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  1. #21
    Herald of the Titans PickleballAce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bio347 View Post
    Soulburn as pure utility will never work out as long as it consumes a Soul Shard. We learned this as far back as Cataclysm, actually.

    In combat, if you have a Shard spender that does damage (or amplifies it or otherwise increases DPS) it will take 100% precedence over any Shard spender that does no damage unless the latter is overwhelmingly powerful in effect. And maybe not even then.
    Anyone who has ever cast a single Ember Tap over the past couple of expansions has done exactly what Soulburn does. An instant Brez or an emergency heal to save your life aren't necessarily "overwhelming", but the DPS sacrifice can be sufficiently rewarding if it prevents a wipe.

    Out of combat, spending a Shard to generate an effect is essentially a worthless gesture. You'll probably wait for it to regenerate before you attack anything anyway. At that point, why not just make the effect baseline or its own discrete spell?
    Soulburn on Live gives us access to instant pet summons, an additional sprint to our gap opener, and instant application of all our DoTs. Should we really expect all these things to be baseline? Never mind the old bonuses to Drain Life and Healthstone, instant Soul Fire, etc.
    You're either getting that stuff with an opportunity cost or you're not getting it at all.

    Never burned a Soul Shard to insta-summon a pet while running back from a wipe, or used the old waterwalking effect for fishing? The OoC stuff was actually somewhat useful if lacking mindblowing in-combat utility.
    Last edited by PickleballAce; 2016-03-18 at 06:47 AM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rethul Ur No View Post
    Anyone who has ever cast a single Ember Tap over the past couple of expansions has done exactly what Soulburn does. An instant Brez or an emergency heal to save your life aren't necessarily "overwhelming", but the DPS sacrifice can be sufficiently rewarding if it prevents a wipe.



    Soulburn on Live gives us access to instant pet summons, an additional sprint to our gap opener, and instant application of all our DoTs. Should we really expect all these things to be baseline? Never mind the old bonuses to Drain Life and Healthstone, instant Soul Fire, etc.
    You're either getting that stuff with an opportunity cost or you're not getting it at all.

    Never burned a Soul Shard to insta-summon a pet while running back from a wipe, or used the old waterwalking effect for fishing? The OoC stuff was actually somewhat useful if lacking mindblowing in-combat utility.
    The problem is, most of the time only 1 version of a spell is useful. As we use Grim Sac, we don't use shards to sum a pet. SB: SS costing 2 shard means it is mostly useless and we seldom use the 1 shard version even. I do at council, as it SHOULD be a damage increase to swap over max duration/stacks DoTs to a new target over 1 haunt, but I didn't do the math to confirm .

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Rethul Ur No View Post
    Anyone who has ever cast a single Ember Tap over the past couple of expansions has done exactly what Soulburn does. An instant Brez or an emergency heal to save your life aren't necessarily "overwhelming", but the DPS sacrifice can be sufficiently rewarding if it prevents a wipe.
    I dunno man, I think if your argument for secondary-resource-based utility spells is "people use Ember Tap" you've lost that argument. Because, no, people don't use Ember Tap.

  4. #24
    No way am I sad to see this go its usefulness in no way outweighed its uselessness. Good bye soulburn and good riddance!

  5. #25
    Brewmaster Zinnin's Avatar
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    I've always enjoyed the more utility aspects of Soulburn, Soulburn: Teleport being one of my most used and favorite parts of it. I think as long as it remains purely utility and doesn't stray into the rotational field like it did with SB: Haunt I would love to see it return. Now that all locks share soul shards I think it would be a cool way to spice up our utility.

  6. #26
    Herald of the Titans PickleballAce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bio347 View Post
    I dunno man, I think if your argument for secondary-resource-based utility spells is "people use Ember Tap" you've lost that argument. Because, no, people don't use Ember Tap.
    The stubborn "take Ember Tap off your bars and never cast it" dogma is a bit overplayed and dishonest. Of course you're not hitting Ember Tap in PvE unless it's a dire situation, but any raiding Destro Lock that has died to damage that isn't sudden massive overkill and still had Embers got outplayed by AI.
    Last edited by PickleballAce; 2016-03-20 at 05:48 AM.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinnin View Post
    I've always enjoyed the more utility aspects of Soulburn, Soulburn: Teleport being one of my most used and favorite parts of it. I think as long as it remains purely utility and doesn't stray into the rotational field like it did with SB: Haunt I would love to see it return. Now that all locks share soul shards I think it would be a cool way to spice up our utility.
    I'm not so sure if useing DPS resources for Utility is a good idea as most of the times it will be considered useless even if it is not.

  8. #28
    Removing another interesting spell.... But no. We are not dumbing shit down folks. Please carry on.

