[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Aeluron Lightsong]

WoWhead hasn't updated the tooltips yet, CS still is only 100% damage aswell despite being buffed to 120%. But it was listed under the detailed changes, so BoF now 25sec cd which actually sucks. It's the only way for Ret slightly keeping up with others in PvP and our only tool to clear us from slows or roots.

Without Pursuit of Justice, I would concur. Our mobility ignoring Divine Steed(No I don't want that talent) isn't going to be great. Hell most classes move slow in proportion to the world around them. Exploration will be hard to do now a days.

Still betting this has to do with dungeon/raid mechanics.

[Deleted]

Still betting this has to do with dungeon/raid mechanics.

Guess they want to incentivize bringing movement speed boosting specs like Ferals a bit more.

[Deleted]

I expect the new ability to get toned down a bit, but it should still hit really, really hard. If ret's weakness is mobility and we're supposed to have a hard time getting on people and staying on them, then when we do manage to get off our big attacks, it should be ridiculously punishing. After all, if the ret pally caught you, it's more your fault than anything and you deserve what's coming for playing badly and not paying attention.

That's just my opinion on that. I would still prefer a good distance closer to that kind of insane burst damage.

Will not be allowed by the community. It doesn't matter to them... because you will come on BG's and wreck them while they are busy with someone else = Massive QQ (Ret one shot me claim, etc.)= Nerf to the ground. The fact you are super easy to kite is completely irrelevant to them.

[An-Tuirseach]

Will not be allowed by the community. It doesn't matter to them... because you will come on BG's and wreck them while they are busy with someone else = Massive QQ (Ret one shot me claim, etc.)= Nerf to the ground. The fact you are super easy to kite is completely irrelevant to them.

That's the thing. When it comes to every other spec that has a broken thing and the community bitches about it, Blizzard will do little tweaks or just tell them, "well, it's intended to be that way" or some stupid shit like that. Ret has a leg up in literally any field, it's nerf city. I just hope that for fucking once Blizzard sticks to their guns in the face of the QQ of the casuals. If we're vocal enough about it in the alpha, then hopefully the nerfs will be minor and not just ruin us for yet another PvP season.

I'm just trying to stay optimistic because my pessimism regarding the changes to ret has made it to where my guildmates and friends don't want to talk to me about anything involving Legion anymore. Just let me live in this lie a while longer.

[Kithelle]

I'm just not getting the point of blade of wrath...they keep nerfing it...right now it says it does less than 1/3rd the damage of blade of justice while still having 2/3rds the cooldown and generating the same HoPo...at the very least shouldn't it generate 3 power for how little damage it does?

Maybe give it a longer range too...could be used in pvp with seal of light...since nerfed now it isn't great for much else.

[Deleted]

I'm just not getting the point of blade of wrath...they keep nerfing it...right now it says it does less than 1/3rd the damage of blade of justice while still having 2/3rds the cooldown and generating the same HoPo...at the very least shouldn't it generate 3 power for how little damage it does?

Maybe give it a longer range too...could be used in pvp with seal of light...since nerfed now it isn't great for much else.

Blade of Justice deals 240% Physical damage, affected by armor, while Blade of Wrath is 60% Holy, not affected by armor.

[Deleted]

I'm just not getting the point of blade of wrath...they keep nerfing it...right now it says it does less than 1/3rd the damage of blade of justice while still having 2/3rds the cooldown and generating the same HoPo...at the very least shouldn't it generate 3 power for how little damage it does?

Maybe give it a longer range too...could be used in pvp with seal of light...since nerfed now it isn't great for much else.

Remember that BoW does holy damage, not physical. Also, if you use it on cooldown, you get more HP generated which leads to more Templar's Verdicts and Divine Storms. This is where the benefit comes from (and yes, that does make up from the raw damage reduction).

[Deleted]

Blade of Justice deals 240% Physical damage, affected by armor, while Blade of Wrath is 60% Holy, not affected by armor.

Which is roughly a ~30% dmg increase against Plate, so it comes to a~90% damage attack. It's underwhelming as hell.

Remember that BoW does holy damage, not physical. Also, if you use it on cooldown, you get more HP generated which leads to more Templar's Verdicts and Divine Storms. This is where the benefit comes from (and yes, that does make up from the raw damage reduction).

