1. #3601
    Quote Originally Posted by Kretan View Post
    Alright sweet. The thing that I was getting at was what happens if a boss's execute lasts for 25 seconds? If you can get in to execute before stack 65 or so maybe then I could see you being able to pop surrender early even before 35%.

    Extreme case, but it should make it so it doesn't lose value on farm outside of twist of fate.
    It's actually 60, but I think that with the change to slowing the Insanity drain it might allow a second use of Mindbender which could make it a bit longer.
    Shahaad , Kevkul
    <Magdalena's pet>

  2. #3602
    I have a boner for movement-casting, so I really hope they do the intelligent thing of just making it a regular fucking cooldown.

  3. #3603
    Dreadlord RsinRC's Avatar
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    Raids aren't the only place STM will shine. If it weren't for the keep dying on every boss part, dungeons would be an amazing place to abuse STM. Every boss lasts about 2-4 minutes in dungeons.

    The latency issue can be said about every talent, ability in the game some suffering more than others.

    This talent IS only for execute phases and only WITH Mass Hysteria maxed.

    This talent IS meant for fights you are ALREADY familiar with. (Which would be after the 2nd-3rd kill. You kill bosses dozens of times throughout an expansion if not more)

    There are other scenarios but for the most part this ability is for Farm status. It IS a niche talent.

    Mind Spike is the most garbage talent we have and can't even move or used in PVP yet every one is talking about how horrible a NICHE STM is even though it has way more potential/risk=reward/fun out of the 3 talents.

    Where is everyone getting at? do you want it or not? If not, choose Mind Spike or LoTV.
    Just because you don't see yourself using it does not mean everyone else isn't gonna enjoy it. I don't enjoy it because of the death part and how inconvinient that is but best believe I'm going to abuse the shit out of it when I learn my boss encounter timings and the like so by the time the boss dies, I die.

    Thats just me tho.

    BTW at sub 35% with row and the set bonuses STM will last much longer than 60 stacks. At least at this point.
    Last edited by RsinRC; 2016-03-19 at 05:15 PM.

  4. #3604
    Quote Originally Posted by Kretan View Post
    So quadratics are for dots, and nukes are linear, but our dots are a significant portion of our dmg.

    4 piece isn't going to overcome FOUR HUNDRED percent dot damage increase with a 100% haste buff......you only get TWO 4 piece procs in 100 seconds also haha. We are talking stacks 80-90 and not 30-40. Heck you get 300% dot damage bonus with a 65% haste bonus starting at 60 second lol.

    Again, don't underestimate quadratics.
    even at 400% increase over your non stm dot levels, that's only about a doubling of your overall damage from dots during execute. dots aren't even 20% of your single target execute damage right now. is that worth losing 7-14 void bolts and possibly dying? Further, the % dot damage increase is very much reliant on how legacy of the void will function with voidbolt dot extension, so even 400% increase is a stretch and that's just during execute. that's not factoring in the extra damage from lotv during the rest of the fight.

    I'm not saying that it cant be made viable if they're going to add utility to it like cast-on-the-move, which has been one of our biggest problems traditionally, just that your math is a bit off since you're talking about those graphs as representing our overall damage, instead of just our DoT damage. I'd be surprised if we used it outside of super speedkill farm mode.
    Last edited by snaxattax; 2016-03-19 at 05:24 PM.

  5. #3605
    @RsinRC

    True, it would shine in dungeons minus that pesky death part.

    Spell queuing is a thing. I've seen people with high MS play very well. Ask @Kilee25

    Yes the talent should be used in execute phases, but that's not the only place is viable

    Yes an No. If you need the movement to DPS and push the boss, then StM away.

    It is a niche talent, but not just for farm.

    Mind Spike is garbage. agreed/

    9 times out of 10 you'll take LoTV and not Mind Spike/StM. The only foreseeable problem with STM is if a boss decides to go immune during a transition phase, you're kinda screwed there. Or if you have a fight like HFA where you're sitting around for a good 10 seconds waiting on adds to spawn.

