[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Deleted]

Remember Crusader Flurry also reduces the CD of Crusader Strike by .5 seconds (4 second recharge as opposed to 4.5). Also, charges are good because they reduce the penalty for not "immediately" pressing Crusader Strike, and they reward you when you're out of range (because charges replenish).

Yeah... still sounds a bit niche. It's not common to not be able to attack something for 12 seconds with CS, much less with the frequency with wich we would need to make full use of it.
Again though, unfortunely i can't test it. But aside from some creative encounters, i don't foresee much of a use for it.

- - - Updated - - -

For you guys who have played both Arms and Ret in the alpha, who is looking "better" and by better I mean in terms of gameplay, RNG, rotation, burst you know ^^

Only requires a look at the talent trees to see Arms is by far better in terms of options. Ret is "broken" atm in alpha. But if you are looking for a viable PvP class, you can't go wrong with warrior. Ret was never a very good PvP spec.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Yeah... still sounds a bit niche. It's not common to not be able to attack something for 12 seconds, much less with the frequency wich we would need to make full use of it.
Again though, unfortunely i can't test it.

Yup, and personally right now I won't take it. I already shown how I dislike charges and even told @ Warcraftdevs

Don't need to say it much more. Gaps in our rotation suck ass.

[Ulthane]

Or have it instead of flat increase of damage for DT have it have Divine storm add a "burn" effect. Keeps it inline to fantasy and damage in check.

[Ryuji]

Wonder if Blizz would somehow bring back Divine Purpose or a form of it like make stuff cost 1-2 less HP or something.

For those that hate RNG, I understand that but oh dear sweet Uther it's hilarious to get 8+ divine storm chains off in AoE situations.

[Ulthane]

Wonder if Blizz would somehow bring back Divine Purpose or a form of it like make stuff cost 1-2 less HP or something.

For those that hate RNG, I understand that but oh dear sweet Uther it's hilarious to get 8+ divine storm chains off in AoE situations.

Echo of the Highlord would be a good place for this in a fashion: Have your consumers proc a free one but the free one cannot proc a free one.

[Reghame]

Wonder if Blizz would somehow bring back Divine Purpose or a form of it like make stuff cost 1-2 less HP or something.

For those that hate RNG, I understand that but oh dear sweet Uther it's hilarious to get 8+ divine storm chains off in AoE situations.

you mean.... old conviction..... the one everyone hated because RNG into the spec
Or the even older one where you gained holypower..... but was RNG so everyone hated it.

And now that tempest was properly fixed people are magically bitching about how shitty it is and how its a worthless trait. It was a bug that allowed it to multi hit shit.

AND now that we know echo works differently that we initially thought ( which was 100% broken and never would have made it live if it was like that) people are bitching about that too.
Or how about the new found hate on charges for CS. By all means remove them. lets see how good ret will be. better yet, wasn't it this entire community that was begging charges get put on zeal and CS baseline because of how "good" it felt?

honestly, if your going to complain about something like this than by all means dont look at alpha/beta notes, just play the game. its ridiculous that people who CANT EVEN TEST IT OUT THEMSELVES are moaning about how shitting things are and that x y class or spec is going to be trash tier.

[Ulthane]

you mean.... old conviction..... the one everyone hated because RNG into the spec
Or the even older one where you gained holypower..... but was RNG so everyone hated it.

And now that tempest was properly fixed people are magically bitching about how shitty it is and how its a worthless trait. It was a bug that allowed it to multi hit shit.

AND now that we know echo works differently that we initially thought ( which was 100% broken and never would have made it live if it was like that) people are bitching about that too.
Or how about the new found hate on charges for CS. By all means remove them. lets see how good ret will be. better yet, wasn't it this entire community that was begging charges get put on zeal and CS baseline because of how "good" it felt?

honestly, if your going to complain about something like this than by all means dont look at alpha/beta notes, just play the game. its ridiculous that people who CANT EVEN TEST IT OUT THEMSELVES are moaning about how shitting things are and that x y class or spec is going to be trash tier.

Well to be fair some people have held a stance about the Ashbringer traits for a while now. Im just sad that I can't be on Alpha to test things out myself. I check my damn email every day. Because once I actually get a proper feel of things because playing =/= reading in all honestly all some people can do is look at what people are talking about and go from there. Though I do agree about the bitching part. No one wants to deal with the crap RNG anymore. Some RNG is okay, SOME not anything like Divine Purpose or Seal of Casino. Heck the 10% chance on Might is pretty.. yea.