This would be alright if it still would have a CD of 6sec, but with 8sec either the damage or the range IS underwhelming. Granted, this can be ignored until #s tuning in Beta, but with a 8sec CD I'd rather suggest for BoW to deal around 75% - 80% weapon damage as holy. It's not only BoJ dealing more damage basically, it's the improved effect from Virtue's blade aswell you need to keep in mind.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Remember that BoW does holy damage, not physical. Also, if you use it on cooldown, you get more HP generated which leads to more Templar's Verdicts and Divine Storms. This is where the benefit comes from (and yes, that does make up from the raw damage reduction).

While true, it would mean the talent is much more desired from a HP generating perspective and or wanting an actual good rotation.

[Ulthane]

Which is roughly a ~30% dmg increase against Plate, so it comes to a~90% damage attack. It's underwhelming as hell.

He is right. Plus Virtue's Blade and dat crit...

[Deleted]

Any brave soul that can stream / record the changes of the new build? I have no access to Alpha but i am SUPER curious about it.

I do videos of the changes each build. Gameplay for the current one will hopefully be out this weekend, but raw changes and discussion here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aQyKctRblY

Just look at the playlist for the most up to date ones.

[Deleted]

Which is roughly a ~30% dmg increase against Plate, so it comes to a~90% damage attack. It's underwhelming as hell.

Bosses have 32% reduction against Physical damage, so Blade of Justice hits them for ~163% weapon damage every 12 seconds - that's 13.6% WeaponDamage/sec and 0.16˙ HolyPower/sec. I don't know the armor averages for Plate/Mail/Leather/Cloth targets.

Blade of Wrath is always 60% weapon damage, every 8 seconds - that's a lower dps of 7.5% WeaponDamage/sec, but generates Holy Power 33% faster (0.25 HoPo/sec).

[Deleted]

Bosses have 32% reduction against Physical damage, so Blade of Justice hits them for ~163% weapon damage every 12 seconds - that's 13.6% WeaponDamage/sec and 0.16˙ HolyPower/sec. I don't know the armor averages for Plate/Mail/Leather/Cloth targets.
Blade of Wrath is always 60% weapon damage, every 8 seconds - that's a lower dps of 7.5% WeaponDamage/sec, but generates Holy Power 33% faster (0.25 HoPo/sec).

And now do the math again with Virtue's Blade picked, so on a crit it deals a whooping 489.6% weapon damage (already minus the armor) - this is around 40% less of what a non-holy TV deals. Keep in mind that, as Reg said, players will have around ~20% crit without going for the stat.
So in other words: the damage of Virtue's Blade is worth around 2 HoPo for a TV, making BoJ grant you not only 2 but 4 HoPo from a damage point of view.

Is Blade of Wrath still not underwhelming?

[Deleted]

Both those tier bonuses are things that i would love to see basiline as it would not only speed up the spec a bit but make it more reactive and fun to play. ?

I completly agree here that either or both of them should be made into our baseline specc , both of them give us a higher HP generation and the old DP procc will be made into HP generation instead of a finisher. Our finishers as they are right now aswell how many we have is fine and pretty good even , but our HP generation lacks immensly behind. This would change it to the better and give some proccs that aren't necessary for bad or casual players. But min/max'ers will profit highly from it aswell as the faster paste playstyle.

[Deleted]

I completly agree here that either or both of them should be made into our baseline specc , both of them give us a higher HP generation and the old DP procc will be made into HP generation instead of a finisher. Our finishers as they are right now aswell how many we have is fine and pretty good even , but our HP generation lacks immensly behind. This would change it to the better and give some proccs that aren't necessary for bad or casual players. But min/max'ers will profit highly from it aswell as the faster paste playstyle.

This OR the devs stop wasting the potential of Holy Power - as did I suggest a bit in my overhaul. Why only use HoPo in terms of generate and spend? There are many more options with Holy Power, for example:
- abilities with a cd that deal more damage if you have more HoPo (but don't spend it)
- abilities dealing less damage the more HoPo you have, so they're best used after spending it
- abilities that have a chance to activate if you generate or spend Holy Power
- abilities that have additional effects if you have a certain amount of HoPo (but don't spend any of it).

