[RET] LEGION mobility issues aka: I catch people how again?

[Morally Grey Storm]

Wierd, I had you pegged more for an all black wearing, baggy Jean donning, emo kid that hangs out at the nearest Starbucks talking about how futile life is with your friends. Guess I was wrong there.
Yes, tea is very soothing, maybe drink some before posting?

It's me soothed alright.
But hey, I was wrong too, I assumed you're a decent person to have a dispute with.
Everyone makes mistakes, oh well ;[

[Eapoe]

It's me soothed alright.
But hey, I was wrong too, I assumed you're a decent person to have a dispute with.
Everyone makes mistakes, oh well ;[

You're not disputing anything though. All of your posts are just complaint after complaint and acting like a 10 year old who got his bicycle taken away. You've had very little, if any, constructive feedback to anything anyone has said. You just post a sarcastic, angry rant about how their opinion or fact based data is complete crap because "you just know it's crap."
I understand you are upset about the spec and the way it's playing out, it's also okay to express you are upset about it, but the way you are doing it garners such little respect that how can anyone take it as anything other than the example I just typed out about the 10 year old?

Please refrain from provoking other forum users, and derailing the thread.

[Morally Grey Storm]

You're not disputing anything though. All of your posts are just complaint after complaint and acting like a 10 year old who got his bicycle taken away. You've had very little, if any, constructive feedback to anything anyone has said. You just post a sarcastic, angry rant about how their opinion or fact based data is complete crap because "you just know it's crap."
I understand you are upset about the spec and the way it's playing out, it's also okay to express you are upset about it, but the way you are doing it garners such little respect that how can anyone take it as anything other than the example I just typed out about the 10 year old?

I dont remember paying a pchychiatrist for a session and I'm damn sure you ain't one so stop acting like one.
I couldn't give a flying feth about your opinion or expression you have of me. Put me on ignore and feth off with you.
Good day.

Please refrain from provoking other forum users, and derailing the thread.

[Eapoe]

I dont remember paying a pchychiatrist for a session and I'm damn sure you ain't one so stop acting like one.
I couldn't give a flying feth about your opinion or expression you have of me. Put me on ignore and feth off with you.
Good day.

Please refrain from provoking other forum users, and derailing the thread.

About mobility, as seen from previous posts and other forums, it is not as bad as believed.

[ruiizu]

About mobility, as seen from previous posts and other forums, it is not as bad as believed.

Looks like two of the people posting here both have better mobility than Paladins. =B Hope there's a new build soon, cause there hasn't been much to discuss yet.

[Deleted]

Looks like two of the people posting here both have better mobility than Paladins. =B Hope there's a new build soon, cause there hasn't been much to discuss yet.

I agree, if we dont see much change tonight, this is the way its gonna stay. lol they probably think were "fine"

[ruiizu]

I agree, if we dont see much change tonight, this is the way its gonna stay. lol they probably think were "fine"

I draw a huge line of distinction between (numerically and functionally usable" vs. "enjoyable to play." Just being viable doesn't make something fun, and that's what I'm worried about with Ret. I've no doubt we'll probably have some kind of viability with our current setup, I'm just skeptical how much fun it'll be.

Dragonslaying, at least, is not likely to be an issue.

[Snegovik]

I agree, if we dont see much change tonight, this is the way its gonna stay. lol they probably think were "fine"

I thought blizzard always stated "rets are fine, spec in a perfect spot" yet we are fail XD

[rubenmsalles]

New build. new step in a right directions
please, if someone of you have alpha acces, please make a post about it
we will love to heard about it

[Teleros]

From the other thread:

Also, let's try to maximise paladin mobility for PvP:

Holy: Divine Steed, 2x Blessings of Freedom with +20% speed, Cleanse magic effects.
Protection: Divine Steed with 1/2 CD & 20% less damage taken, Blessing of Freedom with +20% speed, and one of the following:

• 50% sprint for 6sec after using Judgement
• Double duration Divine Steed with CC immunity & knockback on enemies you move through
• Hammer of the Righteous grants 10yd charge

Retribution: Divine Steed OR Seal of Light, Blessing of Freedom with +20% speed.

Honestly, I look at that list and wonder if I was supposed to swap the Prot & Ret talents around.

[Deleted]

Also from the other thread, the thematic suits in here better anyway:

I seriously wouldn't like exactly this upgrade of Steed for Ret, it feels Prot (reduces dmg taken, cc immune) and should stay theirs.
What I DO would like is the sprint after Judgment and Steed baseline, aswell as the option to replace Steed with a medium cd gap closer as a PvP talent. The free talent slot on the Lv90 row could be filled with a support utility talent that improves our other blessings, which we lack in our talent tree. Possibilities were reduced cooldown, same effect for us with 50% duration, movement speed increase for the one blessed for the duration (in this case remove Unbound Freedom from PvP, nice place for steed upgrade), something like that.