  6. #3606
    Re: Latency

    The shorter your cast times, the harder it hits you. It's been painfully obvious in WoD for two tiers now. Every time heroism is hit, my spell bar becomes a hot mess of lag and misfires. Making that window smaller would only make it worse, and even more pronounced. I'm resolved to the fact that this is just simply the way the game is moving towards. Basically if you can't get good internet, your only reasonable option is to move to a new geographical location. It's the most extreme form of "pay to win" that exists. The irony is that some people have good internet and don't even know what the deal is, and just assume everyone else must naturally suck.
    "Falling from heaven is not as painful as surviving the impact."

    DPS Loss - my guild on Proudmoore
    The Old Guard - my guild on Earthen Ring
    Revenant - my guild on Echo Isles

  7. #3607
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilee25 View Post
    everyone else must naturally suck.
    Nah it's just you :P

  8. #3608
    Quote Originally Posted by RsinRC
    Raids aren't the only place STM will shine. If it weren't for the keep dying on every boss part, dungeons would be an amazing place to abuse STM. Every boss lasts about 2-4 minutes in dungeons.
    The 10 minutes CD makes it pretty useless for dungeons I think. And the fact that you die is half the problem of the talent, not just one - If it's strong it's because you will die. It's the core idea behind it, we can't just think 'If you wouldn't die, it would be strong'. If they will remove that part, probably the talent will be nerfed somehow and may become 'meh' to prevent exploits I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by RsinRC
    Mind Spike is the most garbage talent we have and can't even cast or used in PVP yet every one is talking about how horrible a NICHE spell is even though it has way more potential/risk=reward/fun out of the 3 talents.
    People talked about Mind Spike a lot, too - we're talking about StM because it's one of the big news since the new details.

    Quote Originally Posted by RsinRC
    Where is everyone getting at? do you want it or not? If not, choose Mind Spike or LoTV.
    I think that's a poor excuse - I don't want to be restricted to two talents because one is (in my opinion) barely useable/balanceable. Sure, I'll use one of the other two, but I may be forced to and that's why I'm concerned.

  9. #3609
    it's also still annoying that we are keyholed into picking up our non damage modifying artifact bonuses, when every other spec I've looked at can leave non damage increasing talents till last if they so choose. we also have 5 non damage increasing artifact bonuses - which is a lot compared to other specs.

    http://legion.wowhead.com/artifact-c...FBYUFxQYFBkVDh for example, moonkin can get all their keystones and take only one non damage increasing artifact trait - and it's one that is probably worth getting regardless since it gives you raid utility and costs one point.

    http://legion.wowhead.com/artifact-c...zBzMIMwkzCjVDE this is the best priests can do, and it by passes our one point wonder that gives a mini PWS effect for VT which we would probably want to have for progression. we have to spend 3 points modifying dispersion which if you're using it off cooldown you're usually fucking something up, 3 points on psychic horror which is just ridiculous, and 3 points on shadowmend. that's 10 points, 6 of which should literally never be used (dispo and shadow mend) and 3 points that can't be used (when was the last time raid mobs were vuln to both fear and slow??)

    then you have the fact that the layout of our talents is quite strange. vampiric touch and SWP modifiers are on the four corners of the globe, SWPain modifier is in line with our multitarget DD talent, mind blast modifier is in line with our DOT increasing talent... it's just kinda ridiculous.

    http://legion.wowhead.com/artifact-c...TnxOgE6ET5xVJE here's affliction - who only get forced to take their ridiculously strong 1 point wonder god mode healthstone talent. whether healthstones do nothing or heal for tons, this talent is one of the strongest personal sustain options in 20man mythic.

    http://legion.wowhead.com/artifact-c...UnRSfFKAUoRVKE demo has to burn 3 points to unlock every keystone, including avoiding their 1 point wonder which also increases their dps via avoiding lifetaps. even when warlocks get fucked they get fucked 1/4th as much neat.

    http://legion.wowhead.com/artifact-c...MvEzATMRMyFUsQ destro has to burn 4 points to increase drain life and a strange health bonus when using demonic gateway which seems pretty meme-ey since gateways are generally used for the raid and not as a personal. this keystone probably won't be rushed, either, since it would only be particularly amazing in a situation where conflag damage or consistently critically striking had crazy synergy with their teir bonuses. if release tuning has conflag damage very high, the t19 bonuses might push them to this mastery and so they would get annoyed by this path too (good fuck warlocks, etc).

    mages for the most part can avoid defensive traits other than for blink, which can end up being a dps increase by packing more than 1 gcd of movement into 1 gcd. frost, however has several defensives and has to burn 4 points in things that increase stuff like ice barrier's absorb size (which is still much more raid-relevant than a heal after dispersing or the absurdity of a temporary slow after a successful psychic scream).
    Last edited by snaxattax; 2016-03-19 at 05:56 PM.

