Old wow vs new wow

[RickJamesLich]

Remember what I said earlier? Can you make that amount without actively working to make gold? The video may indeed get 6k of gold per day, but his entire garrison is designed for gold-making, plus he does all of the work orders, and all of the herb/mine stuff, to sell for gold. He's working for it. The average player doesn't bother with that every day.

And you know the average player doesn't do stuff like get herbs from their garrison how? lol. Only the top players know how to make followers that get extra gold from those garrison missions? lol come on man, don't waste my time here. And this is a big part of the reason why a lot of people don't like WoD in the first place, garrisons are awful gameplay.

... Word of mouth only? Go to Google and type "WoW private server" and you'll get a big list of not only WoW private server pages, but also Top 10/100 lists of WoW private servers. The existence of illegal servers is common knowledge, and to find one is very, very easy. But again, mentioning other non-WoW games is irrelevant, because they're not WoW. Otherwise, on the same token, I could point out that since Hearthstone has over 10 millions players, and since it is free, I could say yes, "being free" is a huge motivator.

Doing a google search on something isn't "advertising". That is something you actively have to seek yourself. That being said you are still ignoring the fact that people have literally tens of thousands of options for free games to play so if they wanted to simply play something for free, why would they choose wow out of all of the other options? Again do you play games because of the price or because you have fun playing them? Let's get at least an honest answer from you on this one.

Except I am not comparing communities. I'm comparing the game's original mechanics and design. A vanilla game (1x across the board) then is the same as today. And if you're going to say they're 'more successful', try again when the number of people playing a private server is bigger than the number of players on retail. And how exactly does Vanilla 'encourages making smart sales and purchases', really?

There are a lot of reasons why private servers aren't as popular, they are illegal and have zero advertising. That being said vanilla actually had more subscribers then WoD, despite "advancements".... and I use that term loosely. Did you ever try buying a mount, for example, in vanilla? Gold was far more rare than today. Watch the garrison video again lol. I bring up communities because some people are looking for that in an MMO. And if that's not your thing, more power to you, I'm merely explaining why some people think vanilla is superior to WoD.

[Ielenia]

And you know the average player doesn't do stuff like get herbs from their garrison how? lol. Only the top players know how to make followers that get extra gold from those garrison missions? lol come on man, don't waste my time here. And this is a big part of the reason why a lot of people don't like WoD in the first place, garrisons are awful gameplay.

They know. They just don't bother. You just said it, at the end: it's not compelling gameplay. Sure, I can make a huge lot of gold if instead of having fun with the game I do all the garrison herb garden/mine and have a JC and Inscription huts on all my alts to get as much gold as possible, etc, etc, but I wouldn't be having fun, I'd be working to earn my time on the game. You may say "it's only for a few days" but that doesn't change the fact you're still working and the average player doesn't log in every single day into the game. For all we know, those "few days" you are talking about may be all the time the player has to play WoW.

Doing a google search on something isn't "advertising". That is something you actively have to seek yourself. That being said you are still ignoring the fact that people have literally tens of thousands of options for free games to play

I am ignoring them because they're irrelevant. Want to know why they're irrelevant? It's...

so if they wanted to simply play something for free, why would they choose wow out of all of the other options?

... because the other games are not WoW and people want to play WoW. How is this so hard for you to understand?

Again do you play games because of the price or because you have fun playing them? Let's get at least an honest answer from you on this one.

Both.

There are a lot of reasons why private servers aren't as popular, they are illegal and have zero advertising. That being said vanilla actually had more subscribers then WoD, despite "advancements".... and I use that term loosely. Did you ever try buying a mount, for example, in vanilla? Gold was far more rare than today. Watch the garrison video again lol.

The mounts back in Vanilla were stupidly over-priced. People would reach 60 and still spend a long time riding 60% speed mounts because they didn't have the gold to guy the mounts that cost over half a thousand gold. That isn't much different from today, as the best mounts cost several thousand gold, sometimes up to over a hundred thousand gold.

I bring up communities because some people are looking for that in an MMO.

And I say it's irrelevant because we're discussing a game and it's features, not its community. A good community can make even working at a sewage treatment plant without gas masks to avoid the putrid smell a passable experience, if you got a good community around you at work.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Because he game has just gotten sooooo much better.
If WoW had the tech it has now and the world it had in Classic it would be infallible, but there are just way too many quality additions to come to the game to ever say Classic is BETTER than live wow. You may enjoy both or neither, but you are lieing to yourself if you compare them both side by side and say Classic is the superior game.