  9. #29
    Brewmaster Zinnin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinuvial View Post
    I'm not so sure if useing DPS resources for Utility is a good idea as most of the times it will be considered useless even if it is not.
    Ember Tap, Instant cast Summons weren't considered useless. Death Strike and Conversion aren't considered useless on Death Knight. Recuperate has often been considered an amazing spell in Rogue. As long as the value gained in utility is equal in value lost in damage I think it can be a very solid and interesting decision. I find a lot of the time its easier to justify asking for more power on utility if there is an actual cost associated with using it.

    Sure in raids there is most likely less value in a utility Soulburn, but everywhere else; world, smaller group size dungeons, pvp, there can be a ton of value of strong utility with a cost.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinnin View Post
    Ember Tap, Instant cast Summons weren't considered useless. Death Strike and Conversion aren't considered useless on Death Knight. Recuperate has often been considered an amazing spell in Rogue. As long as the value gained in utility is equal in value lost in damage I think it can be a very solid and interesting decision. I find a lot of the time its easier to justify asking for more power on utility if there is an actual cost associated with using it.

    Sure in raids there is most likely less value in a utility Soulburn, but everywhere else; world, smaller group size dungeons, pvp, there can be a ton of value of strong utility with a cost.
    I know what you mean and I have used fury/shards for an instant summon before during a raid because a boss decided my demon was in the way. But Soulburn demonic circle? Never, I certainly can't calculate on the fly if I should and that probably part of the problem. Especially when I use SB: Haunt talent and need all my shards for that. Hence I can understand why most people would call such a feature useless for raiding.

    Embertap is useless to raiders for helping the healers, it heals next to nothing and a proper healer should keep you alive. However dieing when an Embertap could safe you is also not that bright .

  11. #31
    Brewmaster Zinnin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinuvial View Post
    I know what you mean and I have used fury/shards for an instant summon before during a raid because a boss decided my demon was in the way. But Soulburn demonic circle? Never, I certainly can't calculate on the fly if I should and that probably part of the problem. Especially when I use SB: Haunt talent and need all my shards for that. Hence I can understand why most people would call such a feature useless for raiding.

    Embertap is useless to raiders for helping the healers, it heals next to nothing and a proper healer should keep you alive. However dieing when an Embertap could safe you is also not that bright .
    Not every spell has to be useful in all scenarios. How often do you use Fear in a raid encounter? Would you consider that useless? The fun part of utility choices is that they aren't rotational, if you think it isn't worth to cast, you don't have to. On the flip side there are many people that do find them worth casting and use them more often than you would think.

    I do think its a decent feedback if those spells feel like a trap. I know on the Shadow Priest side of thing there was a lot of criticism that Psychic Horror costs shadow orbs since it has a long cooldown and high cost. I think depending what the effects are opinions of it could go both ways.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinnin View Post
    Not every spell has to be useful in all scenarios. How often do you use Fear in a raid encounter? Would you consider that useless? The fun part of utility choices is that they aren't rotational, if you think it isn't worth to cast, you don't have to. On the flip side there are many people that do find them worth casting and use them more often than you would think.

    I do think its a decent feedback if those spells feel like a trap. I know on the Shadow Priest side of thing there was a lot of criticism that Psychic Horror costs shadow orbs since it has a long cooldown and high cost. I think depending what the effects are opinions of it could go both ways.
    The cost also depends on the spec. Affliction has random shard generation, Demonology swims in em and they are mostly guaranteed, Destruction has a bit of both I think. Affliction and Destruction have a clear price attached to a shard being used for utility and that sure is allot of damage. Cost could be hard to balance.

    In WoD I feel soulburn adds allot of traps to affliction. Iirc regular soulswap and SB: Soulswap are Traps in most cases, when I feel they shouldn't be. IF there is a second target that lasts for the whole duration 1 regular soul swap should benefit me compared to manually putting up the DoTs and use it on Haunt.

  13. #33
    Brewmaster Zinnin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinuvial View Post
    The cost also depends on the spec. Affliction has random shard generation, Demonology swims in em and they are mostly guaranteed, Destruction has a bit of both I think. Affliction and Destruction have a clear price attached to a shard being used for utility and that sure is allot of damage. Cost could be hard to balance.
    This is a totally legitimate concern I could see working against the mechanic as a whole, depends on what the effects are though. For example; demo has the most to gain / lose by having an instant cast pet summon so I don't think it would be hugely impact if it was less 'expensive' for demo to cast soulburn: summon. However, if there were more effects like "Soulburn + Unending Resolve = Damage reduction of Unending Resolve increased by 10 percent and duration increased by 2 seconds." I could see the fact that it costs 'more' for Affliction to feel bad.

  14. #34
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    Yes, I do. One of many reasons why I dont like legion aff.

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