choose to or not to participate in it doesn't mean its healthy for the game, or even neutral for that matter.

You still didn't answer the question.

I've yet to see 1 good answer to that kind of question. How is removing LFR going to be good for the game?

You can't answer because it isn't going to be good for the game, it will just drive another nail into its coffin. A game criticised for its lack of content... Removes one of the most widely used pieces of group content - if not THE most widely used piece of group content - and that's somehow good for the game?

All it does is make it so that normal+ raiders are the only people who see the end of the story. Doesn't seem good for the game to me, seems like a change only made to boost the ego of normal+ raiders.

Removing the necessity to enter LFR as a raider, fine. Removing LFR as part of the progression chain (even though it currently isn't), fine. Removing LFR altogether? Nah, that's just lunacy.

[Baconeggcheese]

You still didn't answer the question.

I have, many times. There's a search function where one can just type in my name and see everything I've posted in this thread.

I've yet to see 1 good answer to that kind of question. How is removing LFR going to be good for the game?.

I've yet to see you do anything besides shit post, and not really add anything to the conversation. So there's that.

I too don't have overwatch beta though, they blue balled me with the beta weekend and left me hanging QQ.

[Deleted]

I have, many times. There's a search function where one can just type in my name and see everything I've posted in this thread.

I've yet to see you do anything besides shit post, and not really add anything to the conversation. So there's that.

Oh look. There's you not answering the question again

Regardless, if you call 'posting things you don't agree with' 'shitposting' then I guess I'm crowned king shitposter, because it's very obvious from almost all of your posts I've seen that you're just deliberately contrarian and unwilling to see someone else's argument without getting angry over it.

I'd go dig around for an example but, well... It's right there.

Oh and.. Not add anything to the conversation? I brought up the point that removing content isn't healthy for a game criticised for lacking content. All you did was call someone a shitposter and try to derail kinneer's line of questioning by discussing the semantics of the question instead of answering the actual question.

[Baconeggcheese]

because it's very obvious from almost all of your posts I've seen that you're just deliberately contrarian and unwilling to see someone else's argument without getting angry over it.

https://youtu.be/R2F_hGwD26g

[gunnmen01]

I got into this threat to late. but I totally agree they should get rid of mythic raids. Such a small number of people ever finish mythic before the next tier comes out, they should focus on creating more content for people to. Ilvl of gear should be the same as heroic and you can only raid it in guild groups. That way your not forced into picking up pugs to fill your group. Leaving LFR for the people who want to play without elitist's ruining the game.

[Deleted]

I got into this threat to late. but I totally agree they should get rid of mythic raids. Such a small number of people ever finish mythic before the next tier comes out, they should focus on creating more content for people to. Ilvl of gear should be the same as heroic and you can only raid it in guild groups. That way your not forced into picking up pugs to fill your group. Leaving LFR for the people who want to play without elitist's ruining the game.

You should read threads before posting this point was already rebutted.

If you remove mythic all you accomplish is getting rid of people who clear heroic in a patch cycle.

You remove lfr or at the very least make its rewards match its difficulty you open up all the content it makes trivial.

Trying to compare mythic to lfr doesn't make sense. Mythic gives proper risk vs rewards. Lfr in its current state simply doesn't.

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Oh look. There's you not answering the question again

Regardless, if you call 'posting things you don't agree with' 'shitposting' then I guess I'm crowned king shitposter, because it's very obvious from almost all of your posts I've seen that you're just deliberately contrarian and unwilling to see someone else's argument without getting angry over it.

I'd go dig around for an example but, well... It's right there.

Oh and.. Not add anything to the conversation? I brought up the point that removing content isn't healthy for a game criticised for lacking content. All you did was call someone a shitposter and try to derail kinneer's line of questioning by discussing the semantics of the question instead of answering the actual question.

People are not answering you because your argument is terrible.

The same logic can be applied to allow cheaters and bot users to stay in the game...

After all why remove people who edit files or use bots? They are just enjoying the content their own way.

[gunnmen01]

@Redtower. What I'm saying is that getting rid of LFR would be the same as getting rid of Mythic. I don't raid with a guild, I prefer LFR. There is plenty of room for both in the game. But people need to quit crying about LFR. It's here to stay so get over yourself and telling people how they need to play the game.

