[Legion] Shadow Priest Discussion

[Djriff]

While I agree with a the vast majority of your points, there's a few errors.

Silence doesn't cost Insanity, you just need to have Insanity to use it.
Shadowmend costing Insanity is a good thing as it promotes player choice. It might be too much Insanity which could be fixed, but having the choice between should I keep pressure or pillar hump and heal right quick. Our dots will still be ticking and we can still use all of our other abilities just fine.
Shadowy Apparitions should grant Insanity when they spawn, not when they hit the target. That would fix a lot of problems with the passive in the first place.

[Ilir]

@l33t : dominate mind does work, it was me who reported but I think I tried to MC some mobs that were immune. I managed to MC some other dungeons mobs.
Just wanted to clarify that ^^

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Also... we will prolly lose our Dark Archangels wings I'm kinda sad about it. I really really really hope we'll have a glyph for it.

I also want a glyph to make our Voidform give us wings (like the boss in HFC, the one with the shadow phase and the felfire phase) instead of tentacles (some people really don't like tentacles).

[l33t]

While I agree with a the vast majority of your points, there's a few errors.

Silence doesn't cost Insanity, you just need to have Insanity to use it.
Shadowmend costing Insanity is a good thing as it promotes player choice. It might be too much Insanity which could be fixed, but having the choice between should I keep pressure or pillar hump and heal right quick. Our dots will still be ticking and we can still use all of our other abilities just fine.
Shadowy Apparitions should grant Insanity when they spawn, not when they hit the target. That would fix a lot of problems with the passive in the first place.

Which is, as far as I know, unknown whether it is a bug or not, so its 50/50 it would actually cost insanity.
While I do somewhat agree about shadowmend costs in pvp, I disagree for pve. I don't think I have to be punished to be able to survive in pve.
And the biggest problems is not one mechanic of one skill, but the absolute mindless process of slapping that skills together by Blizzard. I thought when a class gets a rework, devs should revisite its flaws and fix at least some of them. Which is not what's happening, amirite?

@l33t : dominate mind does work, it was me who reported but I think I tried to MC some mobs that were immune. I managed to MC some other dungeons mobs.
Just wanted to clarify that ^^

Also... we will prolly lose our Dark Archangels wings I'm kinda sad about it. I really really really hope we'll have a glyph for it.

I also want a glyph to make our Voidform give us wings (like the boss in HFC, the one with the shadow phase and the felfire phase) instead of tentacles (some people really don't like tentacles).

Well, okay then, I guess we can forget about Dominate mind not working Although I still find it insulting that an Outlaw rogue got a carbon copy of DM - while we lost our carbon copy of Vanish.

Glyphs are another negative things, yeah. Like, reflective shield, or mind blast one which snared target on crits...

[Djriff]

Huh, I thought I saw a blue post addressing that. I may be mistaken.
I respectfully disagree with you. Damage in PvE is much more predictable than in PvP. So much so that PW: S alone should be able to get you by. Additionally you can't forget the healing from Vamp Touch as well as VE (lol) that get provided to you. If you have to use it in a raid environment my logic is that a dead DPS does zero DPS. Doesn't make it balanced, but I'd argue it's a good idea to have a choice.
You're definitely right. Our class basically shifted from 5-6 core abilities to 2-3 different abilities along with the 5-6 core abilities. We got less interesting talent choices, and essentially play the same except we now have a tentacle form which looks pretty badass.

[l33t]

I respectfully disagree with you. Damage in PvE is much more predictable than in PvP. So much so that PW: S alone should be able to get you by. Additionally you can't forget the healing from Vamp Touch as well as VE (lol) that get provided to you. If you have to use it in a raid environment my logic is that a dead DPS does zero DPS. Doesn't make it balanced, but I'd argue it's a good idea to have a choice.

Its not like I think we should never heal ourselves. I just find it wrong that we not only have to stop doing damage, but also have to waste resource which is crucial to us dealing damage after we healed ourselves and continue dealing damage.

I miss desperate prayer already

[Kretan]

Its not like I think we should never heal ourselves. I just find it wrong that we not only have to stop doing damage, but also have to waste resource which is crucial to us dealing damage after we healed ourselves and continue dealing damage.

I miss desperate prayer already

To be fair shadowmend is really really strong. I think there is potential for the cost to provide interesting pvp gameplay.

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Its not like I think we should never heal ourselves. I just find it wrong that we not only have to stop doing damage, but also have to waste resource which is crucial to us dealing damage after we healed ourselves and continue dealing damage.

