Fury Legion Discussion

[Archimtiros]

The passive is still there though.

They are hiding the health portion of it.

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Yes I would, because all of the fun, interesting stuff is in the "PVE" trees.

The point was that separating the two would allow them to make each more encompassing in of itself. I'm not suggesting removing all of the normal talent tree abilities from PvP gameplay, only that the two should not intermingle. This would potentially allow you to keep things like Storm Bolt/Shockwave, without having "never-pick" options like Ravager.

[Artunias]

I haven't really touched HFC yet, I only killed archi and a few other bosses on normal/heroic with my old guild. What exactly did they change that you don't like?

They are all focused on furious slash (in Legion), which is the most lame ability of all time.

[Deleted]

Why is anyone surprised at the T18 changes? They wouldn't put any thought into them and Furious Slash is basically a "slightly improved" Wild Strike so it makes sense to be the skill to replace it in the legion update.

[Stilllogicz]

Kind of contemplating rerolling DH dps for Legion. Been a Warrior since Vanilla. All in all currently, are you guys still enjoying Warrior on Alpha?

[Cyclonus-WOW]

Looks like they fixed it ( just posted on reddit ).

I'm a lot happier with this than the level 1 sword storm we saw earlier.

[Archimtiros]

Looks like they fixed it ( just posted on reddit ).

I'm a lot happier with this than the level 1 sword storm we saw earlier.

[IMG]snip[/IMG]

You're a dollar short and a day late my friend:

[Maltore]

How would you guys think it would feel if instead of FS, we had Heroic Strike as a baseline off-GCD ability but still gave a crit buff to BT like FS provides currently?

[Caargon]

How would you guys think it would feel if instead of FS, we had Heroic Strike as a baseline off-GCD ability but still gave a crit buff to BT like FS provides currently?

So basically furious slash off the GCD. I'd macro it into every other skill and forget about it.

[Ferozan]

I really don't think fury needs an off-GCD button now that we have Rampage to empty the bars.
It makes no sense at all.

If you are not enraged, you will do BT-FS-FS without inner rage or BT-RB-FS with it. Whirlwind would come on one of those off-gcds for AOE. Remember that BT hits 4 targets after a WW.

[Coffeh]

Are people happy with the way enrage is working right now? It just seems....weird to me. Rampage triggers it, it only lasts four seconds, and half of that time is taken up for the rampage duration. So you have basically one gcd after that affected by enrage. Is that fun? Is that powerful? Is mastery worth anything for the spec? Bloodthrist crits obviously can trigger it too, but that seems rather unreliable given the huge nerf to its crit chance. Even then, it's still only a few seconds.

I don't know. It just seems pretty lackluster for a 'spec defining' mechanic.

[Artunias]

Can you guys test something for me? Frothing Berserker talent suggests you get 30% movement speed for 6 seconds after hitting 100 rage. My question is, does this effect stay active as long as you are at 100 rage?

It does not, it procs when you hit 100 rage and counts down. It will not reproc until you drop below 100 rage and hit 100 again.

[Deleted]

Are people happy with the way enrage is working right now? It just seems....weird to me. Rampage triggers it, it only lasts four seconds, and half of that time is taken up for the rampage duration. So you have basically one gcd after that affected by enrage. Is that fun? Is that powerful? Is mastery worth anything for the spec? Bloodthrist crits obviously can trigger it too, but that seems rather unreliable given the huge nerf to its crit chance. Even then, it's still only a few seconds.

I don't know. It just seems pretty lackluster for a 'spec defining' mechanic.

You have two gcd's per enrage, not one. Pretty big difference.

I've done a lot of heroics/normals as fury on the alpha, and I definitely prefer how it works in legion. Unlike in WoD, you never sit around waiting for bloodthirst to crit, there's no room for that. Your only rage spender is rampage (and whirlwind, but in any situation where whirlwind is used meat cleaver will give you the rage back on your next bloodthirst), which means that you don't spend any rage while not enraged.

This means that there's no loss to using any of the main rotation abilites while not enraged, since the alternative is doing nothing. Enrage is a damage bonus, not a requirement for your rotation to function, which in my opinion is how it should be. You definitely want to be enraged for bladestorm, but there's battle cry to guarantee that. It sucks that you can't be enraged throughout bladestorm, but the numbers will be balanced around that.