  10. #3610
    Couple Legion Shadow questions:

    1- So the new Dominate Mind talent basically allows us to have a permanent pet as long as we reapply the mind control every 60 seconds? If that's the case that is totally awesome. (Although a bit annoying to have to re-apply it every minute)
    2- With StM I'm confused about this talent, will this basically just be for raid guilds doing huge amounts of damage at the start of a fight and then b-resing the Spriest after they die? I don't really get it. What is the purpose and is there any use for it outside raiding?
    3- With Shadow Mend being so strong, this will basically make us solo farming gods will it not? (Soloing WoD raids, etc)
    Last edited by zimboombafoo; 2016-03-19 at 05:54 PM.

  11. #3611
    its unlikely that using STM and a brez will ever be useful, since STM requires that you are dead for 3 minutes before you can be resurrected. shadow mend being strong is unlikely to have a huge impact on farming since you do 0 dps while casting shadowmend, and you take backlash damage after. generally flat % reduction and leech is what makes strong solo classes strong.

    and, depending on how they tune it, yes dominate mind is very strong and fun. many raid and the strongest 5man elite mobs are immune to mind controls, however.

  12. #3612
    Quote Originally Posted by snaxattax View Post
    its unlikely that using STM and a brez will ever be useful, since STM requires that you are dead for 3 minutes before you can be resurrected. shadow mend being strong is unlikely to have a huge impact on farming since you do 0 dps while casting shadowmend, and you take backlash damage after. generally flat % reduction and leech is what makes strong solo classes strong.

    and, depending on how they tune it, yes dominate mind is very strong and fun. many raid and the strongest 5man elite mobs are immune to mind controls, however.
    so how is STM supposed to be useful if the spriest is dead for 3 minutes after using it? you can have your dot's up while using shadow mending so that isn't true..shadow mend has a short cast time, heals for a lot and the backlash isn't very much (especially with pw:shield)

  13. #3613
    Dreadlord RsinRC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djriff View Post
    @RsinRC

    True, it would shine in dungeons minus that pesky death part.

    Spell queuing is a thing. I've seen people with high MS play very well. Ask @Kilee25

    Yes the talent should be used in execute phases, but that's not the only place is viable

    Yes an No. If you need the movement to DPS and push the boss, then StM away.

    It is a niche talent, but not just for farm.

    Mind Spike is garbage. agreed/

    9 times out of 10 you'll take LoTV and not Mind Spike/StM. The only foreseeable problem with STM is if a boss decides to go immune during a transition phase, you're kinda screwed there. Or if you have a fight like HFA where you're sitting around for a good 10 seconds waiting on adds to spawn.
    Im not saying mind spike isnt viable, im daying is boring compared to the other 2.

    It isnt but in order to macimise it we need to have max potential in incoming insanity which is during execute phases. Sorta forces it into execute phases because of swd.

    It isnt just for farm but im hoping you arent gonna use it on a new encounter. Youll just kill yourself.

    The problem with your last part is IF you know that the immune boss phase is coming, why are you vhoosing stm ?

    And if a phases where you csnt damage lasts ~6s you can always disperse to pause your insanity drain. Which is very unlikely anyway lol but who knows lol

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by zimboombafoo View Post
    so how is STM supposed to be useful if the spriest is dead for 3 minutes after using it? you can have your dot's up while using shadow mending so that isn't true..shadow mend has a short cast time, heals for a lot and the backlash isn't very much (especially with pw:shield)
    Its not meant to be used before a boss dies. It has to be used that you die exactly when the boss dies. Might sound a bit unfair but we all have a sense of when something is about to die in this game.