My only thing about Ashbringer is that it just appears off to me. Now maybe if I play it I will change my mind a tad but i cant so im sol and going off gut instinct and what I read.

[Coffeh]

you mean.... old conviction..... the one everyone hated because RNG into the spec

If you hated it, that's fine. But you only weaken your argument with blanket statements containing 'everyone'. You make a lot of good posts and are obviously doing a good job on beta, so you don't need to resort to that nonsense.

Personally, I'd love Divine Purpose back for ret. Those glorious times when you string together 5,6,7 TVs or storms in a row were fun. I play to have fun.

[Deleted]

If you hated it, that's fine. But you only weaken your argument with blanket statements containing 'everyone'. You make a lot of good posts and are obviously doing a good job on beta, so you don't need to resort to that nonsense.

Personally, I'd love Divine Purpose back for ret. Those glorious times when you string together 5,6,7 TVs or storms in a row were fun. I play to have fun.

Yeah, and the glorious times when DP did not proc for 1 min straight. That was fun.

Currently I am leveling a frost DK and quite enjoy the procs this class have. Killing Machine and Rime procs have a decent proc rate and can randomly alter the "rotation" but in a more rewarding way than DP and AoW ever did. I wish something similar like this for Ret, too.

[Deleted]

you mean.... old conviction..... the one everyone hated because RNG into the spec
Or the even older one where you gained holypower..... but was RNG so everyone hated it.

And now that tempest was properly fixed people are magically bitching about how shitty it is and how its a worthless trait. It was a bug that allowed it to multi hit shit.

AND now that we know echo works differently that we initially thought ( which was 100% broken and never would have made it live if it was like that) people are bitching about that too.
Or how about the new found hate on charges for CS. By all means remove them. lets see how good ret will be. better yet, wasn't it this entire community that was begging charges get put on zeal and CS baseline because of how "good" it felt?

honestly, if your going to complain about something like this than by all means dont look at alpha/beta notes, just play the game. its ridiculous that people who CANT EVEN TEST IT OUT THEMSELVES are moaning about how shitting things are and that x y class or spec is going to be trash tier.

You are overstating "everyone hated it". Procs are a good thing. They prevent the rotations from getting repetitive. This RNG is not like loot RNG. combat RNG is positive and makes your combat more exciting. Also, unlike loot RNG, it can be influenced.
So... don't diss procs, they are actually quite good. Static rotation = boredom.

I have no problem with charges, but they do have their problems. You should know this from live and the latest tier. Charges give you only 1 or 2 extra uses of an ability during a fight because it recharges one at a time. This means they are only useful if you have gaps between uses that last longer than the cooldown of all of the charges combined.
I would'nt call it a hate. It's just what it is.

Its easy to see wich classes are better by looking at the tree's and having knowledge of the game. I am not sure if that post is aimed at me or something, but you sure are exagerating. You usually get overexcited about abilities that will naturally not make it to live, and they have always been nerfed. This certainly isn't because your fellow Ret's wished it so. It's just reality.

I see lots of crappy feedback in the official forums aswell. We just have to live with that fact. Quite honestly, just the fact we lost a useless heal talent and don't seem to be in risk of Inquisition v2 anymore is cause for celebration.
But... don't have unrealitic expectations. I'm sure i warned you of this before.
Also, i'm sure everyone would like to have the option to try it. You can't fault them for something that is Blizzards fault. If you think x or y isn't going to be trash tier tell us what makes you think that. If your case hinges in a single skill though, it will be a difficult one. ^^

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, and the glorious times when DP did not proc for 1 min straight. That was fun.

Currently I am leveling a frost DK and quite enjoy the procs this class have. Killing Machine and Rime procs have a decent proc rate and can randomly alter the "rotation" but in a more rewarding way than DP and AoW ever did. I wish something similar like this for Ret, too.

That is a straight out lie. DP procs often. If you want it to proc exactly when you want, delay the use of the charges. The most time lapse before the last proc, the more likely it is to proc. It also has a what? 10 second duration within wich you can just use your generations for a perfectly timed use. Really, just cause you don't know how to use it doesn't make it bad. Also, this is presented as an option, not as something you must take. Also, the more targets you hit, the more likely it is to proc. It's mostly an AoE talent though. If you are using it for single target, you will see limitation (but surely not 1m windows).
The point of it isn't to proc all the time, but for you to use your ingenuety when it does proc. This is not like the DK procs wich are caused by auto attacks and not spenders.
This is a common problem i see. People think that if the button is shining they must use it now. It's not the case in all situations.