The value of mastery will be diminished by the fact that enrage no longer has 90%+ uptime (my fury char has around 25% crit in heroics and enrage uptime is generally 60-70%), but as always there will be a balance between mastery, crit and haste.

Edit: only talked about pre-20% since the execute phase feels a lot more like on live, except with less enrage.

[Jaybee9084]

Are people happy with the way enrage is working right now? It just seems....weird to me. Rampage triggers it, it only lasts four seconds, and half of that time is taken up for the rampage duration. So you have basically one gcd after that affected by enrage. Is that fun? Is that powerful? Is mastery worth anything for the spec? Bloodthrist crits obviously can trigger it too, but that seems rather unreliable given the huge nerf to its crit chance. Even then, it's still only a few seconds.

I don't know. It just seems pretty lackluster for a 'spec defining' mechanic.

I hate it, personally. The whole God damn thing is a mess, and at the heart of the problem is that Enrage is still as important as ever while its duration has been shortened and Bloodthirst enraging is a pain in the ass. Enrage is not a 'bonus' at this point, it is the only way we have access to our mastery. You want it up 24/7, like we always have, except in Legion you now have to use two buttons to get Enraged (Bloodthirst and several Furious Slashes to prop it up) if you do not have the rage to Rampage.

You want to be Enraged for everything, and outside of Rampage Furious Slash + Bloodthirst is the only way to do it. You want to be steadily Enraged during execute? Prepare to fit in 2 or 3 Furious Slashes just to Boodthirst before you get to actually press your FUN button (or you can pray your Executes crit, since you are forced to take Massacre just to function decently sub 20% :^) ). You want to Meat Cleave? Prepare to fit in Furious Slash, a single target ability, just to make Boodthirst crit. Do you want to have an AoE rage dump? Get ready to take Meat Grinder so you can function outside of Bladestorm :^)

Not to mention the entire Dragon Roar/Enrage/Bladestorm situation is a complete joke, or that Raging Blow is almost completely useless at this point and they give zero fucks about it. "Oh we broke an ability? Take a talent to fix it :^)" DOES THAT SHIT SOUND FAMILIAR? DOES IT SEND YOU INTO A 'BERSERKER RAGE' ?

Yes, I'm mad.

[Secondwind]

The problem is one of perspective. Blizzard doesn't intend for you to sit on stuff waiting for enrage to proc, or pool resources for enrage, like in the past. You're still trying to play like it's MoP fury, when what they want you to do is hit whatever your highest priority button available is at any given time. Mastery value will be plenty high, even without a 100% enrage uptime. Furious Slash isn't meant to prop up bloodthirst, but instead acts as something you can do when nothing else wants to proc right this moment. Where in the past if procs didn't go your way, you'd just wait 4 seconds and BT again, now you can use FS and be making it more likely that you get your procs next time around.

Conceptually at least the design seems fine. I can't say for sure how it feels in play because still no alpha/beta for me. But I'm interested to try it out, and having a free reliable filler for when nothing else is available is a big reason for that.

[Coffeh]

Well those were two incredibly different responses.

[Archimtiros]

The problem is one of perspective. Blizzard doesn't intend for you to sit on stuff waiting for enrage to proc, or pool resources for enrage, like in the past. You're still trying to play like it's MoP fury, when what they want you to do is hit whatever your highest priority button available is at any given time. Mastery value will be plenty high, even without a 100% enrage uptime. Furious Slash isn't meant to prop up bloodthirst, but instead acts as something you can do when nothing else wants to proc right this moment. Where in the past if procs didn't go your way, you'd just wait 4 seconds and BT again, now you can use FS and be making it more likely that you get your procs next time around.

Conceptually at least the design seems fine. I can't say for sure how it feels in play because still no alpha/beta for me. But I'm interested to try it out, and having a free reliable filler for when nothing else is available is a big reason for that.

I agree with this except for the last part. Conceptually it's not fine, because while they may not intend for you to focus on Enrage, and instead percieve it as a "random" proc, it just doesn't work out that way in practice. This is why I was championing a change to the Enrage mechanic earlier; the concept is flawed. They want us not to care about Enrage, but tie way too many reasons to it for us to do so.

Maximizing ability usage inside Enrage is still important, maximizing Enrage uptime is still important. As much as they might want it to be a randomized proc, it's not, and is actually very consistent thanks to Rampage and Furious Slash.