I for one am actually playing a TON of classic though, as its a great time sink for when I feel bored with Live. But I am keenly aware of how little there is actually to do in Classic once you are 60. So its a trade off really. I can never really play too much of Classic or TBC for too long because there is essentially nothing in the game to do other than dungeons and raids which typically contain very little interesting gear and absolutely no incentive to do it after you have what you need. As I said, if the tech from even just TBC was in classic it would be amazing. But once they started nerfing leveling content in mid TBC the game just changed entirely.

[RickJamesLich]

They know. They just don't bother. You just said it, at the end: it's not compelling gameplay. Sure, I can make a huge lot of gold if instead of having fun with the game I do all the garrison herb garden/mine and have a JC and Inscription huts on all my alts to get as much gold as possible, etc, etc, but I wouldn't be having fun, I'd be working to earn my time on the game. You may say "it's only for a few days" but that doesn't change the fact you're still working and the average player doesn't log in every single day into the game. For all we know, those "few days" you are talking about may be all the time the player has to play WoW.

Again, do you have any evidence that the average player skips using their garrison? Or is this just something you assume? We do agree at least on it being awful gameplay. I remember when you originally responded to me you said I was making huge assumptions yet now you engage in the exact same thing.

I am ignoring them because they're irrelevant. Want to know why they're irrelevant? It's...

They can easily just play on retail for free at that point though. I think that's what you keep forgetting.

Both.

So if you play games because they are free and because they are fun, why aren't you playing on the private server for wow?

The mounts back in Vanilla were stupidly over-priced. People would reach 60 and still spend a long time riding 60% speed mounts because they didn't have the gold to guy the mounts that cost over half a thousand gold. That isn't much different from today, as the best mounts cost several thousand gold, sometimes up to over a hundred thousand gold.

The mounts having a steep price meant you had to be careful with how you spent the gold you earned, added a level of strategy to the game. You could of course save up for it, but then it meant you may have to deal with other consequences such as not being able to level professions right away, skip enchants or even skip some gear or consumables. May not be your cup of tea, but having to carefully think about which option to take, for some people makes things a lot more interesting.

And I say it's irrelevant because we're discussing a game and it's features, not its community. A good community can make even working at a sewage treatment plant without gas masks to avoid the putrid smell a passable experience, if you got a good community around you at work.

You can't discuss vanilla wow without bringing up the community lol, that makes up a huge portion of the gaming experience.

[Tackhisis]

Cataclysm was the pinnacle of WoW. In the later expansions they started to turn it into the grindfest, and it was a dreary grindfest before. The only thing that made pre-WotLK WoW playable is the lack of great games around 2004.

[Deleted]

because they are insecure about the current game.

[Draahl]

vanilla when it came was such a huge step forward for MMO's, i played all those old ones and it was an enormous leap. TBC improved on that leap, and thats why i loved it so much. Tbh ive NEVER cared about sub numbers, what other people think of the game i play i couldnt care less about. I dont know why people make such a fuss about what other people think, does it really matter too you?

[Daffan]

Old Wow was better because you couldn't skip content and nothing was obsolete.

New WoW has much better quality of life, graphics, sound and mechanics - raids etc.

The same dummies who like skip mechanics and catchup mechanics are the same dummies in New WoW who complain there is no content. Old WoW was better because it didn't have any of that trash.

[Deleted]

Why is there so much hatred from so many people towards old wow?

There is a very simple explanation to this...

The guys who utterly loved and adored old Wow have all prettty much left the game as the game overall has moved away from what they liked. But... the guys still playing the game are those who hated old Wow and prefer what the game has become... it really is that simple.

[Deathquoi]

Every expansion is new by term (even WoD) yet you can't see people glorifying them post-LK.

Also, if someone started the game in 2004 and says BC was the best, does the "it's all new" excuse still apply to him? That guy already invested ~3 years into the game at that time.

It was still newish. I started in January 05 and I would say the new car feeling didn't wear off for me until LK.

[Ielenia]

Again, do you have any evidence that the average player skips using their garrison? Or is this just something you assume? We do agree at least on it being awful gameplay. I remember when you originally responded to me you said I was making huge assumptions yet now you engage in the exact same thing.

