Legion hype lost! blizz takes too much time...

[Deleted]

Yeah somewhat. I am currently having a lot of time and think of using one of my tokens. But I know I will just do garrisons till it becomes boring after a few days (takes 1-5 days to get all wb cheers) and then stop playing...

[rda]

You are misusing the term "production quality". In a game, we can consider production quality from three different perspectives; dame design (story and mechanics), game development (engineering) and art design. For the latter two, Blizzard is still at the top. Network problems at launch were not related with production. It's simply lack of infrastructure.

Network problems at launch were related to the designers funneling everyone into the same phased location and forgetting that phases cost memory. The main problem could have been solved in a variety of ways, they ended adding a special queue. Additional infrastructure obviously helped, but it was mostly for overall help, without the queue no realistic amount of infrastructure would have helped.

Areas touched: design, engineering. Yes, that's production quality.

[Lei]

Either way, that was not the point of my post. I was not trying to say that they are or should be designing the game to be played like that. All I meant is just because some people feel "entitled" to have new content every X months, doesn't mean everyone who disagrees or takes it less seriously is a blind fanboy / whiteknight.

It's surprising to me that you still don't understand My last try:
Everything goes hand in hand. No new content -> people leave -> guilds struggle -> friends of these people quit -> friends of those people's friends quit -> the game is a big ghost town. No new content -> less news -> less streams -> less enthusiasm towards the game -> people move on to other games (for good) -> people stop trusting in the devs that they can produce a good game -> people don't buy the new expac till it proves to be good -> people don't come back for the new expac -> blizz gets less and less money -> they produce less and less content for the leftover people beucase it just doesn't worth it.

edit: It's not about feeling entitled to new content. It's simply about how mmos work, and devs sabotaging themselves all the time, for years now with 1 year droughts.

People is what keeps games alive. And people tend to stay in a game which gives them fresh stuff every once in a while. in an mmo it's around every 4-5-6 months.
People LOVED wildstar, it was the best game for MANY of them (I never liked the art style or the dev's PoV, but apparently it was a good game). But as the hype died down and people left, and there were no content patches, wildstar is near to be shut down as I read. Do you want to happen it to wow? I don't. Would you join to wildstar today, knowing that they are this close to being shut down? Invest money into it with the thought that you are throwing your money directly into a trash can? Who will come back (and stay) for wow if the game is in it's current state? We will see at Legion's launch I guess.

[unbound]

While the hype might be gone for you, it doesn't really matter. Blizz generated a bunch of hype early to get a cash grab (via pre-order spikes...for clarity, it doesn't bother me that Blizz does this, but it does bother me that far too many people don't understand what is actually going on).

I would expect another wave of hype from Blizz when closed beta starts via their volunteer channels (i.e. players who love all things Blizz) who post up wonderful things about their experience. The next wave will come from open beta because the vast majority of people will have already invested (at least emotionally if not financially) into the notion that Legion will be the best...they will rationalize their experience to match that investment.

I personally don't see any objective information that says Legion will truly be better, and I've seen several objective pieces of information that says Legion will be another lazy development cycle (not a lot of raids, no more dungeons than in the past, only one weapon per class/spec, further reduced skills). But I understand and respect Blizz's hype machine. Blizz will be fine...the game will not.

[karumayu]

I think the long period of alpha/beta news during a period of no new content or activity in the current expansion is a double edged sword. Sure, the hype is built and it is maintained by a steady streams of news of development, but it also informs the player of too much of the expansion. When we are overfed with information, the sense of new or mystery is lost when you actually play the game. Although the player can refrain from viewing any of the news of the upcoming expansion, but with such a long period of inactivity after every expansion, most of the players who are currently playing or considering coming back are left on various fan sites and forums for any news that might excite them a bit for the game.

[Biggles Worth]

Much smaller dev companies produce much better games (entire games, not xpacs) much quicker. Sick and tired of blizz excuses and lazyness, legion should be out months ago!

over and out, peace to all who keep holding on.

Lets be real, there was no hype.

[Kuntantee]

Network problems at launch were related to the designers funneling everyone into the same phased location and forgetting that phases cost memory. The main problem could have been solved in a variety of ways, they ended adding a special queue. Additional infrastructure obviously helped, but it was mostly for overall help, without the queue no realistic amount of infrastructure would have helped.