I miss desperate prayer already

To be fair shadowmend is really really strong. I think there is potential for the cost to provide interesting pvp gameplay. You can top yourself atm in a fear bomb from near zero hp. Of course you lose all insanity though.

[l33t]

To be fair shadowmend is really really strong. I think there is potential for the cost to provide interesting pvp gameplay. You can top yourself atm in a fear bomb from near zero hp. Of course you lose all insanity though.

I won't jugde its strength at least until the fabled self-healing nerf patch, tbh.

[Kretan]

I won't jugde its strength at least until the fabled self-healing nerf patch, tbh.

Excellent point. I didn't consider that. God I hope they are smart and let shadow keep the healing.

[snaxattax]

I wish we could summon big tentacles like Illaoi in loL that bitchslapped our ennemies.

and the sad thing is that'd be most similar to the affliction talent that gives them a 2nd pad target...

[Gnarilex]

Went back to see what was going on when they first previewed shadow priest, and I gotta say I wish they would go back to it.

Gameplay
We’ve long alluded to the Old God influences of Shadow Priests in their spells and abilities, and we’re making that more distinct in Legion.
A new resource, Insanity, provides a better fit for Shadow, having more granularity and gameplay that emphasizes the immense but fleeting power that the Void offers. Mind Blast, Shadow Word: Pain, and Vampiric Touch will build Insanity. Reaching maximum Insanity will transform Shadowform into Voidform, giving the Shadow Priest access to stronger Void magic, but it is unable to be maintained indefinitely. This should make for interesting gameplay as Shadow Priests try to maintain the height of their Insanity as long as possible to prey on the minds of their enemies.

While not under the effects of Insanity, Shadow Priests continue to rely heavily on abilities that inflict sustained damage over time. Finally, having turned away from the Light, Shadow Priests eschew such spells as Heal, Flash Heal, and Prayer of Mending. Power Word: Shield and Shadow Mend are their primary healing tools.

• Voidform

• Passive
• When you reach 100 Insanity, you enter Voidform, transforming your Mind spells into Void spells, and increasing your Shadow damage by 30%.
• While in Voidform, you gain 2% Haste every 1 sec. This Haste will also persist for 20 sec after Voidform ends.
• Voidform causes your Insanity to constantly drain, faster and faster, until completely drained, and Voidform ends.

• Mind Flay

• 40 yd range, Channeled
• Assault the target’s mind with Shadow energy, causing minor Shadow damage over 3 sec and slowing their movement speed by 50%.
• While in Voidform, transforms into Void Flay, which also extends Shadow Word: Pain by 3 sec.

• Mind Blast

• 40 yd range, 1.5 sec cast, 9 sec cooldown
• Blasts the target’s mind for strong Shadow damage.
• Generates 15 Insanity.
• While in Voidform, transforms into Void Blast, which has a 4.5 sec cooldown, and also extends Vampiric Touch by 3 sec.

• Vampiric Touch

• 40 yd range, 1.5 sec cast
• A touch of darkness that causes huge Shadow damage over 24 sec, and heals the Priest for each point of damage dealt.
• If Vampiric Touch is dispelled, the dispeller flees in Horror for 3 sec.
• Each time Vampiric Touch deals damage, it generates 3 Insanity.

• Shadow Word: Pain

• 40 yd range, Instant
• A word of darkness that causes minor Shadow damage instantly, and an additional huge amount of damage over 18 sec.
• Each time Shadow Word: Pain deals damage, it generates 3 Insanity, and has a 10% chance to reset the cooldown of Mind Blast.

• Mastery: Madness

• Increases the damage and Insanity generation of your Mind Blast, Shadow Word: Pain, Vampiric Touch, and Shadow Word: Death by 20% (with Mastery from typical gear).

Additionally, to give you an idea of how some talents may build upon this, here’s an example of one of their Shadow-specific talents:

• Oblivion

• Instant, 2 min cooldown
• Let the power of the void flow through you, instantly generating 100 Insanity.

[Kretan]

I want the void flay, void blast, void sear idea to come back.....even if it is just a graphical update.

[Licketysplit77]

Honestly, it is not a one thing or two, but a huge list.