[Ulthane]

1 min straight sounds like t17 to me.

[Deleted]

*snip*

What Qwayne meant was the problem with DP during Cata. I also remember it well in DragonSoul - sometimes you literally blasted all dps meters with TV or DS and other times you were starving for a proc and barely made mediocre dps. Also, the fact that from vanilla - early WotLK our damage was mostly a type of "roulette" thanks to SoC earns a great deal in why many people playing Ret hate RNG.
But are rng talents and procs in itself therefore bad?

No they are not, in fact you're absolutely right when you say they excel in loosen up a rotation and make it more fun - however, if most or at least a great deal of your dps stems solely from rng abilities and procs (like it used to be on Ret) it's a bad design because of it's instability (or insecurity) and people don't want such days to return, hence many here are against such talents.
I very much would enjoy a couple more proc abilities on Legion Ret, but I'd like them to rather not interact with my main sources of damage (TV, HoPo generation, also AoE) but enhance my rotation - Overpower from Arms is a great example for such abilities. This was also the fact why I made only TV activate Emp. DS in my overhaul, if not anybody would take it for AoE and not for loosen up your standart playstyle.
This is the problem with DP, because it directly interacts with a main dps source (TV) of Ret and would inevitably either work towards nerfing TV cuz of chain procs, or be shunned and a "dead" talent to pick because it's too unreliable.

Regarding charges...I have no problem with them, in PvE they are not doing much for me if I have good uptime on a target, in PvP I love them because I exactly haven't 100% uptime and can stack charges for burst if I'm kited.

*snip*

Sorry for not being able to participate in the alpha because Blizzard seem to doesn't want me in?
This doesn't minder the fact that all here are concerned about the state they'll find their Rets in Legion. There are people that don't like charges on abilities at all, then there are people which don't like cds or that abilities are always ready to use but weak... it's different from person to person - but you can find all of them at all classes, not only Ret. Things you like on Ret may fuck off somebody else, and some things you don't want or dislike may be the main source why another one likes to play Ret.
You can only speak for yourself and for what you like, but NEVER assume all people are fine because solely you like something - they actually may hate exactly what you like.
This disunity is actually one of the main reasons why Ret IS every time in such a complicated state - because there was never a clear route for us, Ret changed drastically from expansion to expansion. Until Cata - WoD that is, were they tried to at least find a basic concept for Ret (which still had problems fitting itself into the other melee specs). Hence this, everybody has a different vision of what Ret should be. You may have your vision, but why is this particular one more right than the vision of another one?

[Deleted]

That is a straight out lie. DP procs often. If you want it to proc exactly when you want, delay the use of the charges. The most time lapse before the last proc, the more likely it is to proc. It also has a what? 10 second duration within wich you can just use your generations for a perfectly timed use. Really, just cause you don't know how to use it doesn't make it bad. Also, this is presented as an option, not as something you must take. Also, the more targets you hit, the more likely it is to proc. It's mostly an AoE talent though. If you are using it for single target, you will see limitation (but surely not 1m windows).
The point of it isn't to proc all the time, but for you to use your ingenuety when it does proc.

Why should I lie about it? I am exaggerating but surely not lying. My bias against Divine Purpose is influenced by the casino damage of T17 and here will many raiders agree with me that our damage output could swing wildy in both directions due to DP not procing for a longer time. And this has nothing to do with me not knowing how to use it...

This is not like the DK procs wich are caused by auto attacks and not spenders.

Thank you for pointing out the obvious...

This is a common problem i see. People think that if the button is shining they must use it now. It's not the case in all situations.

True, but what makes you think that I am one of these?

[Reghame]

If you hated it, that's fine. But you only weaken your argument with blanket statements containing 'everyone'. You make a lot of good posts and are obviously doing a good job on beta, so you don't need to resort to that nonsense.

Personally, I'd love Divine Purpose back for ret. Those glorious times when you string together 5,6,7 TVs or storms in a row were fun. I play to have fun.

by all means then, advocate that we have DP emp DS and conviction then all at the same time. i wont stop you. but if that shit lands dont complain about it because thats what happens time in time again. people ask for something and then complain when they actually get it and ask for more.

BTW i had NO quarrels with the first iteration of conviction, the second one i did slightly because of how easy it was to WASTE the procs. and my stance on DP is quite neutral since either way on average it would not effect me all so much.

this is why im not asking for a 20 second CD steed, i know if we get it we will lose too much elsewhere and im NOT happy for that compensation.