Well okay, yes it's nice for Prot, my point was more about the melee DPS spec being less mobile than the tank spec (and the healing spec). That's just weird in my book.

Point already noted This is actually the reason most people on the alpha board are bewildered about pala mobility.

[ruiizu]

Also from the other thread, the thematic suits in here better anyway:

Point already noted This is actually the reason most people on the alpha board are bewildered about pala mobility.

I think Blizzard probably was envisioning WC2 Paladins when they thought of Prot (big knight on a horse riding into battle with sword and shield). You can't really use a two handed sword very effectively on a horse lol.

That's why we need to leap through the air with wings of vengeance.

[Deleted]

I think Blizzard probably was envisioning WC2 Paladins when they thought of Prot (big knight on a horse riding into battle with sword and shield). You can't really use a two handed sword very effectively on a horse lol.
That's why we need to leap through the air with wings of vengeance.

Or to not ride on said horse for a couple sec but swiftly dashing forward for a couple split seconds. As I remember the quest to obtain the mount our charger is a "spirit horse" anyway, so summoning it for a short time and releasing it again after a swift dash isn't too hard to imagine. Although I'd be more intrigued if we'd fly or "beam", like Imperius as I suggested, to our enemy target. But I'm sure won't happen anyway, a pony ride is all our class fantasy yields.

Meanwhile, Shadow Priests can turn complete into pure shadow energy...but Paladins who, regarding to lore, are even more connected to the light than priests are can't turn into light and travel with the speed of it for a brief moment. Sure...

[Rennegadelawlz]

"beam", like Imperius as I suggested, to our enemy target.

I'm glad you've been floating MY ideas around I've been saying this since cata and finally I've got 1 person saying the same thing. We need more people to bring this up to blizz, it's perfect for ret it looks different than all gap closers, which makes it feel like less of a copy. I've been tweeting blizz mentioning it, opening tickets asking players on alpha to post it to Blizz. WE NEED MORE PEOPLE BRINGING THIS UP TO BLIZZ ESPECIALLY OUR ALPHA TESTERS!!!

[Deleted]

I'm glad you've been floating MY ideas around I've been saying this since cata and finally I've got 1 person saying the same thing. We need more people to bring this up to blizz, it's perfect for ret it looks different than all gap closers, which makes it feel like less of a copy. I've been tweeting blizz mentioning it, opening tickets asking players on alpha to post it to Blizz. WE NEED MORE PEOPLE BRINGING THIS UP TO BLIZZ ESPECIALLY OUR ALPHA TESTERS!!!

Sorry, just here since around 3 months now. Hadn't the pleasure to read them yet I'm afraid, but yeah...it would at least be plausible and possible to explain why Rets could do it.

The problem however is, most Ret alpha testers are more PvE oriented and have at best a bit of interest in PvP, whereas the few PvPers that got access seem afraid to make any "rash" suggestions and only occasionally try to "haggle down" a cd of the presets given by the devs - or to get back pruned abilities. The PvEers aren't interested in a charge mechanic, it's sufficient enough for PvE to get steed on 30 sec cd - and a typical mindset is that PvE was screwed often enough cuz of PvP so why care, as long as Ret works in random BGs it's alright.
So it's a kinda futile situation as long as nobody speaks up for this matter. I'm looking around the threads of other specs aswell on the alpha board, and there's a HUGE difference how testers there ask for changes - they nearly demand them and suggest for talents getting turned baseline here and there...and compared to Ret it's more often than not a success.

[Deleted]

I think Blizzard probably was envisioning WC2 Paladins when they thought of Prot (big knight on a horse riding into battle with sword and shield). You can't really use a two handed sword very effectively on a horse lol.

That's why we need to leap through the air with wings of vengeance.

Well , actually. It was by far uncommon to see someone on a horse with a shield and a onehanded weapon outside of tournaments in the earlier ages.
Practicly every Rider had either a speer or a special cavelary sword that has the same use as a spear or at times a bastard or long(er) sword.
A Shield gives you no use in combat , in fact it retards you heavily because the hand in which are supposed to hold the horse is now occupied with a shield and the other is your weapons arm. Besides this you are on a stupid horse and heavily armored in the first place. You have both speed and mobility - why the better protection then?
Also with a one handed sword you need to be closer to the target to wack them properly - and you are on a horse, you are bigger then they are that means you have to stand practicly directly beside them to hit them.And again , you are on a horse. You are a very big target that can be wacked from all sides.

So in short: Shield and onehander = stupid while mounted. Long weapon without a shield = good for combat.