Starting from artifact. Me, for example, fo some reason thought we'd get a scythe, and since I'm a sucker for scythes as a weapon, that was a huge disappointment. Just imagine your shadow priest with a god fucking damn awesome SCYTHE with a blade made of smoking void... I just had a nerdgasm simply imagining it. Now, you can imagine how disappointed I was when I've seen - what - a fucking DAGGER. Which is cool lorewise, but visually it sucks, and transmog restrictions add to this A LOT. Like, if only I could transmog it to mace, it would instantly be 70% less bad... but... But.

Then, honestly, it just ran down the hill.

We had Oblivion, a real dps cd I've dreamed about since Cata. Removed. That was second huge hit on me wanting to play shadow in legion. Yes I know, SWV kinda does the same - but it is a talent that steals our awesome execute, and I don't think I want to trade my execute for being able to burst when fight starts, not 20 secs after.

We had instant mind blast, the one and only thing that made shadow priest's gameplay in WoD actually awesome. Removed.

We had Spectral guise, feathers, reflective shield, cascade, halo, DS, Fear ward, Leap of faith, Void tendrils, DP, Desperate prayer/Shield, bonus armor on shadowform, PWF buff, resurrection and levitate removed (yes I know res and levi is back, so what? the list is HUGE even without that)

We have unimpressive spell visuals. In an expansion when every spec gets new visuals, and melees are even getting true abilities animations so they look like badass slasher heroes.

We finally had a defensive which was not silencing us for 100% of its uptime - now its gone, and we start with a dispersion nerfed for 30% for god knows how long.

We had a freaking awesome mastery... removed, replaced by generic stuff. Nope, I can't even call it generic, since I know no other class whose mastery buffs the damage of its three spells - and that's all. Imagine Fire mage getting mastery that increases damage of Fireball, Scorch and Dragon's breath. Or a fury warrior's mastery increasing damage of Bloodthirst and Wild strike. Cool, right? Nope, it sucks. Our mastery sucks as well. Its worse than a generic +% to spell school damage...

PvP talent tree got a lot of stuff I'd love to have in pve instead.

Our last talent tier, don't even get me started on it. StM the Void Entropy v2.0 in terms of usability, and mind spike which was stolen from us as well. And it is the last talent tier, the one which should give best stuff, the stuff which determines the way you play, which shapes you as a spec.

Serious lack of tools to properly respond to game encounters. I've already had my share of fun nuking one mob in a pack of five during all WoD, because that way I was dealing more damage than spamming mind sear the abomination of a skill. I don't want to continue lacking proper tools. I don't want to struggle beating fucking tank in challenge modes on damage for the third expansion in a row.

Dots were generating Insanity, like it should be. Than it was removed. And then it was placed as a bandaid fix in a tier set bonus. No commentaries on this one. The spec just got a fabled "rework" damnit, and we already get bandaid fixes... unbelieveable? nope, usual stuff. Then Blizzard started pushing AS, while still not fixed the main problem of apparitions AKA fucking travel time...

Shadowy insight as a talent... seriously, Blizzard? That talent was not good for ages, like since early Cata or something??

Insanity cost for utility spells, like mass dispel or silence. Even our fabled oh-so-strong heal costs insanity...

Dominate mind that is not working on mobs in Legion dungeons (reported by some alpha players).

SWD hits like wet noodles.

Nerfed VE to the point its not worth to use it as a raid cd. Nerfed SoI to the point its not worth it to refresh dots before going to VF.

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So, what do we have in the end? Who knows, maybe there is something huge coming in the next builds, like suddenly Blizzard are listening and fix all the problems shadow priests had for ages... maybe. But I seriously doubt it. I bet, all we have ahead is nerfs: -15% to swp damage, -20% to shadow mend, -15% to mind blast. And, when legion arises, chances are high we will be just where we always were: mediocre on single target, good on spread cleave, suck at everything else.

And that's not enough for me anymore. I want to play class that is at least exellent in one of possible game scenarios and good in one more. Which is, as it looks, almost any other damage dealing spec. Which is a shame, since I loved void form visuals as well as priest's new tier. But that's not enough

TL_DR Sorry for long, somewhat hysterical post. But I've spoken from my heart.

Im agreeing with a lot in this post. from the promise of a major rework to an addition of a handful of weak new spells , the removal of our utility and uniqueness , the class so far is looking really disappointing.
from a die hard shadow priest main, being invested in the class, my character, the lore , everything surrounding a Spriest i'm considering moving away and into legion with warlock
Check mmo champion and othe sites daily in the hope to see some positive changes, updates, additions that will warrant not leaving the class i love.

[deviantcultist]

MindFlay got some changes but it's still so subpar.