[Deleted]

Why should I lie about it? I am exaggerating but surely not lying. My bias against Divine Purpose is influenced by the casino damage of T17 and here will many raiders agree with me that our damage output could swing wildy in both directions due to DP not procing for a longer time. And this has nothing to do with me not knowing how to use it...

Not for defending DP - you can see my opinion in my last post here - but I must ask: Why then be biased towards DP and NOT about the T17 bonus itself? DP is longer in existence as the set bonus of T17, so why only rant about it rather than the bonus in itself and the sloppy design of it?

this is why im not asking for a 20 second CD steed, i know if we get it we will lose too much elsewhere and im NOT happy for that compensation.

A 20 sec cd steed WOULD be too much if mobility is intended to be our weakness, but you can't say a talent, or pvp talent, or whatever that transforms divine steed into a 20yd gapcloser with a cd of 40 - 35 sec would be too much. Or at the least a steed with 30 sec cd if it only lasts for freaking 4 sec.

[Deleted]

Why should I lie about it? I am exaggerating but surely not lying. My bias against Divine Purpose is influenced by the casino damage of T17 and here will many raiders agree with me that our damage output could swing wildy in both directions due to DP not procing for a longer time. And this has nothing to do with me not knowing how to use it...



Thank you for pointing out the obvious...


True, but what makes you think that I am one of these?

If like Nuin says, you mean Cata then fine. But what you described is not the case in WoD.
The T17 had you having procs constantly. So, i really can't understand you. I think you just didnt like that i was more targeted towards cleave and AoE than single target. But it was a set bonus i really enjoyed. The ability to go from single target to burst AoE instantly was amazing in fights like Thogar and Houndmaster or whatever he was called. It was your saving grace for maidens aswell. I can't even imagine how awful we would've been without it on that tier.
Of course, it was far from perfect and it forced everyone into it. That is not what i defend. I defend options. That is what a talent tree should be about.

[Deleted]

Not for defending DP - you can see my opinion in my last post here - but I must ask: Why then be biased towards DP and NOT about the T17 bonus itself? DP is longer in existence as the set bonus of T17, so why only rant about it rather than the bonus in itself and the sloppy design of it?

T17 showed the flaws of DP really good for me because we with T17 we tried to fish for more DP procs but sometimes they just wont occur.
Before T17 I've liked DP while questing or in Dungeons but after BRF and gaining T18 I have never looked back at this talent and was glad so.

You said it yourself, even without T17, DP could let your DPS swing wildy and that is the kind of procs I've learnt to hate wholeheartedly.

- - - Updated - - -

If like Nuin says, you mean Cata then fine. But what you described is not the case in WoD.
The T17 had you having procs constantly. So, i really can't understand you.

Then explain to me why my DPS could be totally different from pull to pull without doing anything different other than having proc after proc in one pull and having much less in the next pull.

I think you just didnt like that i was more targeted towards cleave and AoE than single target.

No thats not the case at all. Yeah its not really good for ST fights but it can be used there aswell because our current T17 Talents only alter the rotation but are not inherently ST/AoE/Cleave.

But it was a set bonus i really enjoyed. The ability to go from single target to burst AoE instantly was amazing in fights like Thogar and Houndmaster or whatever he was called. It was your saving grace for maidens aswell. I can't even imagine how awful we would've been without it on that tier.

Imagine what we could have done if we had a set bonus similar like T18.

Of course, it was far from perfect and it forced everyone into it. That is not what i defend. I defend options. That is what a talent tree should be about.

I agree

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I'm not a big fan of Divine Purpose but if someone wants to use it, they have every right to use it.

[Deleted]

Uhm...just for information - has anyone yet noticed that Ret seems to have no Blessing of Protection anymore? As it seems BoP is now Prot Pala only via a PvP Talent -> Blessing of Protection

If so, didn't Blizz said we'd be compensated with utility for our lack of mobility tools? Granted, we got some (2 - JV and Final Verdict) nice talents this build...but therefore lose our ally phys. bubble and 15 sec BoF cd?

[Deleted]

Uhm...just for information - has anyone yet noticed that Ret seems to have no Blessing of Protection anymore? As it seems BoP is now Prot Pala only via a PvP Talent -> Blessing of Protection

If so, didn't Blizz said we'd be compensated with utility for our lack of mobility tools? Granted, we got some (2 - JV and Final Verdict) nice talents this build...but therefore lose our ally phys. bubble and 15 sec BoF cd?

Just looked on a twitch stream and it's still there (AmanRJ on twitch).