Furious Slash absolutely does prop up Bloodthirst, and it shouldn't. The chance to crit on FS only serves to delay BT crits, handicapping them behind FS uses. You would get the exact same gameplay if the chance to crit was back on BT: when it fails to crit, we would still fill with FS. The net change would be less frustration, right now it feels worthless to use BT on cooldown after Enrage ends, this would allow every press of BT to feel worthwhile, even if it doesn't crit.

[Artunias]

Intended or not, and whether you've played MoP/WoD fury or not. When a damage buff that's as large as 40% even in pre-raid gear, it's going to feel bad to hit abilities you can't hit a lot without enrage being active.

There is the additional aspect that your ability to use Rampage is severely hindered without the rage gain from the 100% attack speed, it's not just a damage bonus. Additionally, Fury has enough going on in the rotation with the current design intending for you to always hit Bloodthirst on cooldown. Furious slash clutters and bloats that.

I've said it quite a bit, but separating mastery and attack speed so they can be tuned separately seems like it would be a good idea.

[Taeldorian]

The problem is one of perspective. Blizzard doesn't intend for you to sit on stuff waiting for enrage to proc, or pool resources for enrage, like in the past. You're still trying to play like it's MoP fury, when what they want you to do is hit whatever your highest priority button available is at any given time. Mastery value will be plenty high, even without a 100% enrage uptime. Furious Slash isn't meant to prop up bloodthirst, but instead acts as something you can do when nothing else wants to proc right this moment. Where in the past if procs didn't go your way, you'd just wait 4 seconds and BT again, now you can use FS and be making it more likely that you get your procs next time around.

Conceptually at least the design seems fine. I can't say for sure how it feels in play because still no alpha/beta for me. But I'm interested to try it out, and having a free reliable filler for when nothing else is available is a big reason for that.

I understand your point of FS, but to be honest, it's not really as interesting as you seem to be thinking. Sure, if our enrage doesn't pop and we don't have any procs to mess with until the next BT, we'd just be sitting there for a few seconds, and now we have something to press. While that's true, it's really not that much different. All your doing is pressing 1 button waiting for BT again. It's not really that fun to be pressing 1 button, it's the same as pressing none, really, it's not that immersive.

That's the problem with enrage being a core mechanic. We'll never really get a solid rotation until enrage becomes less involved with the spec so we can have actual damage outside of it by performing multiple abilities at a time. Also, don't forget that the extra crit chance we had on BT was taken away, which was a pretty large amount. Essentially, they took that extra % chance we had to crit with BT, and just made it into 1 ability that you press when BT doesn't crit. It feels the same to me, other than rampage.

[Secondwind]

On FS and BT interaction: If we had never had the BT bonus crit chance before, FS buffing BT crit chance would be fine, and likely seen as a positive. It's being looked upon badly mostly because of the expectation BT always crits, so people are wanting to use FS to keep BT at that same level... but that wasn't ever really the intention. Look at it from the perspective of a new player who's never seen the spec or any of the abilities before; the way it's laid out does make sense.


Now where I can agree is enrage with abilities outside the normal rotation. The core rotation of BT/FS/RB/Rampage seems like it should work pretty smoothly. (after all RB is only available during enrage anyway, and Rampage provides enrage). When you go to introduce Execute, Talented Whirlwind Procs, and Bladestorm it is more problematic. The most irksome one is probably Bladestorm (since you lose enrage halfway through no matter what you do), though I can see the point made about Execute above. I just feel like there is some better way to handle it than tearing down the FS/BT interaction.

With Execute in particular, question for those who have been following it more closely than me: is there ever a case where you would choose to use Rampage to avoid rage cap while forcing an enrage before Executing? Like if your options are 1) Rage Cap while fishing for Enrage 2) Hit Rampage 3) Hit execute without enrage; which is the correct play? And how often does that choice come up in an extended execute phase?

[Artunias]

Execute blows Rampage out of the water in DPR. Especially once you start to factor in Juggernaut. I can't think of any reason why you'd want to use Rampage to burn rage over hitting execute instead to avoid capping.

If you don't have a massacre proc using enrage will leave you with maybe the chance to hit one execute, depending on your swing timer you're stuck with the choice of having one global left on enrage between an execute and BT. If BT crits, it feels great and you get some solid executes in. If it doesn't crit you're back to where you were before hitting Rampage and it feels shitty.

Now, what I could see is if you're in a cleave situation with wrecking ball. If you get screwed but have rage the AoE rampage + enraged Wrecking Ball would maybe be worth it.