Men should have the right to ‘abort’ responsibility, Swedish political group says

[negawonka]

Medical procedures without the consent of the one affected by it is bodily injury, aggravated assault or if there's a risk of death - attempted murder.

No I wasn't saying a forced medical procedure, I was saying a procedure that the woman could either choose to have or choose not to and forfeit any future assistance. I don't believe in forcing women to have an abortion no more than I believe in not allowing them to have one. Their body, their choice. However that fetus is half mine so I should have an equitable say in the future of it. Since I can't do so through biological means I will settle for doing so with financial means. Nothing unreasonable there.

[Raelbo]

Not me, but generally that is what your argumentation is, feels, they feels bads.

What I take from this is:

1) I shouldn't try to guilt trip you because it won't work on you, and
2) you are incapable of understanding an argument that involves emotion.

That is not an argument, it is an emotional appeal.

Just because I use words like emotion and empathy doesn't mean I am making an emotional appeal. An emotional appeal expects one to override logic in favour of an emotional response. It appeals to the emotion of the person you are arguing against. I have done no such thing. I have made an argument which points out that abortion and adoption have the potential to cause significant emotional harm to the mothers involved, and thus should not be treated as simple logical constructs that can be assessed purely on issues like financial implications.

But I do find it interesting that you seem to think I am appealing to your emotions.

The fact that you think im some sort of psychopath makes it very clear that you do not want to think what is logical, but rather what feels good.

At this point I am pretty sure that you are either completely lacking in empathy or pretending to be. That doesn't mean I think you're "some sort of psychopath". It could mean you're a sociopath or maybe just somewhere on the autism spectrum (like Sheldon Cooper) or just very young. That's not an insult btw. Lack of empathy may be a handicap in some ways, but it can also be a huge advantage. It is interesting trying to discuss this with you (Deleth too), although I do find it amusing that you accuse me of lacking logic and intelligence, when the real issue for you is that I incorporate elements of emotional intelligence into my argument.

And no, my viewpoint has nothing to do with what feels good. It is rooted in what is just and fair. What makes it hard for you to understand is that I place value on the emotional wellbeing of a mother who is faced with the choice of aborting, giving up a child for adoption or facing the burden (financial, emotional, time) of raising a child, whereas you simply cannot see why this should be an issue. The fact is that they are an issue. Any human being with any modicum of empathy would innately know why, and psychologists will easily be able to explain why these things are important to a person's mental and physical health.

That is not in any way remotely similar to an appeal to emotion (except for the fact that it uses the word emotion) because I don't depend on your emotional understanding for these things to be true.

[Deleted]

No I wasn't saying a forced medical procedure, I was saying a procedure that the woman could either choose to have or choose not to and forfeit any future assistance. I don't believe in forcing women to have an abortion no more than I believe in not allowing them to have one. Their body, their choice. However that fetus is half mine so I should have an equitable say in the future of it. Since I can't do so through biological means I will settle for doing so with financial means. Nothing unreasonable there.

No, you don't own it.

[Deleted]

You're aware what happens in such cases, right? They get relocated to a foster family, the state doesn't raise them.

Except for the ones that aren't with foster parents and are in an orphanage, you do know they still exist, i presume. But that would not be as big of a problem if they where put up for adoption at an early age.

[negawonka]

No, you don't own it.

Yet a woman does own it to enough of a degree to terminate it?

[Deleted]

Yet a woman does own it to enough of a degree to terminate it?

A woman doesn't own a fetus either. Women can do so because you're not obligated to keep something alive with your own body.

[Jotaux]

A woman doesn't own a fetus either. Women can do so because you're not obligated to keep something alive with your own body.

So now you are equating abortion to taking a life?

[Deleted]

So now you are equating abortion to taking a life?

I don't think I have ever denied that you kill something. Ending life isn't always immoral, you know.

[Xanjori]

So now you are equating abortion to taking a life?

Alive=/= a life.

[willtron]

There is no double standard. It would only be a double standard if both men and women were capable of giving birth.

Still takes the father to create the child, furthermore, if the father doesn't want the child, he'll be forced into a financial commitment.

[Pann]

Who said anything about saving a relationship? She could prefer to keep the current lifestyle. Besides, I said "especially". Again, some nefarious women can be idiots and go around getting their hands on the man's money from less efficient angle.

Uhm, you when you wrote "Especially if the idiot nefarious women would want the man to stay, when they could use "think of ze children" as an argument to achieve that." If she prefers her current lifestyle then why would she want to get pregnant? I would assume that if a woman is nefarious enough to devise a scheme to get her hands on a man's fortune then she would choose one that would give her more than just child support and she would not burden herself with a child that will take up that child support as well as her own time and money.

[Deleted]

Still takes the father to create the child, furthermore, if the father doesn't want the child, he'll be forced into a financial commitment.

So what? There's still no double standard.

[AeneasBK]

God damn whoever resurrected this abortion of a thread.