Getting rid of LFR will lose even more accts for blizzard, so by all means more people should cry about it.

[Deleted]

@Redtower. What I'm saying is that getting rid of LFR would be the same as getting rid of Mythic. I don't raid with a guild, I prefer LFR. There is plenty of room for both in the game. But people need to quit crying about LFR. It's here to stay so get over yourself and telling people how they need to play the game.

Getting rid of LFR will lose even more accts for blizzard, so by all means more people should cry about it.

Here is the thing. There not the same.

Mythic is the top of the pile. It doesn't undercut any other content it is the end of the line...

The problem with lfr is it butchers all content but raiding.

Reps,daillies,dungeons, and even crafting to a extent all are sacrificed to keep lfr alive. If lfr was to properly fit into the game it would need to drop 620 and 625 gear.

The problem isn't with lfr but rather how it is artificially propped up. Blizzard has said if heroic dungeons gave loot above lfr they would kill it.

LFR in order to fit into the game properly needs to be placed just above normal dungeons and have all quest and valor style rewards stripped from it.

[Baconeggcheese]

@Redtower. What I'm saying is that getting rid of LFR would be the same as getting rid of Mythic. I don't raid with a guild, I prefer LFR. There is plenty of room for both in the game.

See... because so few people are able to actually do mythic, it affects a proportional part of the player base whether or not it exists.

LFR affects literally everyone who cares about doing end game pve, regardless of whether or not they actually enjoy LFR. LFR undercuts open world content, dungeons, basically all non-raid content that rewards gear by rewarding gear that is better than what you get from that content for significantly less effort than it takes to acquire gear from that content. If you have the ilvl to que into LFR, you no longer need to do any content under LFR for gear because you are guaranteed success in LFR and the gear you get from it is better.

Which is why comparing getting rid of LFR to getting rid of mythic is a false equivalence.

[Sixnalia]

I'd personally like to see LFR be harder than it is now, such as MoP where some mechanics actually had to be mentioned/discussed or groups had to be split up.

I actually dislike Normal mode, myself. It feels like an almost lower form than Flex from MoP. And recruits to our guild who have only done Normal, usually face some challenges when we do an alt night and bring them along for Heroics.(Iskar, Xhul, Zakuun, Gorefiend, Korm, Archimonde all have additional or augmented mechanics)

Ultimately, I'm not a huge fan of removing mechanics entirely from a fight. Even if you make them super weak, at least people would be aware the mechanic exists in a more serious state at a higher difficulty. So when they run it(and maybe watched a normal guide, not seeing a heroic), they know what to expect.

[gunnmen01]

LFR doesn't affect everything else in the game. If you don't want to do LFR, don't. If your in a guild or a raid team doing reg/heroic/mythic then the you don't need the gear. Leave LFR alone it doesn't affect you...

[Sansnom]

See there's the framing again, it's about enjoy vs not enjoy and people attacking peoples enjoyment and not looking at anything beyond that.

How about answering rather than dodging the question.

Just because someone enjoys something and that people can choose to or not to participate in it doesn't mean its healthy for the game, or even neutral for that matter.

Then please tell me what it does mean. As I said before, some people enjoy LFR. Some people considered it unhealthy for the game. And I ask the question again, why?

If you take that argument that something people enjoy can be considered unhealthy, then anything can fall under that premise. Raiding as a whole can be considered unhealthy, can it not, even though some people enjoy it.

[Deleted]

LFR doesn't affect everything else in the game. If you don't want to do LFR, don't. If your in a guild or a raid team doing reg/heroic/mythic then the you don't need the gear. Leave LFR alone it doesn't affect you...

This isn't true though...

The only bit of what you put down that applies is its effect on raiding...

Everything else has been sacrificed to keep lfr alive... I remember the game before lfr. Before everyone was expected to be on the same tier. I am sorry as lfr is it does a ton of damage to the game outside of raids.

It saddens me that lfr looks to be the quickest way to get artifact power in legion. Once more they are going to prop it up....

[Punisher069]

It saddens me that lfr looks to be the quickest way to get artifact power in legion. Once more they are going to prop it up....

I sure hope it is. It will give me a reason to play my alts since, most likely, it won't be for transmog like in MoP.

