[Pre-Beta] Vengeance Discussion

[Skaiz]

Broadly speaking, it feels fun to play and the general feel somewhat reminds me of Brewmasters during MoP just without the massive AoE threat generation. When doing PUG dungeon runs I felt like they are veeeerrryy reliant on the class of healer. For example; I was chain running Halls of Valor. In all my runs I only came across three different healers, two shamans, a druid and a priest (sadly I can't remember if it was Holy or Disc). The priest could barely keep me up, and sadly I don't know priests well enough to know if that was an issue with the class or the player. One run with a resto shammy was a real struggle, lots of wipes due to healing issues, the other shaman however was an absolute champ and I rarely ever needed to pop cooldowns, and never had any "oh shit" moments. The druid did decently, however druid healing seemed to be very weak in Darkheart Thicket. They really feel like a mix between the speed and mobility of a Brewmaster and the cooldowns and sustain of a DK.

As for Demon Spikes; to be 100% honest my brain just pretends its Rune Tap and I use it pretty much the same way I had been using that. Except I also take Razor Spikes as a talent and use it sometimes for added DPS when needed.

My main complaint honestly though is that rotationally there are not enough buttons to hit. I think there needs to be more fluff/filler because as it stands right now it's pretty bland. I know that sounds contradictory to what I said initially; but as an entire package the class is fun, as a tank standing in front of a boss it's bland from a rotation standpoint.

Thanks for the testing and response. I'm kinda getting a dulled down DK vibe from the class. But without the absorbs. I really hope they can give some more life into the class and get some interesting interactions with stats or abilities going on.

[Deliverer]

Your hopes and dreams are what give angels wings.

Ahahaha well one can only hope

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These healing changes made shear less valuable since you still spawn one soul fragment which is only 60k hp for me at lvl 108 which is around 5% hp. Pain generation is really slow outside meta and damage got nerfed quite a lot tbh.

They indirectly nerfed fracture since fragment cap is still 5 so you went from 50% healing to 25% healing with full stacks. I think this makes direct soul cleave healing more valuable since 25% healing is nothing. Not enough to heal up after big hits.

[enak101]

Yea can't believe I didn't realise the cap was 5 hah, now that I know i realise i had some funny interactions with lots of souls where i thought i should have had more than 5. Ah yea thats really sad considering how little healing souls can do now + fracture spawning 2 of them, cap should definitely be raised. Can't say i'm very keen atm for this spec anymore, i wanna see some good changes before i get back into it.

[grizzlysaurusrex]

If there is a cap on how many souls you can have, there needs to be a UI element (preferably a resource bar) to track it.

[Deliverer]

There is but I will most likely make a weak aura if things stay like this.

[Skaiz]

There is but I will most likely make a weak aura if things stay like this.

With how low the possible healing of say 5 soul shards sitting on the ground looks like a amazing opportunity for them to add a fun interaction with the class. I think it would be fun if these shards could maybe be stored like warlock shards go. Or maybe a Strike that is fueled by these shards. I know it's a little warlock-like in nature. But It seems like a opportunity to add some real interaction with your abilities.
Having 25%? total healing after you achieve 5 soul shards just seems terrible at the moment. Especially since it would take a bit of time to achieve this

[Soisoisoi]

Does anyone know if it's intended for the Artifact talent "Defensive Spikes" (first 3 sec of DS you get an extra 30% parry), to only work for the first 3 seconds - even if you use DS twice in a row (for a 10 sec buff)? I'd have thought it would add up, but it isn't currently.

[Deliverer]

It doesn't work if you use DS again when The previous one is still up possibly a bug.

There has been a tons of suggestions for the class on the official forums but they still haven't changed anything. It could be a nice dps/survivability trade off to use those shards to heal or to deal extra damage indeed.

[Skaiz]

Does anyone know if it's intended for the Artifact talent "Defensive Spikes" (first 3 sec of DS you get an extra 30% parry), to only work for the first 3 seconds - even if you use DS twice in a row (for a 10 sec buff)? I'd have thought it would add up, but it isn't currently.

im guessing it wouldn't work like that. And also using the active mitigation like that would be a very bad idea. As you would be completely boned until it were to come off cooldown again

[Soisoisoi]

im guessing it wouldn't work like that. And also using the active mitigation like that would be a very bad idea. As you would be completely boned until it were to come off cooldown again

Of course, I just noticed it whilst testing and thought it was a bit weird. Wouldn't actually use AM like that in a real scenario.

