Paragon disbanding

[Ryme]

Man, so many guilds have stopped these past years Vodka, Blood Legion, Exodus and now Paragon.

"No king rules forever, my son"

It was inevitable, eventually.

[Raiju]

Indeed. Who remembers "Death and Taxes" or "SKGaming"?

But do they really "disband"? What I read is "We have decided to stop raiding" and "Going forward I have no idea if we will be playing WoW in any capacity in the future, we will have to see what is the situation when Legion launches."

No, SKGaming merged and 'graciously' bowed out then after it was clear they couldn't knowingly exploit anymore & lost to paragon.

[Deleted]

I applaud Paragon for having managed to be on top during all this time, but other new top guilds will appear.

[Deleted]

but other new top guilds will appear.

Yes but without USSO TAUNTA the game will never be the same XD.

[Juurikkala]

It hurts my brain to read people telling, that 'limiting roster to only finnish players' ruined the guild, when it actually was one of the big reasons why they succeeded so well. Think about it. Same spirited people with samekind of humor, everyone using their native language.

Such a big story they made. Thanks about it Paragon. Proud to be finnish also in this case

[friedmudkipz]

It hurts my brain to read people telling, that 'limiting roster to only finnish players' ruined the guild

Seeing how the reason Paragon cited for not continuing was difficulty recruiting quality Finnish players, idk why that would hurt your brain. Read the post on their website.

[Simmias]

I applaud Paragon for having managed to be on top during all this time, but other new top guilds will appear.

this.

New guilds will always take over the space left behind. Usso taunta was pretty amazing though

[Deleted]

I am still sad .

[Nnogga]

If you bring up comparisons to SoO and go to warcraftlogs and check speed kill rankings and such please be advised that lots of logs got somehow deleted, not recognized in the rankings anymore or fucked up in some other random way. I tried talking to the admin about the issue but it appears that integrity for those historic rankings is sadly not a priority.

[Dracodraco]

If you bring up comparisons to SoO and go to warcraftlogs and check speed kill rankings and such please be advised that lots of logs got somehow deleted, not recognized in the rankings anymore or fucked up in some other random way. I tried talking to the admin about the issue but it appears that integrity for those historic rankings is sadly not a priority.

That's dissappointing to hear :/. It did seem like a lot of the fast kills were missing; I'm sure I've seen more consistent (and faster) kills than the ones up, which surprised me slightly (and was part of why I made the comparison). Still, the end result essentially remains the same; Gear, be it the ring, cloak, and any level of item upgrades, will trivialise mechanics by removing them if they can be brute forced. That happened as much in SoO as it does now.

[yeto]

I applaud Paragon for having managed to be on top during all this time, but other new top guilds will appear.

indeed there will alwasys be a number 1 its just not a fun way toi get rank 1

on my old server my guild was rank 10-15 ish then blizzard opened up italian relams and moved all italian players there suddenly my guild got 3 relam first achives - we didet get better we just lost all competision

[Simmias]

I've been in the top 100, but the competition ahead of us has always pushed us to get better. So if that competition leaves...

If the current worldfirst (wf) guild disbands, how does it affect the morale of the top 5-15? as in, does it increase it (since they can now go for wf) or does it ruin it because they know that they can become a wf guild, yet the only reason is because the top guild(s) have disbanded?

[nightfalls]

I've been in the top 100, but the competition ahead of us has always pushed us to get better. So if that competition leaves... If the current worldfirst (wf) guild disbands, how does it affect the morale of the top 5-15? as in, does it increase it (since they can now go for wf) or does it ruin it because they know that they can become a wf guild, yet the only reason is because the top guild(s) have disbanded?

I would imagine it depends on the circumstances. If they disband due to their own fault ("drama" is one such reason) then guilds will easily step in. Other guilds will become the new competition, and many former raiders from the disbanded guild will probably join them.

If the guild disbands due to a player exodus during a game decline, there will still be a new world first guild, but it probably will not increase anyone's morale. In that case, most of the players will probably quit versus join a new guild, and it's not like they are the only players quitting either.

[nomorepriest]

Question is, how many top 20 10/25 man guilds from DS->SoO died? 40-50% For an entire expansion doesn't really seem bad. At a quick glance (Take top 20 and see if the guild did any kills in SoO - not sure which method you used), out of top 20, these guilds didn't do anything serious in SoO:

#1 ???? - chinese first to kill madness, can't do the name. Disbanded.
#2 Stars - on "life support", from top 10 material to top 100.
#4 Paragon - Went 10 man instead (Later reformed in the end of SoO).
#7 Exodus - Disbanded.
#8 Wings of Aurora - Disbanded.
#9 Vodka - Disbanded (later reformed in WOD).
#11 Ground Zero - Went 10 man instead.
#12 Wraith - on "life support", from top 20 to top 1000.
#14 Zenith - Disbanded.
#15 Enigma - Disbanded.
#16 Pulse - Disbanded.
#19 For The Horde - Disbanded.
#20 Slashcry - Disbanded

So that's 45% guilds dead. 10% struggling to stay alive, taking heavy hits in rankings because of it (Life Support). And 10% struggling so much that they had to downsize to 10 Man. Depending on how you look at it, that's either 45-55% or 45-65% (we all know Paragon went 10 man because of struggling to find proper recruits, so I'd personally count that as a "dead" 25 man guild - if it was a choise to go 10 with the ability to remain 25 I wouldn't).

Also,

#13 Apex gets a slight mention as they went from rank 13 to 45 - that's a severe fall, but probably not bad enough to call them "on life support". They were dead by the next expansion, though (their last tier).


That's worse than your numbers - 40% disbanded VS 45%, without bothering to get into semantics about the struggling/downsized guilds.


