Met with an architect today.... what do you think?

[Endus]

In this circumstance, what would justify a "clear acceptance of terms"?

Something like the clearly-posted services/price list on the firm's website that I mentioned earlier, if it existed (which it usually doesn't, for firms like architects, for a host of reasons).

[Celista]

In this circumstance, what would justify a "clear acceptance of terms"?

Saying "sure, let's meet up" after the architect clearly stated "I charge $200 for a consult, is that ok?" before setting up a meeting. Clear acceptance is not as big of a deal as people think it is in the US...like for example, every time you swipe your debit card or click "order now" on Amazon that is acceptance of a contract.

[Jotaux]

A couple of attorneys I know opened up a restaurant in an inexpensive part of the Portland area and blew through a $1M budget within 12 months of the restaurant opening, and the restaurant was not unsuccessful.

What the hell kind of restaurant were they opening?

[Manhands]

First of all, nothing about this would feel good. Sucky situation for you, and he put you in that place. He even maybe hoped that he could guilt you into giving money. Awful.

For what it's worth, from my standpoint, not paying him was totally above board. If he doesn't mention the fee, he doesn't get a fee. So try to shake your head and realize he was laying some kind of fee-trap and not take the guilt bait.

[BuckSparkles]

What the hell kind of restaurant were they opening?

Architecture and work related is expensive.

I won't even tell you the numbers a family friend is working with. The father of my closest friend is a president of an architecture firm and working on renovations for something big. Big $$$.

[Knolan]

In my country consultants that will provide you with a service in the future (e. g.: constructors and carpenters) do not charge a fee for a first visit, in which you agree to a price.

If he had not said the cost in advance, fuck him, he is trying to get money from you from guilt.

[Jotaux]

Architecture and work related is expensive.

I won't even tell you the numbers a family friend is working with. The father of my closest friend is a president of an architecture firm and working on renovations for something big. Big $$$.

Thats not enough to blow through 1 million unless they were having a lot of high quality food waste.

[GarlicGuy]

Is $100k your total budget or just what you were planning on renovations? Even if you were planning on working the shop yourself, licensure fees and related business costs add up very quickly.

A couple of attorneys I know opened up a restaurant in an inexpensive part of the Portland area and blew through a $1M budget within 12 months of the restaurant opening, and the restaurant was not unsuccessful.

I will just say this.... I visited a BRAND NEW cafe last Thursday, that is owned by a husband and wife, and they paid WELL UNDER 100K for everything, and I mean everything.... about 90 miles from where I live. Place has been open for 10 days, now. EDIT... that includes $7500 for a custom cappucino / latte maker.

[Kathandira]

I don't expect any lawsuit or anything. He said that it would be the last time he ever did this, and that nobody didn't pay him for his time before.

What I thought I "might" do is offer him my services as a DJ at $200 off my normal price.... that he could use, or he could pass it along to someone who can use it.

My reason for the suggestion, is to get advice from a lawyer just incase the architect decides to sue you for failure to pay for services.

[nextormento]

$100k is a paltry budget. If anything he should have known that the OP's project is a pipe dream and declined to meet, or offered a half-assed email meeting.

Costs vary greatly from place to place.
€100k (~$115K) sounds in the right ballpark for a small coffee shop (that'd be necessary piping -plumbing, electricity, etc-, interior design, and basic equipment). Dunno what the licenses and the gaming collection would add to that, but OP hasn't specified the scale of the project either.


To OP: I don't think you're obliged to pay without previous agreement. You're better off if they were not clear about fees.

Personally I very rarely charge for consultations. Our professional fees are rather standard across town, so you're less likely to strike a deal if you incur in extra fees. But I've occasionally mentioned a fee in future meetings if I feel the client is abusing my time.

[Kathandira]

What the hell kind of restaurant were they opening?

Think about what is inside of a Restaurant. Decor, Painting, Flooring, Walling, Cooking ranges, dish washing, walk in freezer, bathroom, HVAC. Any property maintenance or refurbishing, Landscaping.

And that is all before actually purchasing the food, liqueur, utensils, plates, cooking ware, and other misc products.

Restaurants are just about the most expensive small business you can start up.

[IIamaKing]

Wondering why you went with an architect and not a construction company.


OT, you asked about a fee, he declined to answer, IMO he was not wanting to tell you his ridiculous 5k fee and hoped you would just pay. He gambled wrong and worked for free, thats on him.

[GarlicGuy]

Wondering why you went with an architect and not a construction company.

Simple.... I believe that an architect should have my interests in mind more than a construction company since they don't have to worry about trying to cut corners on the construction costs.. Also, I have read 3 books about opening a business, and 2 of them said "Before signing a lease, get in touch with an architect".....

I am certainly glad I followed that advice.

[Kathandira]

It's funny, I went to school for CAD Classes because I wanted to be an architect when I was a kid. However, after a few jobs, I wasn't really enjoying it.

My cousin on the other hand, followed through on it and actually is an architect.