When did it get changed? I hope you don't mean back in Wotlk.

[davesignal]

While I agree with a the vast majority of your points, there's a few errors.

Silence doesn't cost Insanity, you just need to have Insanity to use it.
Shadowmend costing Insanity is a good thing as it promotes player choice. It might be too much Insanity which could be fixed, but having the choice between should I keep pressure or pillar hump and heal right quick. Our dots will still be ticking and we can still use all of our other abilities just fine.
Shadowy Apparitions should grant Insanity when they spawn, not when they hit the target. That would fix a lot of problems with the passive in the first place.

Shadow Mend already promotes player choice by virtue of the fact that it costs a GCD and provides no direct DPS benefit (unlike, say, current PW:S with Reflective Shield). Adding an Insanity cost on top is purely punitive, especially since it's a cost that is ignored if you're actually out of Insanity. It would actually be more defensible if the Insanity cost was there was a method to keep Shadow Priests from being able to spam it without respect to any resource costs, limiting the amount of off healing they can provide, but it isn't.

[Annesh]

So how are we going to compete with these classes that have proper aoe, cleave and equal or better single target

No single class should have this. This is the definition of unbalanced. You can achieve it through spec swapping, but having it all on one fight is not something that is going to happen.

Which is why it should be talent-based for Shadow. Something similar to WoD 100 talents, except well-designed. One single-target talent, one multi-dotting/cleave talent, one for pure/burst aoe. Whichever talent we select, we can compete with the best in that area, and we're roughly 10-20% behind the best in other areas.

This sounds horrendously difficult to implement and keep tuned correctly, but I think it's the ideal design.

[Ilir]

When did it get changed? I hope you don't mean back in Wotlk.

I meant Wotlk

Also it saddens me to see that their initial plan was to make Shadowy Insight baseline... but they took it away...

OR maybe the class preview they showed us is for the "beta" patch that'll polly be out next week ?

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hahahah that moment when demo warlocks get better looking dagger artifact than us even tho it's not their main artefact.

:')

[deviantcultist]

I meant Wotlk

Also it saddens me to see that their initial plan was to make Shadowy Insight baseline... but they took it away...

OR maybe the class preview they showed us is for the "beta" patch that'll polly be out next week ?

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hahahah that moment when demo warlocks get better looking dagger artifact than us even tho it's not their main artefact.

:')

Shadowy Insight always felt like a baseline thing, not sure why it's still a talent.

According to the preview, I believe that Oblivion might not really make it as a mechanic due to the Insanity tuning, but it can still make it as a Shadow variation of Power Infusion. If they do stand by spec identity, something like that has to happen.

As for our dear Void spells, they even confirmed it via another blue that even Mind Sear gets a variation. Hell, even the icons labelled as Void spells were in last build. Cannot see how they can fail this without being too irresponsible.

[Kilee25]

I don't understand why they made such cool notes in the preview then pulled back so hard on it. To be quite frank most of the hype and excitement during that blizcon window was because of the things that got taken away. I distinctly remember people saying things like "wow finally a cooldown" or "wow SI is base" etc.. After taking it all away it feels like that entire preview was just a PR stunt or something. I guess we'll never know the whole story, but it just seems so fishy to me... I mean, the fact that they were even in there to begin with says that there's at least someone at Bliz who is aware of what things people have been wanting for the class for a long time.

[snaxattax]

also the way mastery scaled in the preview meant our rotation would change over time to make us feel stronger.

but, yeah, that's what I meant when I said most positive changes were reverted - and it just makes no sense. if it weren't for the fact we're currently overtuned single target shadow would be just trash. once they retune for single target (you're kidding yourself if you don't think they will), shadow will be completely reliant on OP set bonuses (good luck) to be useful in most raid settings.

[Kaesebrezen]

I don't understand why they made such cool notes in the preview then pulled back so hard on it.

Because Voidform and Insanity as they were in the preview did not matter at all. You pressed your buttons the same we, regardless of being inside and outside of Voidform.

Well, that's still the same now. Just that you have to press Void Bolt. Voidform and Insanity simple do not matter at any point. (only in a few cases were actively using Voidform will give you a benefit).

also the way mastery scaled in the preview meant our rotation would change over time to make us feel stronger.

That Insanity multiplier on Mastery was the epitome of breakpoints, even worse than Haste Breakpoints.

Unless you get an additional GCD in Voidform, or cut out an GCD outside of Voidform, that Insanity multiplier had exactly zero impact on your damage.