[Nubulous]

@Redtower. What I'm saying is that getting rid of LFR would be the same as getting rid of Mythic. I don't raid with a guild, I prefer LFR. There is plenty of room for both in the game. But people need to quit crying about LFR. It's here to stay so get over yourself and telling people how they need to play the game.

Getting rid of LFR will lose even more accts for blizzard, so by all means more people should cry about it.

You know there is this thing called group finder right....where you can play with other people...without a guild.....I basically used it to do Highmaul and BRF full heroic, and Tyrant, Mannoroth and Archiomonde Heroic since my guild was slow in progression at the time.

With Group Finder being how it is now LFR is obsolete and not needed. I am baffled as to how people actually ENJOY doing LFR. Do people really like doing LFR? It actually makes them happy? Your personal performance means jack crap and you can ignore almost every mechanic. It literally is a step up from forming a raid and hitting the dummies in warspear. Not to mention the fights take forever because people hit like wet noodles its boring af

I wish they would just can it and make Normal easier so people can have their casual fun beer drinking raid during the week ALONG with introducing either a 10 man raid here or there that is somewhat easy or some new 5 mans throughout the expansion.

[MoanaLisa]

But we haven't gotten "more" as we were promised, we got the same amount.

"but then you'd have gotten even less even though he was very specific about saying it justifies more and not the same amount!"

*has same conversation in a circle for the umpteenth time*

*will repeat again soon™*

Read what I wrote carefully. I didn't say at all that there were more raids. What I said and is still true whether you want to admit it or not is this: LFR allows more people to see raids so the raiding budget is bigger. Without LFR less people will see raids and the raiding budget will diminish. It's really simple. Twisting it like I said there were more raids than in the past is misunderstanding what I wrote.

[gunnmen01]

Nothing is taken out of the game to prop up LFR. People are butt hurt about LFR because of what Ghostcrawler said years ago. People are butt hurt because they think they are better than someone that only does LFR.

[Punisher069]

You know there is this thing called group finder right....where you can play with other people...without a guild.....I basically used it to do Highmaul and BRF full heroic, and Tyrant, Mannoroth and Archiomonde Heroic since my guild was slow in progression at the time.

With Group Finder being how it is now LFR is obsolete and not needed. I am baffled as to how people actually ENJOY doing LFR. Do people really like doing LFR? It actually makes them happy? Your personal performance means jack crap and you can ignore almost every mechanic. It literally is a step up from forming a raid and hitting the dummies in warspear. Not to mention the fights take forever because people hit like wet noodles its boring af

I wish they would just can it and make Normal easier so people can have their casual fun beer drinking raid during the week.

I am baffled people enjoy pvp, but then I remember different strokes for different folks.

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Twisting it like I said there were more raids than in the past is misunderstanding what I wrote.

Something something framing the argument.

[Deleted]

Read what I wrote carefully. I didn't say at all that there were more raids. What I said and is still true whether you want to admit it or not is this: LFR allows more people to see raids so the raiding budget is bigger. Without LFR less people will see raids and the raiding budget will diminish. It's really simple. Twisting it like I said there were more raids than in the past is misunderstanding what I wrote.

There isn't a way to prove this..

Using this logic did wrath have five times the budget dedicated to it that legion will?

For all we know raiding has had a static budget each expansion. To be completely frank trying to claim anything anout how blizzard spends its resources is pointless unless the speaker can prove they work a position inside of blizzard where they are privy to that info.

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Nothing is taken out of the game to prop up LFR. People are butt hurt about LFR because of what Ghostcrawler said years ago. People are butt hurt because they think they are better than someone that only does LFR.

It isn't but it is trivialized...

I would argue that is even more harmful then it not existing in the first place.

[Sansnom]

Everything else has been sacrificed to keep lfr alive... I remember the game before lfr. Before everyone was expected to be on the same tier. I am sorry as lfr is it does a ton of damage to the game outside of raids.

Well, actually I would say lots of things were sacrificed to keep raiding participation high and LFR is part of that goal.

Before LFR, people really had to be on the same tier in order raid. This is because find and forming groups for older tier were quite rare in my experience. The old ICC and Timeless dungeons were there to assist people to skip previous raid tier.