For 10 man, we have:
#1 In Extremis - Disbanded.
#2 Silent - Disbanded.
#3 [russianname] - Disbanded.
#4 Hordlinge - Disbanded (Merged with Moonz, #13, to form Moonzlinge).
#5 Overtake - Disbanded.
#6 Angered - Disbanded (Now reformed on Draenor? I think).
#7 Crakers - Disbanded.
#8 Incredible Miracle - Life support/Disbanded, from top 10 to top 8000 (11/14 HC, didn't finish the tier).
#9 [Chinesename] - Disbanded.

#11 [Chinesename] - Disbanded.
#12 For The Horde - Disbanded.
#13 Moonz - Disbanded (Merged with Hordlinge, #4, to form Moonzlinge).
#14 Why So Serious - Disbanded.
#15 STeam - Disbanded.
#16 Realm First - Disbanded.
#17 X Team Raiders - Disbanded.
#18 [Chinesename] - Disbanded.
#20 Quantum - Disbanded.


Moonz and Hordlinge merged to form a single (living) guild to do 25 man, which I guess means one of them counts as dead.

You'll notice the only guilds left totally out of this list is #10 and #19.
#10 Infinite Challenge is a little odd. They did well on 10 man Garrosh (rank 49 world had asia been on the world score), then got a top 100 kill on 25 two weeks later. So their 10 man quality dropped a ton, but they also managed to expand into 25 man, so I guess they count as alive.

And #19 Loot FTW managed to persist, with slightly worse ranks (19->29).


So that's a best-case scenario of a 85% mortality rate for the 10 man guilds. Again, far worse than the numbers you threw up.

So are we sure it's really a case of "HERP DERP 20 MAN KILLED THE GUILDS WAAAH" - or could it be the fact that through an entire expansion, guilds tend to die off (and new ones be made in their place)? Your numbers actually comes out in favor of 20 man raiding; FAR more guilds lived through the expansion this time around than previously, with no changes to raid size (DS->SoO was all pure 10/25 with "same difficulty").


EDIT: Just noticed you only took top 10 10man guilds.
In that case, 10 man guilds had a 80-90% mortality rate; You can count Hordlinge as being disbanded (90%) or as living due to merging with Moonz (80%), and Infinite challenge persisted.
Still, a best case scenario that's worse than your numbers.

Great post.. Wow just crazy to see there might be a new era of "top 10"
Wonder where they all went?

[Beoren]

At this stage of the game its necessary to have 10man Mythic in order to keep players in the game, i know tons of players that quited (include me) just because there is no 10man option today.

1. 10 man mythic allows smaller groups that cleared Heroic to try Mythic instread of getting bored and eventually quit.
2. it makes it easier for guilds leaders to build and manage thier roster.
3. it allows friends to group up and play mythic.
4. It makes Mythic pugs available - 20man pugs are almost immpossible.
5. some players enjoy more the smaller raid size - it feels different.

I'm dissapointed that its no longer an option today and thats why im unsubbed.

[Cracked]

Great post.. Wow just crazy to see there might be a new era of "top 10"
Wonder where they all went?

Most quit. Those left joined other guilds, many of whom are in the new top guilds.

[Deleted]

1. 10 man mythic allows smaller groups that cleared Heroic to try Mythic instread of getting bored and eventually quit.
2. it makes it easier for guilds leaders to build and manage thier roster.
3. it allows friends to group up and play mythic.
4. It makes Mythic pugs available - 20man pugs are almost immpossible.
5. some players enjoy more the smaller raid size - it feels different.

I don't think you could pug hard mode 10man easily when it was unnerfed (let alone now you have the mythic lockouts on top). I get the points about the casual feeling of 10mans (casual in the friendly-relations sense) but I think it is simply worse than 20man by being way too small. I get that 25man was way too big and it often felt messy and annoying by its complexity but one should not do the mistake and equate it to 20mans. 20mans do not feel extremely big. I can have a sense of all 20 players in the raid at all times, at least in a general sense, something that I never felt in 25mans where I always felt like I've no idea what 4-5 players are doing. In 10mans I distinctly remember being bored by the people themselves since you will have 2 or 3 talking most of the time and that gets old, not because of their fault, but there's only so much you can tell with 4-5 active social people. In a 20man, you will always have 6-7 people being active in that regard, not making you feel bored.

In general, 20man is the perfect solution. Not too big, not too small. It had to be in multiples of 5 because of some technical issues with healing, raid frames, and other technicalities of that sort.

At the same time they had to restrict it to a certain size for the competition because otherwise it was tainted by doubts of fairness.

[Kazuchika]

At this stage of the game its necessary to have 10man Mythic in order to keep players in the game, i know tons of players that quited (include me) just because there is no 10man option today.

1. 10 man mythic allows smaller groups that cleared Heroic to try Mythic instread of getting bored and eventually quit.
2. it makes it easier for guilds leaders to build and manage thier roster.
3. it allows friends to group up and play mythic.
4. It makes Mythic pugs available - 20man pugs are almost immpossible.
5. some players enjoy more the smaller raid size - it feels different.

I'm dissapointed that its no longer an option today and thats why im unsubbed.

Yeah because things like Mannoroth would be possible with 5 of your 6 dps tied up in DKs right?

This is just another "my guild wasn't good enough to find 10 more raiders so we gave up" post.

[Sinyc]

Instead of blaming 20man mythic why not blame the fact the game is just shit

Or the fact that people get older, get married, have kids, etc etc. No reason to name call towards the game because you don't like it. When the more obvious reason is my first sentence.

[kamuimac]

Yeah because things like Mannoroth would be possible with 5 of your 6 dps tied up in DKs right?

anything is possible if tuning is done correckly not by retarded staff who tunes it worse then interns could.