BLIZZARD SHAME ON YOU! Future early game...

[Nyoken]

ISNT THAT FUN?! U dont have to give a flying fuck anymore about a skillcap? Just brainless play??? Just what every idiot in this game wants..... It's just like Wall-E, everyones become fat, lazy, complacenet and don't bother doing anything by themselves anymore. Zero effort, zero shits given.

[Wolfrick]

If you had decent gear, you could solo dungeons very well with several classes during the earlier years of WoW.

Only difference was you'd have more downtime between fights.

You have no clue what you are talking about...

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They should just make all of the exp increases from heirlooms a buff you can activate, similar to the safari hat.

Leave the actual heirlooms in game as transmog items only.

AMEN! Halleluja!!!

PS: I love you

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If you want challenge, do the ironman challenge... I did it with warrior and got up to lvl 13 and riped to a caster mob.
If I want to level up my 12th character to lvl 100, I would tend to not give a flying fuck about someone raping trought the low lvl instance...

OR if you want the challenge, make a character, get on some heirlooms and go solo the instances. I recently did that with pala and it was really fun and yes I was wiping at some bosses/ trash packs (monks in Scarlet monastery hit like truck)

Mate, this is an MMO... not a single player game!

We should do things togeather not solo...

Trust me, I do have as little gear as I can, I love to level up slow and Taste each quest and lore fact.

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good stuff

Good to hear ^^

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That is a great point of view and all, and I'm sorry your game experience was ruined but your only looking it from your point of view. I've done every classic dungeon a bunch of times, I bought heirlooms so I can level quicker and be done with it already, which I can assume the tank did as well. He zerged it quickly so he could level quickly which is the entire point of heirlooms. Just because you wanted it to go slower, doesn't mean that he didn't want it to go faster.

Then you and he should get a Super Experiance buff, so that you would just need to do the instance 1 time, as I with out the buff, need to do it 3 or 4 times. this would Solv it all

[StraTosSpeAr]

low level dungeons has never been meant to be challenging ever

Yes they did.

Before heirlooms, actually.

Well, more specifically, before Cataclysm.

[Wolfrick]

Here's another self-righteous post that is completely wrong but tries to make it seem like the point is factual and objective.

News flash: There are people who want to do dungeons for a lengthy amount of time. You are not the majority. You never were. You are simply another minority in a game that houses dozens of minority groups that make up the entire playerbase.

Get off your high horse. Game didn't evolve shit except high end raiding.

Bravo my friend, well said!

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BAHAHAHA WHAT?!
Low level dungeons have never been a challenge since heirlooms but they were certainly meant to be a challenge. Before heirlooms you would need to CC/interrupt enemies, manage your mana for healing, and if an early level alchemist was in group potions were a huge plus.

I remember being lv28 rogue and doing stockades, having to sap a target and then blinding another. And then after the fight we would have to drink up and do it again. Maybe the combat itself wasn't that hard, but it was not forgiving and required management.

With heirlooms it just threw the idea of group and class management out the window and just made us so strong everything around us feels like an adult boxing against a 5 year old.

hahaha, well said my friend!!! well said ^^

[Kahmal]

With or without Heirlooms dungeons are far too easy.

It's been quite the discussion lately on how Blizzard can improve the leveling experience. It's something that they should have figured out before the Movie comes out.

I'll never forget my first time recieving a guest pass and logging into Elwyn Forest, killing Kobolds was boring, but teaming up with random people to make it quicker and having social interactions made it awesome, all while seeing my power increase. Going to Goldshire where I would first see high level players, and then getting ganked by a level 60 Warlocks and his Infernal for being dumb enough to be flagged for PvP.

At Deadmines I was completely sold. At first it was just this typical cave with Defias in it, meh big deal. Then it opens up into this smelting room, and we wipe because we didn't expect the patrols. Then this dank cave opens up and there is a giant boat we have to conquer.

Now by around TBC leveling dungeons were far easier since the veteran community understood how basic they were, and a sword and board tank not really needed. But they still had a good pacing. Now we just plow through them.