[enak101]

I think the main situation it would come up is wanting to chain 2 DS in a row on some super hard hitting part of a fight or getting hit hard in a dungeon, and then you get screwed over cause you pressed it again on like 0.5 seconds left. I mean still not something you wanna do exactly but it will come up and its just a bug that will get fixed no big deal.

As for suggestions and ideas for things to do with soul fragments, i've given up thinking of things till I see a new build with big updates to the spec.

[Skaiz]

I think the main situation it would come up is wanting to chain 2 DS in a row on some super hard hitting part of a fight or getting hit hard in a dungeon, and then you get screwed over cause you pressed it again on like 0.5 seconds left. I mean still not something you wanna do exactly but it will come up and its just a bug that will get fixed no big deal.

As for suggestions and ideas for things to do with soul fragments, i've given up thinking of things till I see a new build with big updates to the spec.

I want this class to work so badly lol. The flair and theme is really cool. But viewing it from a mechanical standpoint its so frustrating. The core gameplay seems so incomplete. Yes yes. alpha and all that jazz. But like I said a while ago, Blizzard doesn't usually change core mechanics. So i guess in the meantime I just watch the class develop like a hawk.

[Pua]

But like I said a while ago, Blizzard doesn't usually change core mechanics.

I think, ultimately, that this is why beta can't launch with Vengeance in its current guise. Iterating around the edges is all that'll happen once "beta" begins, as the core mechanics will essentially be signed, sealed and delivered by that point.

It's why the "it's only alpha" brigade wind me up. Alpha is the only chance you've got of fixing something that's busted.

Come beta, you're essentially too late for that expansion in most cases.

Maybe I've just been playing a warrior and shaman for a bit too long, hoho.

[grizzlysaurusrex]

I think, ultimately, that this is why beta can't launch with Vengeance in its current guise. Iterating around the edges is all that'll happen once "beta" begins, as the core mechanics will essentially be signed, sealed and delivered by that point.

It's why the "it's only alpha" brigade wind me up. Alpha is the only chance you've got of fixing something that's busted.

Come beta, you're essentially too late for that expansion in most cases.

Maybe I've just been playing a warrior and shaman for a bit too long, hoho.

Windwalker got core changes every new tier of MoP. Brewmaster received core changes going into HFC. Really the whole monk class saw a lot of pretty big changes multiple times throughout their whole first expansion. I didn't pay much attention to alpha/beta then, but based on what happened when it was live, I'd expect demon hunters to be able to also see mechanics changes mid-expansion (though between tiers) and during beta.

[Skaiz]

Windwalker got core changes every new tier of MoP. Brewmaster received core changes going into HFC. Really the whole monk class saw a lot of pretty big changes multiple times throughout their whole first expansion. I didn't pay much attention to alpha/beta then, but based on what happened when it was live, I'd expect demon hunters to be able to also see mechanics changes mid-expansion (though between tiers) and during beta.

I understand for sure what you're trying to say. They did mess around with the mastery of WW. Maybe you are confusing new tiersets and the interactions that occur between tiers?
When I said "Don't change core mechanics" I'm talking on the level of how the class tanks. What it's primary resource, how does it prevent damage, and what is the overall theme of tanking (absorbs,healing,% damage modifiers) that sets the classes of tanks apart.

Alpha has me slightly worried at the moment as the DH seems the foundation is unfinished. They say DH is supposed to be a agile terror. But leap with a couple charges and a parry mitigation isn't really that agile themed is it?
I'm all for whats fun. I love interactions, whatever they may be. But at the moment i'm not really seeing any. Just press a few buttons get a few heals and your set atm.
Please don't interpret all the stuff I've been saying as "being a doomsayer" I just like talking about the class as it develops cause I really want to play it lol

[grizzlysaurusrex]

I understand for sure what you're trying to say. They did mess around with the mastery of WW. Maybe you are confusing new tiersets and the interactions that occur between tiers?
When I said "Don't change core mechanics" I'm talking on the level of how the class tanks. What it's primary resource, how does it prevent damage, and what is the overall theme of tanking (absorbs,healing,% damage modifiers) that sets the classes of tanks apart.

Alpha has me slightly worried at the moment as the DH seems the foundation is unfinished. They say DH is supposed to be a agile terror. But leap with a couple charges and a parry mitigation isn't really that agile themed is it?
I'm all for whats fun. I love interactions, whatever they may be. But at the moment i'm not really seeing any. Just press a few buttons get a few heals and your set atm.
Please don't interpret all the stuff I've been saying as "being a doomsayer" I just like talking about the class as it develops cause I really want to play it lol

Didn't brewmaster have Blackout Kick change from increasing shuffle amount to just providing parry? Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about I just remember people complaining about something.