Areas touched: design, engineering. Yes, that's production quality.

You think using fancy words is going to make you sound technical? You are decorating your assumption with fancy words. Works on laymen, not on me. It has nothing to do with production quality. I don't want to write a wall of text explaining how this is an assumption and how your logic is flawed, even under the assumption, but I won't.

[Deleted]

Much smaller dev companies produce much better games (entire games, not xpacs) much quicker. Sick and tired of blizz excuses and lazyness, legion should be out months ago!

over and out, peace to all who keep holding on.

You should try harder,this is not how things are done.

[Kolvarg]

It's surprising to me that you still don't understand

Well, what's not to understand that despite what your opinion would mean for the game (less or more players, less or more healthy game/community), it doesn't make you a fanboy/whiteknight? =P It's not about advocating content droughts. It's that one is not an idiot/sheeple just for not getting too worked up about it, and for being ok with taking a break or just waiting for new content.

And in the end, a game lasting longer/having more players for a longer time doesn't mean it's a better game.

Everything goes hand in hand. No new content -> people leave -> guilds struggle -> friends of these people quit -> friends of those people's friends quit -> the game is a big ghost town. No new content -> less news -> less streams -> less enthusiasm towards the game -> people move on to other games (for good) -> people stop trusting in the devs that they can produce a good game -> people don't buy the new expac till it proves to be good -> people don't come back for the new expac -> blizz gets less and less money -> they produce less and less content for the leftover people beucase it just doesn't worth it.

People is what keeps games alive.

Sure, and it sounds wonderful and simple in theory, but it really isn't. And if anything proves that, is that the game is alive and well and has been despite content droughts and big periods of controversy, for half its lifespan now. Sure, it has a lot less subs than it once had, there's no denying. But can we be sure that wouldn't happen either way, even if they had chosen different design directions and released more content? As far as I'm concerned it's as possible that the game would still be at 10~12M as it is that it would be below 2~3M if it hadn't changed so much - We'll never know for sure what hypothetical scenarios would have meant for the game's success/health. And honestly it's risky to go with sub numbers as "evidence", as we've seen before sub drops nearly as big during periods full of patches (ie 5.0 to 5.4; went from 10M to 7.8M) as during periods of content drought (ie 5.4 till before 6.0/WoD announcements; went from 7.8M to 6.8M)

I mean, if people is what keeps the game alive, then social features and the type and extension of content is much more important than the ammount of content, no?

Because arguably all they needed to make the same content WoD have last double or more would be to remove accessibility and ease of "completion". Ie only Heroic or only Mythic raid mode, reducing the rate of drops (1-2 items for 20 people per boss), gating/attunement mechanics, no matchmaking, reducing the rates of exp, reputations, drops and currencies (daily quests only giving 50 or 100 rep instead of 250-500), giving enemies more HP, and so many other ways. It would still be the same exact ammount and overall quality of content, just extended to catter to that type of audience.

And again it wouldn't be wrong or objectivelly worse, just different.

All in all, yes, people are important, yes more / more frequent content helps keep people, but it isn't black & white: so do new expansions. New content, ie patches, for many people, is just "more of the same". More quests, more dungeons, more raids. Maybe some small UI improvments or a battleground. People will leave eventually either way, even if we had a big patch every 2 months, for other reasons (real life, getting tired of the game, wanting to do other things / play other games), and they can still trigger that "domino effect" you describe.

A new expansion though always comes with something different, new features, new systems, new continent, new levels, class changes, sometimes a new class or race. That helps keep the game fresh much more than simple patches.

So certainly a balance between patches and expansions would be ideal, but what ratio is ideal? How can we say with certainty and with no doubts that just more content would "save" the game from "dying"? How do we know for sure if in the long run just having new expansions with a lot of content more frequently, even if that means content droughts, isn't actually better in the long run?

I get your points, truly, just don't understand how it can be so black & white for you. I agree with you, and it seems we share a similar taste to what the "ideal" WoW would be, but I certainly don't believe I "know" the way to "fix" or "save" WoW =P

In a perfect world they would have almost completly seperate teams working concurrently on patches and the next expansion, but sadly that doesn't happen and probably never will, and likely the profits (even long-term) wouldn't justify the cost; no way to be sure.