[Dorothyjean]

low level dungeons has never been meant to be challenging ever

Not that I want the dungeons to be harder because I hate leveling but there was a time they were challenging, kind of miss it... kinda don't. ;P Only real problem I have with dungeons now is how Blizzard has designed LFR to be a learning mechanism for raiding, Dungeons honestly prepare you for nothing now... you can press 1-2 buttons and kill everything quickly and the utility of your class just sits in your spellbook unused because you never need to use it for anything.

People get to level 100 and all they know how to do is DPS decently, heal somewhat and tank sort of.

[Wolfrick]

Couldn't agree more.

This is one of the things that Blizzard has done that has damaged this game horribly. Who wants to play in this way? It utterly ruins the levelling process when everything is totally easy.

I honestly nearly choked when the first reply attempted to say you were wrong in some way. This is one of the most self evident shit parts to the game now. Levelling used to be challenging, fun and rewarding. Now it's a chore. And everyone again wonders why people don't stick around and subs are cascading down.

I loved levelling before. It was really fun. You met people, because you had to team up to do stuff, because there were challenges. You also actually wanted to acquire gear - genuine upgrade - and it was rewarding to do so. Now you just get gear thrown at you so you barely even notice it and levels fly by. Then to contrast that, you can't pvp when levelling without heirlooms or you will literally be one-shotted constantly by everyone. There used to be twinks, but now it's totally mental.

Agree 100% that no new player will stick around with the game in this way.

Hard is fun. Hard is challenging. Rewards earned through hard content *feel* good. Rewards tossed at you do not feel like... anything.

The more I think about it, the more I realise that those running this game now have no fucking idea what they are doing.

OMG!!! you have to be a long lost Blood Brother!!! amazing post, and I agree with each and single word!!! let hope blizzard read this, since I dont want to tell them what to do, its just a suggestion.

In my heart I hope there are people in blizzard that played vanilla and that knows what we are talking about.

[Tart]

So true!

Its like a "Contry" tells there people to not pay taxes any more.

Those who do pay them any way, is pointed out as stupid.

and Trust me! I would keep paying Taxes, since I want to Contribute to everyones wealth!

PS: good point mate ^^

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Mate, I love this game, so I will not leave it, but I can ask blizzard to make the game better and perfect ^^

I have real Faith in blizzard and the future of World of Warcraft.

If you want things to change, you should be that change (and not just leave) ^^

Blizzard want us to experience their new content as soon as possible, the problem is I don't. A lot of people don't understand that some prefer the journey rather then the destination.

[roahn the warlock]

low level dungeons has never been meant to be challenging ever

Sounds like someone who never played deadmines before like, wrath.

[Underverse]

Seems like a troll post, but I kind of agree. Low level content has become absolutely pathetic, even if you're not decked out in heirlooms. You don't have to rub two brain cells together to figure anything out. It's all there for you - zones are highlighted to show you where to go, arrows point you the right way, mobs are weak as shit, quests are many in number and short in duration, you need hardly any experience to level, etc etc.

These are all changes that increase efficiency of leveling. And perhaps there was a time when they were useful. But that time is past us, now that we have the ability to buy a max level character. We no longer need these efficiency increasing measures to simply reach endgame.

Let us return to prioritizing fun.

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Sounds like someone who never played deadmines before like, wrath.

Yep. I think what many people don't understand is that your regular, run of the mill content used to be hard. And not just hard in the sense that things had more health and did more damage. Hard in the sense that often, you would have to figure out what exactly you were supposed to do for yourself, instead of having it handed to you by the UI.

[Kharli]

Sounds like someone who never played deadmines before like, wrath.

GG don't read my second post <.<

Right to the people who quoted me.
when I wrote "dungeons where not ment to be challenging" i meant it as a broad term as for example Deadmines which OP is talking about, it was the first Dungeon(Alliance) for humans/dwarves/gnomes, least for me at any rate.

and yes, I do remember wipeing in DM, having to go back and grab another tank from stormwind, because LFG was not in the game. (cheers for assuming i joined in 2010).