[Ashelorh]

[

https://youtu.be/mRxsYLyeVrg?t=1132 AND ANOTHER ONE!

Wake of Ashes would be a lot cooler IMO if instead of having a falling ashbringer it'd be a leap like in one of those videos doing the same damage in a cleave, giving holy power and slowing (charge into a slow might be a bit OP but considering how little mobility we have anyways, eh)

[Teleros]

Well , actually. It was by far uncommon to see someone on a horse with a shield and a onehanded weapon outside of tournaments in the earlier ages.

Huh? As far as I'm aware, the usual thing was to keep a one-handed weapon when mounted in case you came up against enemy cavalry and couldn't go galloping at them. If a bunch of cavalrymen are attacking one another in a close melee, you don't want to be restricted to just a lance or w/e.

That said, against infantry you want something with a nice long reach, because if nothing else you're quite far from them if you're mounted on the back of a big destrier. And the ideal situation vs cavalry would be to use a lance or similar long weapon... but if that failed, well you had a trusty mace or whatnot as backup.

A Shield gives you no use in combat , in fact it retards you heavily because the hand in which are supposed to hold the horse is now occupied with a shield and the other is your weapons arm. Besides this you are on a stupid horse and heavily armored in the first place. You have both speed and mobility - why the better protection then?

Someone should tell the Normans then :P . They used big kite shields to help protect their legs when charging around on horseback. It seems to have fallen out of fashion as limb armour improved though.

That said, I can see them remaining for reasons of custom or ritual... Protection paladins and those like them might use big damn shields anyway, simply because it's the physical symbol of their job.

Also with a one handed sword you need to be closer to the target to wack them properly - and you are on a horse, you are bigger then they are that means you have to stand practicly directly beside them to hit them.And again , you are on a horse. You are a very big target that can be wacked from all sides.

The trick with cavalry is to remain mobile - smash into an enemy formation (preferably on a flank) and don't get bogged down, because it's not hard to have the packed infantry you're facing make holes in you and/or your destrier. If you're going to go one-on-one in close melee combat, you want it to be against other mounted soldiers, because it's much harder to squeeze in more attackers when everyone's on a big damn horse.

[Deleted]

So in short: Shield and onehander = stupid while mounted. Long weapon without a shield = good for combat.

As far as I respected your descriptions of medieval warfare up till now, this time you're a bit wrong my friend.
You're right about every mounted fighter wielding a polearm, most typically a spear for it's long range and piercing abilities, as a weapon, but especially around the second crusade nearly all mounted fighters were equipped with a shield and a blade as sidearm aswell - but it's understandable you deny this because it wasn't that common on the side of the europeans to do so.

During the second crusade, plate wasn't invented yet so most knights and saracen horsemen donned heavy chainmail, which was a bit heavy but not so much as to be immobile, they could move pretty well. The difference was, that the saracen were feared for being the strongest cavalry (despite fighting against european knights) troops because all their equipment was absolutely fitted for fighting on horseback: Their shields had a round shape that didn't impair their maneuverability as the common kiteshield of a knight did. Their scimitars were more suitable for mounted warfare aswell because the danger to injure the horse was lesser as with the more bulky longsword - the increased speed and height of the horse could be used aswell to attack the head region more easily and "mow down" enemies with the sickle-like blade. And last but not least: Warhorses weren't directed by their reins but by putting pressure on the flanks, they were also trained to don't boggle if being near another horse or other fighters and even to be aggressive and kick. It was also a favourable position being on a horse, as the increased height made critical attacks against weak body regions of the enemy easier and attacks against your vital parts harder - often the horse was the first to go down IF a horseman was going down.

So...using a shield and retorting to a onehanded (preferably scimitar or mace) weapon was possible - but as being said, was typically only used as a substitute if the primary weapon got stuck or was lost.

Edit: But to be a bit more clear on topic - a twohanded weapon was typically never used on horseback, as being said. Or at the least weren't being used twohanded - I could accept maces or warhammers as a exception, but a twohanded sword nope. More than a bastard sword would be too much - so for Ret riding and fighting around on his charger IS dumb from a historical reality point of view if this counts anything...

[Teleros]

Edit: But to be a bit more clear on topic - a twohanded weapon was typically never used on horseback, as being said. Or at the least weren't being used twohanded - I could accept maces or warhammers as a exception, but a twohanded sword nope. More than a bastard sword would be too much - so for Ret riding and fighting around on his charger IS dumb from a historical reality point of view if this counts anything...

Just to add to this... think about how you'd use a two-handed weapon like a sword or axe most effectively: ie with both arms. That means the weapon generally has to be in front of you, because if you're swinging at someone to your right, your left arm can't reach very easily.

Now consider that your horse will have its head smack where you want to swing said two-handed weapon.