[MM] Some questions concerning TW

[Deleted]

So I am finally gearing up my hunter for TW, and am stumbling across many different guides which tell of different BiS compositions. There's also stuff about buff food and otherwhise that I am uncertain about.

Gear (so far):
Head: T16 (Thok/Garrosh, SoO) => Meta gem + red socket, 2p gives 15%+ dmg for Chimeara Shot ( I haven't played in MoP, so no legendary meta, instead I use Agile Primal Diamond)
Neck: Necklace of the Deep (wotlk jc) => two red sockets. (Question: There's this tbc amulet from shattered sun rep with the proc. Is that better? Anyone having tested that?)
Shoulder: T13 (Hagara, DS) => two red sockets, 2p gives double focus regen with FS
Back: Dreadfire Drape (Lory Ryolith, FL) => only cape with two sockets (and they're red!) Again, no MoP legendary
Chest: T16 (Sha/Garrosh, SoO)=> 3 red sockets, 2p as mentioned. Not yet obtained
Wrist: Bracers of the Hunter-Killer (lw-DS) => only bracers with two sockets, I believe (and they're red! )
Hands: Sporebeard Gauntlets (Morchok, DS)=> 2 red sockets (Question: The ToT gloves from primordius and t16 gloves have two sockets as well. Are they equally good in tw, or do I have to replace mine?
Belt: Belt of the beloved Champion (DS, Warmaster Blackhorn)=> 2 red sockets Not yet obtained Alternatively I consider Gorge Stalker belt, if I can find someone with the recipe and mats. I have Arrowflight (red/yellow sockets) as a back-up in the bank.
Legs: T13 (DS, Yorsahj the Unsleeping)=> 3 red sockets, 2p as mentioned
Feet: Treads of dormant Dreams (DS/Hagara) => 2 red sockets (Question: I've seen Rancorbite (WoD hfr lfr set) mentioned in terms of OP aoe 4p, but saw it already fixed. Does the 2p provide any noticeable boost vs losing 4 red gems? -40 agi from gems (replacing glove+boots) vs 115 (2p) seems like a gain.)
Ring 1: 715 pre legendary ring => the proc is better than scaled scaled down legendary
Ring 2: Signet of Grasping Mouths (DS/Hagara) => 1 red socket (Question: is the Ashen Verdict one better? It wont provide socket bonus with a red gem, but gives that proc. In cataclysm TW, is it weaker because no upscaling?)
Trinket1: Will of the Blademaster (HFC, Council) => I've seen this in pretty much any guide so gar as unchallenged boss due to ridiculous aoe dmg
Trinket2: HC Soul Prism with socket (Kazzak) => one "red" socket, plus lots of secondary and primary stats (Question: I've seen this mentioned as the top dog somewhere, but also heard good things
-about the heirloom-tentacle one for huge burst (some say ST, some aoe)
-Assurance of Consequence (Sha of Pride, SoO)
-Ghost Iron Dragonling (Engineering, 3 cogwheel sockets ( I assume non engis can use/socket it nowadays?)
Anyone having tested them all and seen a clear winner?
Weapon: Hisek's Reserve Longbow => one red socket, crit and haste are decent stats (No access to garrosh heirlooms or sha touched gem., Zod's Repeating Bow sounds good, but how does it fare in cata TW?

Is this the best I can put together without MoP legendaries or did I miss something?

Bufffood: Made 4 stacks of Pickled Eel (125 crit). Question: I Haven't heard mention of Felmouth Frenzy in TW yet, has anyone tested it?
Flask and Potion: MoP agi ones
Rune

Gems are delicate Crimson Spinels and Cardinal Rubies (duh).

Enchants:
Weapon: I dont know what amounts of crit I'vv have, so I'm torn between the recommended WoD crit and WoD multistrike proc.
Question:There's a MoP scope that provides agility. Wouldn't that be best?
Neck/Ring/Cape: I have used crit, but Question: am unsure as I've seen MS mentioned instead due to high passive crit (65% cap)
Boots: Blurred Speed
Chest: Glorious Stats
Pants: Shadowleather-something-something
Belt: cata belt-buckle
Hands: Agility enchant (dont remember which)
Wrist: Agility enchant (dont remember which, I think both are MoP ones)

Thanks for reading. Feedback would be appreciated.

[Flakstorm]

For a definitive BiS list, you shouldnt use wotlk gear, because would be shitty on cata TW´s. Since in legion we will probly be timewalking even on MoP dungeons, i would suggest only using MoP + gear to build an ultimate BiS list, that could be used at all TW during teh whole expansion.