But back then, it was THE FIRST dungeon, you more or less entered, probably with a group you found in westfall. to most people i played with back then, it was a cake walk, because we knew that we could not be pulling 2-3 packs of mobs, cause our tank wear still wearing 4-7 green items at best, and the healer maybe had some 'decent' gear... 6/10 times, that was the case otherwise it was often that the tank was wearing bloody white gear, i've been there, done that.

or you had the hunter who magicly did not pull, despite the mobs rushing towards him and killing the entire group.

if you had a group of people who knew what the hell you where doing, yes it was easy and yes dungeons today is way easier.

but if you compare Vanilla Wow Deadmines to everquest dungeons..well.. it is easier, no?


http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ement#81:a4400
5th anniversary,

[Stardrift]

low level dungeons has never been meant to be challenging ever

So what, they're supposed to be absolute bore-fests that can be auto-attacked through?

[Kharli]

So what, they're supposed to be absolute bore-fests that can be auto-attacked through?

are they though? does it go easier with heirlooms? yes. but seeing as you can't seem to actully read further replies in the thread, GG.

[Kudos]

are they though? does it go easier with heirlooms? yes. but seeing as you can't seem to actully read further replies in the thread, GG.

There's definitely been power creep with heirlooms, but if people are soloing dungeons without the need of a party, then it does get boring and can impact the experiences of others. Newer players would be the most effected, which could hurt long term retention of these players.

Unfortunately, this late in the Wow's life-cycle a lot of people prefer this. Leveling isn't a journey anymore and hasn't been for a long time. It's all about the rush to get to max level and participate in the hamster-wheel of loot upgrades. When people are on their 4th, 9th, 16th character the difficulty of a low level dungeon they will complete once isn't important if they can complete it quickly, painlessly and simply move on.

I personally think it's detrimental to the game, but I would imagine I'm a minority.

[Kharli]

There's definitely been power creep with heirlooms, but if people are soloing dungeons without the need of a party, then it does get boring and can impact the experiences of others. Newer players would be the most effected, which could hurt long term retention of these players.

Unfortunately, this late in the Wow's life-cycle a lot of people prefer this. Leveling isn't a journey anymore and hasn't been for a long time. It's all about the rush to get to max level and participate in the hamster-wheel of loot upgrades. When people are on their 4th, 9th, 16th character the difficulty of a low level dungeon they will complete once isn't important if they can complete it quickly, painlessly and simply move on.

I personally think it's detrimental to the game, but I would imagine I'm a minority.

I personally don't like it either, but as you said it's a power creep, which blizzard is at fault for. the issue is there is no good solution other than group up 5 people and do dungeons that way, without heirlooms.

not a good one, but that's what you got. I also wish people could actully read the bloody thread before quoting, but hey humanity is dumb.

[Alydael]

Mate, leveling should be a Core part of an MMO, and leveling-doing dungeons, in quest gear should be the normal thing.... not shouting for people that actualy play the game as it should.

BTW, this is not a topic for how I think WOW would be, its a Topic for how WOW will be better, and a more Challenging game for eveyone, since challenge brings the right people to a game.

Well, it is easy to make WOW more challenging. Don't use heirlooms, equip lower ilevel gear on purpose, etc. Yet you don't really see players doing that, do you? I don't think most people want a challenging leveling experience. Most people playing WOW have been playing for awhile now. They have plenty of alts and have probably played through the leveling zones many times.

Not sure they are looking for a challenge the 9th or 10th time they play through Westfall again.... They most likely just want to power through to get their latest alt to max level as quick as possible...

I would also argue that forming a group with like minded people is also a core part of an mmo. Most players don't focus on leveling in mmo anymore. They run through the game to get to end game, which is what they focus on. Are they playing wrong? I would argue no. The great thing about an mmo is you (mostly) can decide how you want to play. That is why I recommended that you find a group of players that want challenging leveling (like you do). You don't have to "shout" to find them, a simple post on the WOW forums will probably do it.

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Speaking of Deadmines, it would be nice if they brought back the old version as a timewalk or similar limited event. There were some epic moments in there and I don't think the current version captures the same flavor.

[Stormspark]

Well, it is easy to make WOW more challenging. Don't use heirlooms, equip lower ilevel gear on purpose, etc. Yet you don't really see players doing that, do you? I don't think most people want a challenging leveling experience. Most people playing WOW have been playing for awhile now. They have plenty of alts and have probably played through the leveling zones many times.