This would put our focus away from a rotation that feels like being a plate-rogue (the main reason why most people seem to hate HoPo), would center us more around HoPo as our main difference between other melees and pala specs, and it would spice up our rotation and gameplay aswell. You'd interact with it a whole lot differently than just generate and dump it - and Ret would be unique from other melees in it's playstyle.

[Deleted]

And now do the math again with Virtue's Blade picked, so on a crit it deals a whooping 489.6% weapon damage (already minus the armor) - this is roughly what a TV deals. Keep in mind that, as Reg said, players will have around ~20% crit without going for the stat.

Is Blade of Wrath still not underwhelming?

So the average hit damage of Blade of Justice is ~228,48% weapon damage, or 19.04% weapondamage/sec.
In the same scenario, Blade of Wrath does 72% weapon damage on average, for 9% wd/sec. And still generates more HoPo, resulting in more TVs.

Over a 2 minute long encounter:

1. Blade of Justice will deal ~2284.8% damage and generate 20 HoPo from 10 hits. That's ~6.66˙TVs, resulting in an additional ~2880% weapon damage. For a total of 5164.8% weapon damage.
2. Blade of Wrath will deal 1080% damage and generate 30 Hopo from 15 hits. That's 10 TVs, resulting in an additional ~4320% weapon damage. For a total of 5400% weapon damage.

Nope, not underwhelming. Balanced, if anything.

[Deleted]

Remember that BoW does holy damage, not physical. Also, if you use it on cooldown, you get more HP generated which leads to more Templar's Verdicts and Divine Storms. This is where the benefit comes from (and yes, that does make up from the raw damage reduction).

yup excellion, like Tethe says BoW is most likely the best choice on that tier for single target. I made a mock calculation a few pages ago to make that obvious. With the latest changes its even more than ever (TV damage got buffed and scales with the judgement debuff. Both BoW and TV are holy damage. BoV is physical damage).

[Deleted]

So the average hit damage of Blade of Justice is ~228,48% weapon damage, or 19.04% weapondamage/sec.
In the same scenario, Blade of Wrath does 72% weapon damage on average, for 9% wd/sec. And still generates more HoPo, resulting in more TVs.

And where is the additional damage of Virtue's Blades effect in your math? You just focus on raw damage and HoPo generation but ignore the additional damage of crits BoJ deals. Look again on the post you quoted from me, I wrote more clearly what I meant and why Blade of Wrath is underwhelming

[Deleted]

And now do the math again with Virtue's Blade picked, so on a crit it deals a whooping 489.6% weapon damage (already minus the armor) - this is around 40% less of what a non-holy TV deals. Keep in mind that, as Reg said, players will have around ~20% crit without going for the stat.
So in other words: the damage of Virtue's Blade is worth around 2 HoPo for a TV, making BoJ grant you not only 2 but 4 HoPo from a damage point of view.

Is Blade of Wrath still not underwhelming?

It does 489% weapon damage once every 5 times (assuming 20% but i have my doubts that mastery isnt our main stat instead) and it generates one less HP every time and is reduced by armor. 3 of them are used during a time lapse of 36 seconds. You get the benefit once every 60 seconds in average.

TV and BoW are holy damage (bypass armor) and you will get a new TV every 24 seconds. Almost 3 per minute.

The DPS on BoW + TV just completely outpaces the damage of BoV. Unless you want to claim that the default damage of BoV wich after armor is about 34k + the crit effect once every 5 vs the 20k of BoW and (about) 2.4 (something like that) TVs is bigger. Dont forget the TV's scale with mastery/judgement and Echo of the highlord. There is no contest here.

So, yes... unless theres lots of problems with ability clashes, BoW is clearly the best DPS choice over time.

[Deleted]

And where is the additional damage of Virtue's Blades effect in your math? You just focus on raw damage and HoPo generation but ignore the additional damage of crits BoJ deals. Look again on the post you quoted from me, I wrote more clearly what I meant and why Blade of Wrath is underwhelming

I did calculate critical hits, yes, including the x3 multiplier for Justice.

I did not include any other talents or buffs, but those would only make Wrath better, since you can add in more Execution Sentences, get more hits for Blessing of Might etc, get higher benefits from Final Verdict.