[Phototropic]

- Neck: In most cases, go gems over proc; I use the same one.
- Gloves/Tier: From what I've read, the +dmg for Chimera 2pc and +dmg for Aimed 2pc are "best," though I just keep 4pc t18 because cba Aimed cast times any more.
- Boots: Paper would suggest the 115 from 2pc lfr would be better but depends if the bonus scales down (no reason it should keeping other bonuses in mind).
- Ring: I wouldn't worry too much about socket bonuses; I personally use the Ashen band as it's damn easy to get.
- Trinket: Not entirely sure how well AoC scales with CDR, I've been trying to get Deathbringers Will (ICC, the 264 ilvl one has 1 more crit than the HC equiv, unsure about proc).
- Scope: It's 200 AP vs 150 agi, I'd probably go with the theme and take the +agi one, though I think I currently have AP on mine atm.
- Enchants: I've personally found that multistrike scales terribly in TW (insofar as to have less than 10% in TBC TW when sat at 36% unscaled), so I just use +crit for neck/cloak/rings.

[Deleted]

Thanks for your responses!
- In terms of tier bonuses, I went with the most attractive sockets (1x red helmet, 2red shoulder, 3 red chest and 3 red leggins).
I also figured double focus from FS to be good for smoother barrage+CS usage on packs. Haven't yet run with a fully geared group yet, so I dont know the drill as far as pulling goes .
- I dont possess the rancorbite items with my hunter, but I guess I'll run lfr with him in the future for the boots/gloves and then compare it.
- I've crafted myself a Ghost Iron Dragonling to compare with the Soul Prism once I start on this event.
- So MoP scopes are better than WoD ones? Gonna switch that out then!

[Supakaiser]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...yuw/edit#gid=0

BIS for all 3 TW (wont be for MoP whenever we get those ofc) ^^^^

[Arcanimus]

I am skeptical that any TBC item will be bis in WotLK TW instances, let alone Cataclysm.

[Supakaiser]

I am skeptical that any TBC item will be bis in WotLK TW instances, let alone Cataclysm.

Check it with Wowhead. It all comes down to raw gem slots for pure agi pushing.

[Deleted]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...yuw/edit#gid=0

BIS for all 3 TW (wont be for MoP whenever we get those ofc) ^^^^

I kinda have the same doubts as Arcanimus.
In term of gem slots, my belt, legs and boots have the same amount of sockets, but are all red, with useful socket bonuses, plus the legs contributing to a set bonus.
They're all cata drops too, and dont suffer from non-upscaling either.

The trinkets dont look particularly bad, but aside from the mirror, all are procs, so chances are they proc when they aren't supposed to. Personally, I value passive trinkets or activated ones over that.

Similar as with trinkets, I went with reliability rather than procs with set boni also. a doubled focus generation via focusing shot and +dmg on CS are solid. The dmg proc may happen at the end of a npc pack. Also better sockets.

The shattered sun pendant is indeed on my mind, though I wonder wether or not it is as good as necklace of the deep, esp when considering lack of upscaling. I remember the sun pendant as very powerful back then, but dont know how much of that is left in wotlk/cata instances. Same goes somewhat for the icc ring vs a ds one with socket, though I do think it might perform better with both a socket and proc.

[Supakaiser]

I kinda have the same doubts as Arcanimus.
In term of gem slots, my belt, legs and boots have the same amount of sockets, but are all red, with useful socket bonuses, plus the legs contributing to a set bonus.
They're all cata drops too, and dont suffer from non-upscaling either.

The trinkets dont look particularly bad, but aside from the mirror, all are procs, so chances are they proc when they aren't supposed to. Personally, I value passive trinkets or activated ones over that.

Similar as with trinkets, I went with reliability rather than procs with set boni also. a doubled focus generation via focusing shot and +dmg on CS are solid. The dmg proc may happen at the end of a npc pack. Also better sockets.

The shattered sun pendant is indeed on my mind, though I wonder wether or not it is as good as necklace of the deep, esp when considering lack of upscaling. I remember the sun pendant as very powerful back then, but dont know how much of that is left in wotlk/cata instances. Same goes somewhat for the icc ring vs a ds one with socket, though I do think it might perform better with both a socket and proc.

The thing about those boots is their agi-stam ratio. I couldnt get them to drop but I did some digging and found a solid alternative: http://www.wowhead.com/item=49897/rock-steady-treads

[Deleted]

The thing about those boots is their agi-stam ratio.