Not sure they are looking for a challenge the 9th or 10th time they play through Westfall again.... They most likely just want to power through to get their latest alt to max level as quick as possible...

I would also argue that forming a group with like minded people is also a core part of an mmo. Most players don't focus on leveling in mmo anymore. They run through the game to get to end game, which is what they focus on. Are they playing wrong? I would argue no. The great thing about an mmo is you (mostly) can decide how you want to play. That is why I recommended that you find a group of players that want challenging leveling (like you do). You don't have to "shout" to find them, a simple post on the WOW forums will probably do it.

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Speaking of Deadmines, it would be nice if they brought back the old version as a timewalk or similar limited event. There were some epic moments in there and I don't think the current version captures the same flavor.

This right here is the point. If you see someone decked out head to toe in heirlooms, they are NOT a new player. They are a veteran player, who has probably been playing for a long time, levelling yet another alt. Even without heirlooms, these people know the ins and outs of the game so well they could probably zerg dungeons even without the heirlooms.

I could MAYBE see Blizzard creating an optional "no heirlooms" dungeon queue for new players. But the reality is, even if they did this, noone would use it. The better solution is this: /1 Hey, new player that wants to experience the dungeons without them being zergfest easy, anyone want to run Deadmines with no heirlooms? Would anyone go for this? Maybe, maybe not. If there is as much interest in this as the OP seems to think there is though, they would.

[Deleted]

With the new scaling technology being developed, they could theoretically let you choose difficulty levels while leveling or queuing for dungeons, think diablo style difficulty settings.

[Kahmal]

Well, it is easy to make WOW more challenging. Don't use heirlooms, equip lower ilevel gear on purpose, etc. Yet you don't really see players doing that, do you? I don't think most people want a challenging leveling experience. Most people playing WOW have been playing for awhile now. They have plenty of alts and have probably played through the leveling zones many times.

Not sure they are looking for a challenge the 9th or 10th time they play through Westfall again.... They most likely just want to power through to get their latest alt to max level as quick as possible...

I would also argue that forming a group with like minded people is also a core part of an mmo. Most players don't focus on leveling in mmo anymore. They run through the game to get to end game, which is what they focus on. Are they playing wrong? I would argue no. The great thing about an mmo is you (mostly) can decide how you want to play. That is why I recommended that you find a group of players that want challenging leveling (like you do). You don't have to "shout" to find them, a simple post on the WOW forums will probably do it.

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Speaking of Deadmines, it would be nice if they brought back the old version as a timewalk or similar limited event. There were some epic moments in there and I don't think the current version captures the same flavor.

The issue is retention though bro. Before WoTLK veteran players knew how to level quickly anyway. There were tons of leveling guides and even mods to smooth out the process. It was funner that way since the quest and dungeons could challenge you a little. Therefore the new class you were leveling you could push to it's limits to learn it.

Fresh new players to the game however, often don't stick around. There is no incentive to group, and little challenge. And doing something so asnine till level 100 can discourage them. Boosting up to level 90 can just convolute the experience also.

[Alydael]

The issue is retention though bro. Before WoTLK veteran players knew how to level quickly anyway. There were tons of leveling guides and even mods to smooth out the process. It was funner that way since the quest and dungeons could challenge you a little. Therefore the new class you were leveling you could push to it's limits to learn it.

Fresh new players to the game however, often don't stick around. There is no incentive to group, and little challenge. And doing something so asnine till level 100 can discourage them. Boosting up to level 90 can just convolute the experience also.

I don't think that fresh players aren't sticking around because leveling is too easy......

There is a lot of competition from other mmos and let's be honest, WOW is over 10 years old now. The graphics don't stand up to the other mmos at this point. Even little things like character creation.... Compare WOW's character creation to any of the newer games. Not to mention that you need a sub to play. I am surprised at this point that WOW gets any new players at all..

I think the retention issue comes more from the sub and lack of content. Most players just logged into WOD (at max level) to run a few garrison missions and raid.... That isn't going to justify the cost of a sub for most players when a lot of games are free.....