It's not a "huge assumption" when it's based off the idea that is shared by many that the Garrisons are lackluster and disappointing at best, horrid at worst. I have yet to meet anyone who isn't actively trying to make money tell me they do every single work order in their garrison, as well as the Herb Garden and Mine, every single time they log in.

They can easily just play on retail for free at that point though. I think that's what you keep forgetting.

I'm not forgetting anything. You are the one either forgetting or willfully ignoring the fact that your account is still on a limited time access, and if you don't "pay"-- either with the subscription money, or with a token-- your account gets locked. It's not completely "for free", you still have to work for it.

So if you play games because they are free and because they are fun, why aren't you playing on the private server for wow?

One: those servers are illegal. Two: retail WoW's content drought already bothers me, so why would I play on a server where that is everlasting?

You can't discuss vanilla wow without bringing up the community lol, that makes up a huge portion of the gaming experience.

And that, by itself, is the downfall of many pro-vanilla arguments, because even if Blizzard made those servers, the community it'll create won't be the same as the communities of yore. And again, we're talking about the game. The game, and its mechanics, features, upsides and downsides. We're not talking about the players.

[RickJamesLich]

It's not a "huge assumption" when it's based off the idea that is shared by many that the Garrisons are lackluster and disappointing at best, horrid at worst. I have yet to meet anyone who isn't actively trying to make money tell me they do every single work order in their garrison, as well as the Herb Garden and Mine, every single time they log in.

That being said, yes the garrison is boring, but to pretend average players don't use it for free gold is laughable. I don't think the average player is as unintelligent as you describe... if the game has a system to get very easy money, that will be abused, even by average players and noobs. If there was some level of skill or complexity here I'd be inclined to agree, but with the garrison, you just travel few feet, collect herbs, mine ores that are also close by, and then put follows on missions. After that you visit the AH. Not as tricky as complicated as you make it out to be.

I'm not forgetting anything. You are the one either forgetting or willfully ignoring the fact that your account is still on a limited time access, and if you don't "pay"-- either with the subscription money, or with a token-- your account gets locked. It's not completely "for free", you still have to work for it.

We've already discussed getting the money for WoW tokens is not hard but on top of that, it's much easier than grinding gold in vanilla, where it can take weeks to get something like an epic mount, for example. In this case, there really shouldn't be anyone on private servers because it's just easier to play WoW on retail for free with wow tokens and garrisons. Yet we don't see this happening, and I think it's pretty clear that it mainly has to do with the majority of players viewing WoD as being extremely boring.

One: those servers are illegal. Two: retail WoW's content drought already bothers me, so why would I play on a server where that is everlasting?

I think the definition of "content drought" is the problem here. On retail for example, you can see all of the content in the game in about a week. On private servers, between gearing up and getting into raids, it's going to be about a year easy before you are able to start clearing naxx. Of course WoW does come out with new content, but that usually lasts about a week or two once more, before you have to wait another year. This is exactly what happened in WOD lol.

And that, by itself, is the downfall of many pro-vanilla arguments, because even if Blizzard made those servers, the community it'll create won't be the same as the communities of yore. And again, we're talking about the game. The game, and its mechanics, features, upsides and downsides. We're not talking about the players.

Another big assumption man lol. You gotta stop with those. Those types of communities have come back on the private server. They even got the chinese gold farmers back. The players are a huge aspect of the game too, you can't talk about an MMO without the players. With zero players, you don't have an MMO any longer.

[cirdanx]

Interesting post.

Because he game has just gotten sooooo much better.

Why? What has become better? Explain yourself If you make a statement like that you better explain why, because everyone can say that.

If WoW had the tech it has now and the world it had in Classic it would be infallible, but there are just way too many quality additions to come to the game to ever say Classic is BETTER than live wow. You may enjoy both or neither, but you are lieing to yourself if you compare them both side by side and say Classic is the superior game.

What tech are you refering too? Graphic improvements? They don´t matter much. What tech do you mean? X-Realm? LFG tool? These things that essentially destroyed the rather good community that classic had? That forced people to group up and thus didn´t enable selfish only behavior you could get away with it? The boring faceroll leveling or boring progression system that only gives a new talent here and there instead of giving me something every level?

And i´m not saying that Blizzard didn´t improve on quality of life things, but that´s kinda a given as the game develops more and more. And yet still, you can easily find an addon that is even better for such things like bags etc that does it better...not much work on Blizzards side when it comes to that.