I think you're right that it is missing something. I just think with a brand new class, we don't need to worry about them not continuing to iterate on it in beta. They're already approaching this alpha/beta differently than MoP so if people remain consistent and constructive in their feedback, I think we could see change all the way up to release. So I just don't think we need to be worried yet.

Right now what Vengeance looks like is brewmaster with jab (shear), blackout kick (demon spikes), tiger palm (immolation aura), and purifying brew (soul cleave) but no keg smash.

[Shamanberry]

Didn't brewmaster have Blackout Kick change from increasing shuffle amount to just providing parry? Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about I just remember people complaining about something.

I think you're right that it is missing something. I just think with a brand new class, we don't need to worry about them not continuing to iterate on it in beta. They're already approaching this alpha/beta differently than MoP so if people remain consistent and constructive in their feedback, I think we could see change all the way up to release. So I just don't think we need to be worried yet.

Right now what Vengeance looks like is brewmaster with jab (shear), blackout kick (demon spikes), tiger palm (immolation aura), and purifying brew (soul cleave) but no keg smash.

Brewmaster in alpha started with 2 different colors of chi which were used for different things, no autoattack, mitigation provided mostly by avoidance, and a channeled 2 second ability that cost 2 chi called "Shuffle" that increased stagger amount while it was up. That changed to stagger being granted by blackout kick, and they eventually added the concept of Elusive Brew before release.

So needless to say, things can change quite a bit.

The Brewmaster parallel isn't fair, IMO, because Brewmaster has always had interesting mechanics, and generally a lot going on in the background behind hitting Keg Smash. DH has Devastate (Shear), Expel Harm+Cleave in one button (Soul Cleave), and Savage Defense (Demon Spikes)... and that's basically it. There's no interaction between the abilities beyond the most basic of "spam 1 button to build rage, push your 1 button to spend rage when you get 40".

I like the class conceptually. I want it to work. The mobility mechanics are fun, and they have a few decent ideas for talents and utility. But the core of the class itself is completely uninspired, and they currently have the most simplistic combat mechanics of any tank (and that's saying a lot, since they seem to have simplified tank DPS rotations quite a bit all around). If the expansion went live tomorrow, I would not play this spec.

[grizzlysaurusrex]

The Brewmaster parallel isn't fair, IMO, because Brewmaster has always had interesting mechanics, and generally a lot going on in the background behind hitting Keg Smash. DH has Devastate (Shear), Expel Harm+Cleave in one button (Soul Cleave), and Savage Defense (Demon Spikes)... and that's basically it. There's no interaction between the abilities beyond the most basic of "spam 1 button to build rage, push your 1 button to spend rage when you get 40".

I like the class conceptually. I want it to work. The mobility mechanics are fun, and they have a few decent ideas for talents and utility. But the core of the class itself is completely uninspired, and they currently have the most simplistic combat mechanics of any tank (and that's saying a lot, since they seem to have simplified tank DPS rotations quite a bit all around). If the expansion went live tomorrow, I would not play this spec.

That's what I mean by it's missing its keg smash. Keg Smash used to tie energy, chi, defense, and offense together and was a fun button to press. Vengeance is missing this button.

[Pua]

Windwalker got core changes every new tier of MoP. Brewmaster received core changes going into HFC. Really the whole monk class saw a lot of pretty big changes multiple times throughout their whole first expansion. I didn't pay much attention to alpha/beta then, but based on what happened when it was live, I'd expect demon hunters to be able to also see mechanics changes mid-expansion (though between tiers) and during beta.

Maybe, but that doesn't really change what I said. The reality is that in the overwhelming majority of cases, little other than window-dressing changes once a spec lands in beta. It's basic form and function are invariably set, and little will be meaningfully tinkered with.

[Raiju]

Windwalker got core changes every new tier of MoP. Brewmaster received core changes going into HFC. Really the whole monk class saw a lot of pretty big changes multiple times throughout their whole first expansion. I didn't pay much attention to alpha/beta then, but based on what happened when it was live, I'd expect demon hunters to be able to also see mechanics changes mid-expansion (though between tiers) and during beta.

BrM mechanics didn't noticeably change until HFC - which is a colossal amount of time. They tried balancing the stagger mechanic as it was but couldn't, so instead reduced it's usability & brought it somewhere more inline for HFC.

WW Changed a lot because of a disconnect between players & devs - but that's a single spec and hardly the first class to undergo frequent changes.