What's funny, is that architects have a reputation for being assholes, which my cousin has been his whole life. A "i'm better than you" kind of dick.

[Celista]

Thats not enough to blow through 1 million unless they were having a lot of high quality food waste.

I am not privy to their breakdown of expenses lol but I can tell you from the little I know about the place is that they made some mistakes/did some things to preserve the brand image up front that did not benefit them in the short term.

-small restaurant, yet had a full time executive chef/kitchen manager
-only one partner had restaurant management experience
-high end food costs, with lots of food imported from Italy
-overhead costs and labor hours associated with keeping the restaurant open for lunches, which did not benefit the restaurant financially

Just what I know off the top of my head.

- - - Updated - - -

I will just say this.... I visited a BRAND NEW cafe last Thursday, that is owned by a husband and wife, and they paid WELL UNDER 100K for everything, and I mean everything.... about 90 miles from where I live. Place has been open for 10 days, now. EDIT... that includes $7500 for a custom cappucino / latte maker.

Well location makes a difference, so if you live in a lower-cost area that makes a difference. You need to budget for overhead costs for the first 12 months of opening, though, or you'll be running on fumes within the first month. This is one of the reasons why restaurant turnover is so high...

Really don't look at what other restaurant owners are doing unless you know they've been successful and for a long time, restaurants have one of the highest business failure rates.

[Jotaux]

Think about what is inside of a Restaurant. Decor, Painting, Flooring, Walling, Cooking ranges, dish washing, walk in freezer, bathroom, HVAC. Any property maintenance or refurbishing, Landscaping.

And that is all before actually purchasing the food, liqueur, utensils, plates, cooking ware, and other misc products.

Restaurants are just about the most expensive small business you can start up.

My family is in the restaurant business, our most costly restaurant could just barely hit 1 mill in operating costs and the capital investment in a 1 year period.

[IIamaKing]

Simple.... I believe that an architect should have my interests in mind more than a construction company since they don't have to worry about trying to cut corners on the construction costs.. Also, I have read 3 books about opening a business, and 2 of them said "Before signing a lease, get in touch with an architect".....

I am certainly glad I followed that advice.

Fair enough. Would never think to go that route. I mean if you were planing on doing a massive remodel or and addition, sure, but for renovations, go with your areas most trusted construction company. I mean thats who is going to end up doing the work.



Best of luck to you, I like board games. GG on saving 1/2 the price of a small car.

[RuneDK]

I was looking for a place to open a board game cafe. I spent months trying to find an affordable space. I finally found one, but the building would need way more money to renovate than I can afford. The owner's representative told me that it would be $12K - $15K to renovate. I knew that was a bunch of BS. I "knew" it would be at least $40K to renovate, and maybe more. I had a budget of $50K to renovate at he high end.

So, I called an architect to help me out. He told me that it would be about $5000 to draw up renovation plans, and that he would provide a 20 - 30 minute consultation at the building. I asked him no less than twice, if there would be a fee for the consultation. He never gave me an answer. He would just move on to whatever else he wanted to talk about.... mostly his reputation as an architect.

Today, he showed up at the building and said it would be close to $100K for renovations. At that point I knew I could not open the cafe' as I don't want to take a loan or spend more money than my budget. I had a $100K budget for everything - no loans, just my money.

Then as I told him - the architect - that I was not willing to spend that much, I was not going to open the cafe. He THEN said we needed to talk about his consultation fee. I told him that I asked him at least twice for what that fee would be, and he didn't give me a number. He even admitted that was true, however, he said "What did you think, that I was working for nothing?"

I said "I don't know, as I never did this before, but I look at it like this: many people give free consultations, in hopes of getting business." In this case, his fees would be $5000 or more. EDIT: I own a DJ business and offer 30 minutes of consultation at no charge.

So, I thanked him for his time, and started to leave..... He says "you just stole $200 of my time."

If he admitted that he didn't answer your question about a consultation fee then fuck em. He cost himself $200 not you.

[apepi]

My company spends 100+ man hours to put together a bid, which probably costs on the order of $100k to do. We never get compensated for that if the client doesn't select our company, or chooses not to carry out the program.

Free consultations are totally a thing. If this guy didn't tell you he'd charge a consultation fee, he can fuck right off.

You live in Houston? My sister is working for an architect company there.

[Aqua]

$100k is a paltry budget. If anything he should have known that the OP's project is a pipe dream and declined to meet, or offered a half-assed email meeting.

Okay so the ones near you failed, you're being very unduly harsh, there might be a niche where he lives for this to succeed, there's certainly one in my town that's been going strong 5 years and is always crammed full on the weekends and holidays. Booking is always needed. Budgets are simply that, you're nearly always going to go over them. If anything, starting with a smaller budget is good since it pushes what you can do with it to the limitations. Keep it small then grow the budget when things truly are in dire need. Hopefully he's put that into consideration.

But more on the topic of conversation:

And the Architect is in the wrong. He offered no quote on the consultation fee when asked, it's not like the guy didn't ask him for one, he wasn't looking to waste anyones time.