I for one am actually playing a TON of classic though, as its a great time sink for when I feel bored with Live. But I am keenly aware of how little there is actually to do in Classic once you are 60. So its a trade off really. I can never really play too much of Classic or TBC for too long because there is essentially nothing in the game to do other than dungeons and raids which typically contain very little interesting gear and absolutely no incentive to do it after you have what you need. As I said, if the tech from even just TBC was in classic it would be amazing. But once they started nerfing leveling content in mid TBC the game just changed entirely.

That can only mean you are playing on a privat server, something i did too. And yes, there isn´t much to do because they are not officialy updated by Blizzard (duh). There was a steady curve of progression in classic, so you didn´t run out of content that easily, of course that meant dungeons and raiding and luck, pvp and farming etc. But that´s what you do today too, well, if you can be bothered that is. But it´s not only less but also less rewarding and often pointless.

This isn´t about replaying the old content, it´t about how the game changed as a whole. And you might think i´m lying to myself, but i would take the original vanilla system (slower progression, slower power curve, less obsolete content, pvp honor system, talent trees, emphasis on working together in the open world, difficult dungeons that don´t allow for much mistakes etc etc) over the current linear game where meaningless gimmicks like treasure hunt, pet battles or app like games like the garnisson are used to overshadow their lack of put in work for the real game.

*shrug*

[Seefer]

It's because of all the idiots that are like "omg vanilla/BC was the bestest ever!" It wasn't, it was just new. In terms of gameplay quality and actual time spent doing fun things the game is in a much better place over the past few years than it ever was in the early days. Vanilla was awesome because it was all brand new and we were all exploring but a lot of the systems in the game were really unrefined and it was a massive grind fest.

Then why are those same people bitching about lack of things to do? Please explain this one, oh yeah and there was the same "lack of things to do" complaints from Cata-MoP as well so don't try and blame only Warlords.

[Ielenia]

That being said, yes the garrison is boring, but to pretend average players don't use it for free gold is laughable. I don't think the average player is as unintelligent as you describe... if the game has a system to get very easy money, that will be abused, even by average players and noobs.

I didn't say the average player doesn't use their garrisons for gold. I'm saying they don't optimize their garrisons for maximum gold output, and likely don't do everything in their garrisons every single time they log in.

We've already discussed getting the money for WoW tokens is not hard

It's not just that. The game is not "100% free" because there is still a payment of sorts that must be done every single week, working to get the token. And it's still gold being lost for the player, that he or she will have to use to buy a token instead of buying something else in the AH or paying for an enchantment or two.

I think the definition of "content drought" is the problem here. On retail for example, you can see all of the content in the game in about a week. On private servers, between gearing up and getting into raids, it's going to be about a year easy before you are able to start clearing naxx. Of course WoW does come out with new content, but that usually lasts about a week or two once more, before you have to wait another year. This is exactly what happened in WOD lol.

It depends greatly on your definition of 'see content'. Because, for that matter, anyone can 'see' the content of vanilla in about the same time, if not less, if all we're doing is 'seeing'. As for this 'about a year before you can start clearing Naxxramas', I have no idea at all how one could find that a 'good' thing, especially for players who started later in the game.

Another big assumption man lol. You gotta stop with those. Those types of communities have come back on the private server. They even got the chinese gold farmers back. The players are a huge aspect of the game too, you can't talk about an MMO without the players. With zero players, you don't have an MMO any longer.

"They even got the chinese gold farmers back." And that is a good thing... how, again? But again, the communities aren't part of game mechanics. Communities aren't 'game features'. Communities aren't class balance. Communities are just communities, they are not the game, the software itself.

- - - Updated - - -

What tech do you mean? X-Realm? LFG tool? These things that essentially destroyed the rather good community that classic had? That forced people to group up and thus didn´t enable selfish only behavior you could get away with it? The boring faceroll leveling or boring progression system that only gives a new talent here and there instead of giving me something every level?

Those features didn't 'kill' the community. The community 'killed' itself. It's not Blizzard's fault that the community itself gravitated en masse to the most convenient path when they added features to help players get groups. An analogy here to what you wrote is basically blaming gun manufacturers and their products for murders.

[Deathquoi]

Then why are those same people bitching about lack of things to do? Please explain this one, oh yeah and there was the same "lack of things to do" complaints from Cata-MoP as well so don't try and blame only Warlords.