  14. #3614
    STM will probably only be useful when you're killing a boss very very quickly or if a boss has crazy movement at the end of the fight (not unreasonable to expect to see - especially given the problems shadow had on fights like lei shen).

    I still wish they would consolidate and/or remove several of our non damaging artifact traits. the fact that on top of not increasing damage (which as a dps spec should be your aim) but are also largely useless (getting healed AFTER dispersion, putting a mini slow on mobs AFTER horror fades) are actually unlikely to ever have a significant impact on our gameplay under any reasonable scenario. even if the dispersion heal were an instant LOH it would probably only impact pvp. it just feels like they could take some of our damage increasing pvp talents and swap them with these garbage artifact traits.

    also, the most ridiculous thing is that there is a pvp talent which changes dispersion to 90% reduction whereas the stupid HoT and dispersion cooldown reduction (which are both way more useful in pvp) is on the artifact. maybe they'll add a soakable cleave to vanndar stormpike
    Last edited by snaxattax; 2016-03-19 at 06:27 PM.

  15. #3615
    If they took away the can't be rezzed part... that would be lovely. I'll be BFF forever with my guild's Warlock.
    _____________________

    Homophobia is so gay.

  16. #3616
    Quote Originally Posted by snaxattax View Post
    even at 400% increase over your non stm dot levels, that's only about a doubling of your overall damage from dots during execute. dots aren't even 20% of your single target execute damage right now. is that worth losing 7-14 void bolts and possibly dying? Further, the % dot damage increase is very much reliant on how legacy of the void will function with voidbolt dot extension, so even 400% increase is a stretch and that's just during execute. that's not factoring in the extra damage from lotv during the rest of the fight.

    I'm not saying that it cant be made viable if they're going to add utility to it like cast-on-the-move, which has been one of our biggest problems traditionally, just that your math is a bit off since you're talking about those graphs as representing our overall damage, instead of just our DoT damage. I'd be surprised if we used it outside of super speedkill farm mode.
    The initial post was only aimed at only showing a trend and showing what void form really did comparing no level 100 talent to having StM. It was showing how damage explodes with more targets, and that void form is quadratic so staying in for longer does have a benefit. It did not make a comparison to LoTV

    Here is what happens to dot damage only during the 100 seconds of execute assuming you can keep 100% up time on the 100% buffed shadow word pain comparing legacy to surrender:


    Assuming shadow word pain is half of your dot damage before LoTV, and assuming you can keep 100% up time on LoTV shadow word pain + vt, a doubling of dot damage seems like a realistic number to put on the situation.

    At this point in time, it is probably not worth taking surrender because LoTV is so strong for the rest of the fight. Having double damage in execute is nice, but i am not convinced doubling dot damage in execute only makes up for the rest of the fight right now unless heavy movement is involved. In a patchwork situation LoTV wins out over the course of the fight imo. LoTV is too strong for StM to compete outside of niche. I lowered the benefit of legacy to 25% and 12.5% a stack, and still the benefit of StM isn't enough......adds only a small gain to StM execute over LoTV. I don't think it's an issue that StM is weak, but more so that Legacy is REALLY strong.

    I would say that you do not lose void bolts. In fact I would say you gain some. You can't void bolt for the two 13 second down times, and even when LoTV re-enters void form the cooldown is longer. You gain void bolts in StM during execute if I'm not mistaken.

    I would really love to see something more comprehensive than is possible atm showing total StM damage....but it's just impossible right now. I think the overall execute benefit will be a bit more than double, but I don't think it'll be big enough because the biggest gains you see are through dots.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilir View Post
    If they took away the can't be rezzed part... that would be lovely. I'll be BFF forever with my guild's Warlock.
    Yeah I think you would need 2 StM to compete with LoTV.

  17. #3617
    Quote Originally Posted by Kretan View Post
    I would say that you do not lose void bolts. In fact I would say you gain some. You can't void bolt for the two 13 second down times, and even when LoTV re-enters void form the cooldown is longer. You gain void bolts in StM during execute if I'm not mistaken.
    you gain maybe 2 from the increased haste bonus from the linear reduction of the cooldown (one actual extra and maybe one extra on top of that from pausing insanity and getting another). you get 6-7 (with lingering insanity, you could actually get more like 10) from triggering the current 4set. you lose tons of voidbolts from removing voidforms. much more than you gain from an extra 20-30 stacks of one voidform.
    Last edited by snaxattax; 2016-03-19 at 07:21 PM.