What's this ratio? Like with how much agi they end up after downscaling?

[Trictagon]

Don't make the assumption that lower Ilvl = lower stats, because for whatever reason that's simply not true for the bis items on that spreadsheet. For any timewalking up to and including cata, that list is definitely bis. ACTUALLY look at the stats of each individual piece then draw conclusions if you think you found an improvement. I don't know why you guys are so readily dropping the icc 2pc, it literally just has more agi than any cata pieces and the set bonus is better than any alternative (considering you should already be using DS 2p so that's not competing). Also all of the different ilvls of the icc tier have the exact same stats for whatever reason, you can just buy the lowest one for gold from the icc vendor and its bis.

As for the bc items, look at them, don't expect them to follow the Ilvl scaling of normal stuff. As an example, the legs used as an offpiece literally have 50% more agi (110 Ilvl) than the 410 ilvl ds legs, before the ds legs even get scaled down, and they also have three full-value secondary stats. Same is true with the low Ilvl boots and belt, they literally are just better in every way. Not sure why the spreadsheet doesn't mention it, but deathbringer's will is definitely one of the better trinket options.

The icc ring is still bis in cata timewalking, the proc for 36(?)ap far outweighs the small agi gain.

at the time of this post i'm logged out wearing tw bis if you want to look at an armory instead of a spreadsheet

[armory link]

A few of my gems are matching socket bonuses that probably aren't worth it, but I did this to meet the soft crit cap for playstyle reasons.

You can't put the legendary meta in the icc helmet, but when I tried the legendary meta previously it was only doing something like 1-2% of my overall damage, which is probably about equal to a normal meta's value.

[Deleted]

1)Those Wyrmscale leggins look really good indeed. Gonna look into those.
2) The DS belt/boots seems to have 2 agi more (with the socket bonus) and equally good secondary stats though. Do they get scaled down to be worse in tbc/wotlk? I guess so.
3) What's your take in terms of Rancorbite 2p? It's 115 agi but dunno how much remains after downscaling. It it remained unaffected, it would equal 11.5 red gems, which would be huge and worth going for 3x 2p, which would change the set up again.

I am really confused as to how scaling works here, both outside and inside of TW. do we have to enter a tw dungeon and look at the items there? Are cata items scaled down in bc/wotlk tw dungeons and therefor worse?

Is there a way to view items under tw scaling?

Taking regular wow-head links for comparison:
t10 gloves vs t13 lose 2 agi and 5 haste, for 1 crit.
Comparing with the Sporebeard gloves which I use, they lose 10 agi (the extra socket), 2 crit and gain 3 haste

Comparing the two belts, the DS belt shows 2 extra agi (through socket bonus), 4 crit and loses 4 haste

Comparing the wyrmscale pants with the t13 ones, we gain via wyrmscale 4 agi (6agi socket bonus on t13) and 20 haste at the expense of 2 mastery and 2 mastery, yes, a definite upgrade. Definately gonna farm the shit out of epoch hunter now.

Another thing: The t10 2p I've heard is very unreliable, as the proc chance is halved with us not having a pet around to proc it. I can see it procing often on the kill shot and being useless. 15% chimaera shot, wouldn't that be better?

[Trictagon]

Rancorbite gets scaled down to like 15 agi or something, and ds belt is same agi in cata timewalking as magtheridon belt with socket bonus included; but, it has less secondaries, so low Ilvl belt still bis. Wowhead has a feature that lets you see what stats any item will have in tw for each of the different expansions, it's a checkbox right under the item tooltip (just doesn't work for set bonuses).

- - - Updated - - -

ICC 2p only procs off of your autoshots, nothing else, so lone wolf does not make it worse in any way. Every expansion's timewalking has a different Ilvl cap, so for example anything in wrath timewalking gets scaled to 160, leaving items that were 160 or less unchanged. This makes the lower Ilvl bis pieces even better in earlier time walking expansions, but they're still bis in the later ones even though their Ilvl is so horribly low. I think the Ilvl caps are 95 bc, 160 wrath, and 300 cata.

Chimaera shot is a lot of our damage, but it doesn't do nearly enough to outperform a proc for 10% damage to literally everything we do, barrage and mirror do exceptional damage in tw.

Because the icc set bonus procs off autoshots, it's very likely to proc during a haste buff (rapid fire, hero). And again, look at the raw stats of the icc set. Even in cata timewalking, the 251 icc set pieces have higher agi than pretty much everything else when the other items are 300 Ilvl. There's no real reason as to why certain low level items have exceptionally high stats, blizzard just fucked up.