[Lei]

You think using fancy words is going to make you sound technical? You are decorating your assumption with fancy words. Works on laymen, not on me. It has nothing to do with production quality. I don't want to write a wall of text explaining how this is an assumption and how your logic is flawed, even under the assumption, but I won't.

Sorry but what? There was that video in which a server engineer guy tells a story about how he was told by the devs that they want to create million instance servers and how he told it's a bit edgy, but he was told to do it anyways. And then we had WoD's start.............

I will try to find it, I think it was a behind a scene video or something.

[Kuntantee]

Sorry but what? There was that video in which a server engineer guy tells a story about how he was told by the devs that they want to create million instance servers and how he told it's a bit edgy, but he was told to do it anyways. And then we had WoD's start.............

I will try to find it, I think it was a behind a scene video or something.

This is related with what the guy I quoted said in what way? He used the word "phase" which is neither an instance nor a server, technically. A phase is a unique state of the game world. You can handle each phase in a different instance of the world with internal parameters, but that's just one solution.

The disaster at launch was due to high number of players trying to access the game at the same time.

[charbrec]

I dont really know whats keeping them, maybe its the general feeling of, "if we fuck this up, we are over", so they make damn sure its perfect...

WoW isn't their money maker anymore. They could but out another WoD and do just fine. They will keep making Xpacs until they simply don't want to continue.

[Lei]

So certainly a balance between patches and expansions would be ideal, but what ratio is ideal? How can we say with certainty and with no doubts that just more content would "save" the game from "dying"? How do we know for sure if in the long run just having new expansions with a lot of content more frequently, even if that means content droughts, isn't actually better in the long run?

What does it mean "just having new expansions more frequently"? We get one every 2 years. Blizz wanted to pump out yearly expansions, but they simply can't do it. Many people expressed that yearly expansions feel too rushy: no time to settle down in the current world, no time to feel the current danger, skippers skip too much in short time. And most importantly BLIZZ CAN'T DO IT! Creating a timeless isle/isle of thunder (aka a patch) is SO much easier than creating a draeor or broken isles (aka a whole continent with it's all inhabitants and lore and everything) EVERY YEAR. I don't even want them to try it, because I think the quality would suffer for it. It is Blizz who is obsessed with it, and they prove that they just can't do it. But you know what? IT'S FINE! You know what the problem is? That they can't even keep up with their previous performance. Legion is still coming after 2 years, and WoD has had ONE content patch. Wod came out after 2 yeras of mist, but at least has had frequent content patches till SoO. See how is it showing a declining trend? Legion is blizz's last chance to redeem themselves, at least that is what I think and what I read from other longterm players.

Secondly what does it mean "just having new expansions more frequently ... with droughts"? How can something have drought if you pump out expansions more frequently?

[dejaa]

Another thing is the fact that Alpha isn't really that well polished yet, and the fact that its still officially an alpha is also quite telling. The most recent reply calling it "Early alpha" is for sure also a big red flag.

March is half done, leaving 6.5 months until the end of September, their projected latest possible release date. That's telling in and of itself. They were testing raids before all classes and specs were available for testing. These two issues along, among many more, do not bode well.

When Legion was announced at games-con in Germany back in August, i figured they did it, because they couldn't wait til Blizzcon, simply put "cus it would be out too soon after the announcement, and that beta would be available at blizzcon". Boy was i mistaken... Theres been literally no reason for that early announcement, it created hype for something that was over a year off, something i think does more harm than good.

Unless the new model is to hype the living crap out of it in order to get a big boost at the beginning with the box revenues and provide little to no additional content during the course of the expansion. I.e., the same kind of front loaded, two raid tier expansion that WoD is. I honestly think that is their new model.

In the real world people that fail in their jobs get fired. At Blizzard, they seem to get more responsibility so their f-ups become truly epic.

[rda]

You think using fancy words is going to make you sound technical? You are decorating your assumption with fancy words. Works on laymen, not on me. It has nothing to do with production quality. I don't want to write a wall of text explaining how this is an assumption and how your logic is flawed, even under the assumption, but I won't.

LOL

I am a dev. You might be one, too, but don't pretend for a second that you are for real and others just "sound technical". What I said is correct. And yes, that's production quality. When half of the players are stuck with freezes / heavy lag for several weeks *due to the designers being stupid and nobody catching that during testing* = avoidable, that's bad production quality.