  18. #3618
    I still don't really like StM : our 4pc kinda disappears once you use it. Also in execute phase with high amount of haste, you'll barely use mind flay => Call to the Void is kinda useless too.

    It annoys me
    _____________________

    Homophobia is so gay.

  19. #3619
    Quote Originally Posted by RsinRC View Post
    Raids aren't the only place STM will shine. If it weren't for the keep dying on every boss part, dungeons would be an amazing place to abuse STM. Every boss lasts about 2-4 minutes in dungeons.
    If it weren't for the dying part it wouldn't be Surrender to Madness. The problem with Surrender to Madness in dungeons is that the cooldown is 10 minutes. If you wipe after you've used Surrender to Madness you won't have access to another level 100 talent until the cooldown comes back up. If the cooldown resets on death, that would make it better.

    The latency issue can be said about every talent, ability in the game some suffering more than others.
    Surrender to Madness isn't the problem, though it highlights it further, the problem is Voidform reducing our GCD to such a low point. So no, you can't say that about every talent, especially when this one in particular punishes you with the harshest penalty possible if you don't play it perfectly: death.

    There are other scenarios but for the most part this ability is for Farm status. It IS a niche talent.
    Its niche can still be done a bit better to differentiate it from the safer, more consistent choice in Legacy of the Void.

    Mind Spike is the most garbage talent we have and can't even move or used in PVP yet every one is talking about how horrible a NICHE STM is even though it has way more potential/risk=reward/fun out of the 3 talents.

    Where is everyone getting at? do you want it or not? If not, choose Mind Spike or LoTV.
    Just because you don't see yourself using it does not mean everyone else isn't gonna enjoy it. I don't enjoy it because of the death part and how inconvinient that is but best believe I'm going to abuse the shit out of it when I learn my boss encounter timings and the like so by the time the boss dies, I die.

    Thats just me tho.
    Just like you have your preference, others have theirs and that's fine. You can't deny the many flaws the talent still has, even though yes Mind Spike and Legacy of the Void have their flaws as well. The big reason why Surrender to Madness is such a big deal is that it kills you. Until some of the recent changes (and announced changes) Surrender to Madness wasn't worth taking for its massive downsides, now that some of them have been alleviated we might see it get use, maybe, possibly, perhaps. We'll see.

    @Ilir , Call to the Void is RPPM which means it doesn't matter if you spend your entire rotation using Mind Flay or just once every 10 seconds. Even at high Voidform stacks you'll still use Mind Flay.

    Regarding the potential of Surrender to Madness, Wrath of Azshara in the Eye of Azshara dungeon is the perfect playground for Surrender to Madness. Fight starts at 35%, lots of movement. I died just after the boss died. Naturally this isn't a very realistic depiction but it was fun nonetheless. Logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...Y#type=summary
    Last edited by Isentropy; 2016-03-19 at 07:36 PM.

  20. #3620
    Quote Originally Posted by snaxattax View Post
    you gain maybe 2 from the increased haste bonus from the linear reduction of the cooldown (one actual extra and maybe one extra on top of that from pausing insanity and getting another). you get 6-7 (with lingering insanity, you could actually get more like 10) from triggering the current 4set. you lose tons of voidbolts from removing voidforms. much more than you gain from an extra 20-30 stacks of one voidform.
    What about the 13 second down time between void forms? Either way this is a minor point imo.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Isentropy View Post
    Regarding the potential of Surrender to Madness, Wrath of Azshara in the Eye of Azshara dungeon is the perfect playground for Surrender to Madness. Fight starts at 35%, lots of movement. I died just after the boss died. Naturally this isn't a very realistic depiction but it was fun nonetheless. Logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...Y#type=summary
    Wow yeah dots just aren't that big of a portion of your damage. I think you only take StM based on needing movement basically. Dots need to be way stronger to make up the gap to LoTV, and LoTV would have to be nerfed heavily.
    Last edited by Kretan; 2016-03-19 at 07:49 PM.

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