[Deleted]

God damn whoever resurrected this abortion of a thread.

Deleth did.

[Halyon]

Still takes the father to create the child, furthermore, if the father doesn't want the child, he'll be forced into a financial commitment.

A woman being forced to go through pregnancy or abortion will suffer damage she may not recover from. Both physically and mentally.

[negawonka]

A woman doesn't own a fetus either. Women can do so because you're not obligated to keep something alive with your own body.

Yet you are obligated to support it financially for a lifetime after it is born. So a woman isn't obligated to keep something alive inside her for 9 months but a man can be obligated to financially support something for 18 years.

You want to have your cake and to eat it to. Right now that is what you have so you are fine with it, but some of us want cake too. Cake is nice after all.

- - - Updated - - -

A woman being forced to go through pregnancy or abortion will suffer damage she may not recover from. Both physically and mentally.

A father forced to support a child for 18 years will suffer damage that he may or may not recover from. How many men are serving time in prison because they didn't pay child support versus how many women are in mental institutions for the emotional impact of an abortion.

[Deleted]

Yet you are obligated to support it financially for a lifetime after it is born. So a woman isn't obligated to keep something alive inside her for 9 months but a man can be obligated to financially support something for 18 years.

You want to have your cake and to eat it to. Right now that is what you have so you are fine with it, but some of us want cake too. Cake is nice after all.

Women have to pay, too, you know. The one with custody pays way more than the one who doesn't have custody.

[Lillyth]

I'd be ok with this actually.

If the women wants to keep the little monster, but not the dad, he can just leave and not be stuck with child support for the next 18 years.

Purdy much this.

Oh what, you dont want to pay for that kid YOU want to keep? Time to own up, mothers.

[Halyon]

A father forced to support a child for 18 years will suffer damage that he may or may not recover from. How many men are serving time in prison because they didn't pay child support versus how many women are in mental institutions for the emotional impact of an abortion.

Not everywere in the world. Around here the state takes over if the father is incapable of paying. And monetary loss is the lesser evil out of lifelong trauma.

And women pay child support as well you know, it goes both ways.

[Deleted]

What I take from this is:

1) I shouldn't try to guilt trip you because it won't work on you, and
2) you are incapable of understanding an argument that involves emotion.



Just because I use words like emotion and empathy doesn't mean I am making an emotional appeal. An emotional appeal expects one to override logic in favour of an emotional response. It appeals to the emotion of the person you are arguing against. I have done no such thing. I have made an argument which points out that abortion and adoption have the potential to cause significant emotional harm to the mothers involved, and thus should not be treated as simple logical constructs that can be assessed purely on issues like financial implications.

But I do find it interesting that you seem to think I am appealing to your emotions.



At this point I am pretty sure that you are either completely lacking in empathy or pretending to be. That doesn't mean I think you're "some sort of psychopath". It could mean you're a sociopath or maybe just somewhere on the autism spectrum (like Sheldon Cooper) or just very young. That's not an insult btw. Lack of empathy may be a handicap in some ways, but it can also be a huge advantage. It is interesting trying to discuss this with you (Deleth too), although I do find it amusing that you accuse me of lacking logic and intelligence, when the real issue for you is that I incorporate elements of emotional intelligence into my argument.

And no, my viewpoint has nothing to do with what feels good. It is rooted in what is just and fair. What makes it hard for you to understand is that I place value on the emotional wellbeing of a mother who is faced with the choice of aborting, giving up a child for adoption or facing the burden (financial, emotional, time) of raising a child, whereas you simply cannot see why this should be an issue. The fact is that they are an issue. Any human being with any modicum of empathy would innately know why, and psychologists will easily be able to explain why these things are important to a person's mental and physical health.

That is not in any way remotely similar to an appeal to emotion (except for the fact that it uses the word emotion) because I don't depend on your emotional understanding for these things to be true.

An argument that is based on an emotion is an emotional appeal, i don't know how to bring it to you, but that isn't an argument.
You are trying to read more into it that what was stated, you try to make, you are not appealing to my emotions, but you are trying too. That is the whole emotional appeal argumentation. You just fail at doing it, that is what im pointing out, that doesn't make me a monster. That makes your emotional appeals bad.

You are trying to tell me im a sociopath or have some mental defect, im glad to tell you that isn't the case, it is just you being bad in separating emotion from reason in a discussion, nothing more. The fact that you see mental illness everywhere says more about you then it does about me. Incorporating "emotional logic" into this should mean that you do so for both parties, and not just "but the moms".

Your viewpoint is exactly that "feels", nothing more, because someone might feel something we should have others pay, regardless of what they feel. That is why this is just one big farce. The fact that this is only about the feels of one party makes it laughable at best.

This in short is nothing but emotional appeal, the fact that you can't see this makes me doubt you. I won't accuse you of being mentally deficient like you did me, i will just call you stupid and be done with it.

The only thing you have stated yet again are pure emotional appeals that fail badly,