It seems you didn't know about the wowhead timewalking feature, so I highly recommend looking at that (edited into previous post). This means the stat differences you posted are inaccurate, instead they highly favor all of the items mentioned.

When inside timewalking you can't simply shift-mouseover an item because it does some weird shit, but the wowhead thing is 100% accurate outside of set bonuses.

[Deleted]

-snip-

1) That is good to know considering Rancorbite, would've been a PITA to farm LFR for it
2) This. This! Oh my god, how did I not see that feature all the time?! :O. This sole piece of information was more helpful than all the guides I've read :P. Thank you so much! Now a lot of stuff is making sense.
3) I must've confused it with the effect, which benefits both master and pet. Is it reliable (outside of bossfights or reaaally big pulls which tend to live just a little bit longer)? Not questioning a flat 10% dmg buff, but fight durations tend to be reeeaaally short in tw. The average mob takes one aimed shot crit, then a CS, then kill shot => dead. In this timeframe, we have like two auto shots, so I see a lot of scenarios where we cant fully utilize this proc.

I've already obtained the t10 items (easy enough ) and had luck with solarian boots today also. The pants/waist I'll keep trying to get my hands on, and I've got some rep grind ahead of me for the ring as well.

Shame the MoP legendaries are no longer avaiable One x-pack sat out and they introduce x-pack exlusive legendaries -_-


edit: went and compared the crit/crit/haste dragonling with the soulprism with socket:
46 crit, 16 haste and the on use effect (which I am unsure about for how much it accounts for)
vs
28 agi, 14 vers, 14 mastery, 14 multistrike

The soulprism seems to be better as far as stats are concerned, but I wonder about the dragonling's on use.

[Trictagon]

I haven't really switched back from deathbringer's will. It has passive crit and a proc for 120 agi/ap/crit/haste (random one) with a 30 second proc and short icd, I just don't think anything else can compete with that really. Also not sure if you are already doing this or not, but dragonling gets more stats from cata cogwheels than mop ones in tw. You could even go triple crit (2x cata 1x mop) but the mop gem gives a lot less stats, also I'm at 53% crit with my gear anyway which makes dragonling much less appealing, especially since it has no agi. Iirc the proc effect only does about 0.5% of your overall damage (it's not on-use).

[awbaker]

I am really confused as to how scaling works here, both outside and inside of TW. do we have to enter a tw dungeon and look at the items there? Are cata items scaled down in bc/wotlk tw dungeons and therefor worse?

Is there a way to view items under tw scaling?

Wowhead has a feature you can use when you look at an item

[Aneri]

i got shortly out off a long pause so pls let this question not bother you too much :

why would you farm bis gear for TW? with heroic raid gear and the legendary back im doing 99% the time the most dmg in my random groups. Are you farming this "only" to maxim you dmg or is there another reason?

[Phototropic]

For me it's a mixture between competing with my fellow guildies when we do TW together, maximising my DPS/damage for epeen, and to occupy time.

[Deleted]

i got shortly out off a long pause so pls let this question not bother you too much :

why would you farm bis gear for TW? with heroic raid gear and the legendary back im doing 99% the time the most dmg in my random groups. Are you farming this "only" to maxim you dmg or is there another reason?

You feel damn powerful with tw gear, like when leveling a character with full heirlooms and powerful enchants.
You can mix and match old stuff and reminisc about old times when that gear was relevant.
You're faster in rushing these instances, allowing you to save time when farming for the mount drop.

Outside of that: Why raid? Why pvp? Why play wow at all? In the end, it is all just numbers.
Should I go through weeks and months of tedious wiping to get little upgrades in mythic, and have it turned pointless upon next x-pack? TW is, well, timeless , you feel much more powerful than that in tw dungeons, doing 60-70% of dmg done against non-gearers.

To each his own.

[Supakaiser]

You feel damn powerful with tw gear, like when leveling a character with full heirlooms and powerful enchants.
You can mix and match old stuff and reminisc about old times when that gear was relevant.
You're faster in rushing these instances, allowing you to save time when farming for the mount drop.

Outside of that: Why raid? Why pvp? Why play wow at all? In the end, it is all just numbers.
Should I go through weeks and months of tedious wiping to get little upgrades in mythic, and have it turned pointless upon next x-pack? TW is, well, timeless , you feel much more powerful than that in tw dungeons, doing 60-70% of dmg done against non-gearers.

To each his own.

I had some people razzing me about this in trade chat the other day? "Lol why do you need a tw set?? its just tw bro" etc...