I get the point you are trying to make, that in some aspects Blizzard are looking good. Ie, their engineering is doing a good job (you also bundle art here, fine, whatever). I mostly *agree* with this, but I would note that (a) a lot of games are great on the engineering side as well, that's not unusual, and (b) in the end, that's not a lot.

[Sencha]

What feature were you hyped for?

Legion will be like WoD with even less abilities per spec.

[dejaa]

WoW isn't their money maker anymore. They could but out another WoD and do just fine. They will keep making Xpacs until they simply don't want to continue.

Hearthstone, HOTS, etc., may be making them a lot more money for much less effort, but they also depend on wow for cross-pollination of both players and content. They would not have stood on their own and I don't think that's been adequately considered.

[Kolvarg]

What does it mean "just having new expansions more frequently"? We get one every 2 years. Blizz wanted to pump out yearly expansions, but they simply can't do it. Many people expressed that yearly expansions feel too rushy: no time to settle down in the world, no time to feel the danger, skippers skip too much in short time. And most importantly BLIZZ CAN'T DO IT! Creating a timeless isle is SO much easier than creating a draeor or broken isles EVERY YEAR. I don't even want them to try it, because I think the quality will suffer for it. It is Blizz who is obsessed with it, and they prove that they just can't do it. It's fine! But you know what is the problem? That they can't even keep up with their previous performance. Legion is still coming after 2 years, and WoD has had ONE content patch. Wod came out after 2 yeras of mist, but at least has had frequent content patches till SoO. See how is it showing a declining trend? Legion is blizz's last chance to redeem themselves, at least that is what I think and what I read from other longterm players.

Secondly what does it mean "just having new expansions more frequently ... with droughts"? How can something have drought if you pump out expansions more frequently?

By that I mean releasing a "final patch" and swapping everyone to the new expansion (and therefore having a drought between the last patch and the next xpac) still means the new expansion will come earlier than it would if they had kept a part of the team working on patches well until the expansion was ready for release.

I agree, WoD defenitely had less content than it "should", and I certainly would love richer and more frequent patches.

Disagree on the declining trend. Well until the drought MoP did about as well or better than Cata and even previous xpacs. Might have not been as lasting as previous content for multiple reasons, but I'd say the overall/global ammount of content was at least par with Blizz's history.

For me it was not only the whole "yearly expansion" not working very well, but also this:

Old engine is my guess.

Even for the long-time WoW devs it must be pretty tough and unnefficient to develop content and features for an engine that first started being built in the early 2000s (2001 it was already friends&family alpha I believe). For newer devs that perhaps were used to more modern engines, it will be even worse.

So not only as time goes by (the more they try to keep the game "modern" in graphics, responsiveness, etc) but also as more experienced Devs get moved to other projects and replaced with new devs, the slower it gets. IF the team remained relatively stable since the big increase they talked about of early WoD development, we should see an improvement in Legion over WoD - But chances are the trend will be slower release of content until they rebuild the game on a new engine as part of an xpac, make "WoW 2", or simply stop developing new features / updating the game and focus just on new content (zones, quests, dungeons, raids) in the existant systems and features.

- - - Updated - - -

WoW isn't their money maker anymore. They could but out another WoD and do just fine. They will keep making Xpacs until they simply don't want to continue.

It might not be the most profitable (ie difference between costs of production/maintenance vs earnings), but it still certainly is their top grossing game.

[rda]

This is related with what the guy I quoted said in what way? He used the word "phase" which is neither an instance nor a server, technically. A phase is a unique state of the game world. You can handle each phase in a different instance of the world with internal parameters, but that's just one solution.

The disaster at launch was due to high number of players trying to access the game at the same time.

Yes, I used the word "phase" as a shortcut to "something that costs memory", because that was the important factor. Any problems with that?

The disaster at launch was due to garrisons being too heavy / designed too dumb for where they were in the story. Too many players (as in, more than expected) was icing on the cake, the game would have collapsed with much smaller amounts of players.

[fooliuscaesar13]

Much smaller dev companies produce much better games (entire games, not xpacs) much quicker. Sick and tired of blizz excuses and lazyness, legion should be out months ago!

over and out, peace to all who keep holding on.

Since you're obviously an expert game developer with a catalog of success stories, please let me know what blockbuster mmo you're working on so I can play it, since Blizzard isn't meeting your expectations and I should listen to a half-assed commentary from someone that I don't know.