People have ALWAYS bitched about a lack of things to do.

[Kazgrel]

Why is there so much hatred from so many people towards old wow? Anytime someone says they like something about van/bc, they are immediately hit with a storm of "STFU YOU FOOL, TAKE YOUR ROSE TINTED GLASSES OFF, THE GAME SUCKED THEN AND ITS 10000% BETTER NOW. NO I DONT CARE IF THE GAME HAD 4 TIMES AS MANY PLAYERS THEN, IT SUCKED AND EVERYTHING YOU LIKE IS JUST BLIND NOSTALGIA"

I dont get how these people can blindly worship every design choice blizzard makes in new wow, yet hate on the same company for all the old wow design choices.

Personally I think these people are so much invested in the game and have such an emotional attachment to it that they compulsively need to defend it, as acknowledging its current flaws would somehow invalidate all the time they invested in it.

Because there's a new thread every day on here going on and on about past iterations of WoW (with vanilla being the biggest FOTM recently) and how they are better/harder/more immersive/etc., and it simply gets old seeing the same threads/arguments being rehashed.

For the record, WoD is a steaming turd compared to any previous iteration of WoW, imo...including Cata. But I would rather see the game try to work it's way forward and climb out of the shitter than trying to press rewind on the whole thing.

[Pengekaer]

Thats a good one :P

I utterly disagree. I just played abit on Noltalrius and you know what? I find vanilla-combat alot more exciting if ye, slower-paced. You had a lot of abilities and the mobs were hard/really gave a fight. As such, the abilities were to be used with more consideration and the danger of overestimating urself/using the abilities inefficiently was very real and present. Today, one really does not have to use the majority of abilities. I play shadow priest (lvl 100 main char) and honestly, most of my abilities I never really use. This was ALOT different in vanilla, it was more like: use the abilities at hand or die.
It added intensity to the combat in a way which modern-day wow lacks.
Plus, the community on Noltalrius, at least, is much much better than in modern-day WoW. Srsly. It is also vital to a good experience. I can't speak for vanilla community though (how it was back then), as I didn't play vanilla .

[Pengekaer]

Because Jesus Christ it's been 11 years.

Let it go.

Warcraft 3 is 13-14 years old, but still fun? At least to me, it is. :P
Why is age an argument against a game?

[cirdanx]

Those features didn't 'kill' the community. The community 'killed' itself. It's not Blizzard's fault that the community itself gravitated en masse to the most convenient path when they added features to help players get groups. An analogy here to what you wrote is basically blaming gun manufacturers and their products for murders.

I disagree. In every aspect.

First the analogy is wrong and silly. There is no relation you can even draw with all your fantasy to make that work as an analogy. A gun is a not a social medium that you can effect. You are just selling a product. What the people do with it is out of your reach.

This is not the case with WoW. Blizzard has all the power here. They dictade everything. Your analogy would only work if the producer of your gun would come over to your house and tell you what to do with your gun, and when. It´s nonsense.

Second. You can totally control where the community goes. In fact, i would say YOU should do that. The community wraps around your game, not the other way around. At least, it shouldn´t be the other way around. If you make a game where people can only group with talking with each other and patience, like in vanilla, you create a more friendly environment because people will be nice to each other so they can do certain tasks, and in this process even might overcome certain ill-will and form groups..guilds..communities. It´s a natural thing.

If you give out a tool, so people can easily group up, you put loot infront of the social aspect, and oh shame, i played thru that. And suddenly you have people backdrop to a selfish attitude. You didn´t need a good group anymore, because obviously they also had to change the difficulty to adjust to random groups, 2nd mistake, so not only it became more and more easily, it also emphazised a solo play style. One without any form of consequences.

Blizzard holds all the cards, sure, they might thought that this was a good idea, but then i would say that they don´t understand human behavior or their game for that matter.

Blaming the people who play the game on how it is designed, is, in my view, idiotic. The devs are responsible for the content and mechanics, not the player. It was Blizzard that consequentially adds features and changes the game in a way that ends up hurting it. In my opinion that started with WotlK and if everything, the big spikes and loses in subs during the time until we reached WoD are a sign of this, and it resulted in the biggest loss of subs any game has every had in history. You can only bullshit people for soooo long and even diehard fans have enough one day.

*shrug* I´m not suggestion anything, WoW will be around for many years. But it was them who killed the game, not the people who play it.