Keep LFR out of Legion!

[Deleted]

Because we understand its a mmo and can see the harm of fucking up the entire progression tree outside of raiding? Why not go play skyrim if you want a solo game?

You sound like Greg Street. Fortunately you have as much influence as like him on further WoW game development.

[vicious796]

If you honestly believe that to be the case so be it. Keep wondering why 5 million left then. I can't convince you of otherwise clearly.

I mean, that's really, really ignoring the entire world outside of the WoW, isn't it? You don't think the rise of F2P games has anything to do with people questioning why they are donating $15/month for an experience that they can (arguably) get outside of it for $0? You don't think that nostalgia only works for so long before people snap back to reality and remember the reasons they left in the first place?

See, there's a couple of core problems that lies in the belly of the "make WoW super hard 'again'" argument - the game is tired. Don't get me wrong, I still love the Universe and the stuff that goes on in it, but is the game easier today or have we all just gotten better after playing it for a decade? Second, and perhaps most importantly, the market speaks for itself - it doesn't want brutally difficult games *as a baseline*. That's why "Dark Souls", as a whole (4 retail packages), hasn't even sold 10 million copies despite having rave reviews from "hardcore gamers" and "The Division" sold that, as a new IP, in its first week while still being a bit buggy and known as repetitive. That's why, even when dropping 5 million subscribers - as you love to point out - WoW is *still* the king and "more difficult" MMORPGs, such as FFXIV and Wildstar, don't really make any ground - despite having their own versions of automated matchmaking.

I'm sorry, but the genie is out of the bottle and TBC is *never* coming back for at least two reasons - 1) it wouldn't be commercially viable today and 2) it already happened and you can't recapture that flame of "newness". For you and many others, NOTHING is ever going to compare to TBC because literally NOTHING is going to take you back in time and erase all of your experience between then and now. That's the nostalgia drug talking and you can chase that dragon from now until forever - you'll never catch it.

[khalltusk]

Yeah that nearly 50/50 split.

But hey why let petty facts detour your desire to run for the hills.

33% vs 52%. Thats not close and thats on a site where a more hardcore/committed fan base resides. So a vocal minority. You might want to check next time.

[Glorious Leader]

33% vs 52%. Thats not close and thats on a site where a more hardcore/committed fan base resides. So a vocal minority. You might want to check next time.

Yea you have to adjust for a serious confirmation bias on this website. Not to mention the pole is hardly scientific.

[Desparil]

33% vs 52%. Thats not close and thats on a site where a more hardcore/committed fan base resides. So a vocal minority. You might want to check next time.

Its their new trend "numbers dont mean anything unless they support our view"

[Deleted]

33% for getting rid pf LFR and 52% in favour of keeping it, is hardly 50/50, but hey, don't beat yourself up over it, obviously the majority is in favour of keeping it, pointless arguing over it or trading insults, seems like a playground tussle, I'm better than you because ( insert any mundane juvenile reference).

[primalmatter]

I mean, that's really, really ignoring the entire world outside of the WoW, isn't it? You don't think the rise of F2P games has anything to do with people questioning why they are donating $15/month for an experience that they can (arguably) get outside of it for $0? You don't think that nostalgia only works for so long before people snap back to reality and remember the reasons they left in the first place?

See, there's a couple of core problems that lies in the belly of the "make WoW super hard 'again'" argument - the game is tired. Don't get me wrong, I still love the Universe and the stuff that goes on in it, but is the game easier today or have we all just gotten better after playing it for a decade? Second, and perhaps most importantly, the market speaks for itself - it doesn't want brutally difficult games *as a baseline*. That's why "Dark Souls", as a whole (4 retail packages), hasn't even sold 10 million copies despite having rave reviews from "hardcore gamers" and "The Division" sold that, as a new IP, in its first week while still being a bit buggy and known as repetitive. That's why, even when dropping 5 million subscribers - as you love to point out - WoW is *still* the king and "more difficult" MMORPGs, such as FFXIV and Wildstar, don't really make any ground - despite having their own versions of automated matchmaking.

I'm sorry, but the genie is out of the bottle and TBC is *never* coming back for at least two reasons - 1) it wouldn't be commercially viable today and 2) it already happened and you can't recapture that flame of "newness". For you and many others, NOTHING is ever going to compare to TBC because literally NOTHING is going to take you back in time and erase all of your experience between then and now. That's the nostalgia drug talking and you can chase that dragon from now until forever - you'll never catch it.

I think they should go back to the market that made them. Riot and steam are not making bank from their games because everyone is a winner come get a reward.

Yes free to play exists but it is no where close to being able to offer what wow currently is capable of. In the future this might not be the case but for present the closest I can think of is guild wars and that isn't really close at this point.

I don't believe the race should be to the bottom.

[Deleted]

If the casual-haters designed the game, it would be as bad as when hardcore-haters would design the game.

The best idea to start is not wanting to remove rewards or game components, but just to find ways to improve them.

Mythic raiding is adressing a very few, and not interesting for most players. It is completely hyped by blizzard and being abused to become something like an eSport, while a MMORPG just is not useful for eSports. Mythic raiding never will adress a large audience. Its meritocracy creates asshats in forums that demand to remove everything else. It creates elitism and a toxic community.

LFR is adressing a lot of players, and just has nothing you actually could call "gameplay". The only intrinsic incentive to play LFR is the narrative.. which wont keep players playing for longer than some weeks.

How to fix the first? And how to fix the second?

[primalmatter]

33% vs 52%. Thats not close and thats on a site where a more hardcore/committed fan base resides. So a vocal minority. You might want to check next time.

The no vote is split into every category...

Damn son you are trying to tilt the argument so hard I gotta put my monitor on its side.

[Osmeric]

If the casual-haters designed the game, it would be as bad as when hardcore-haters would design the game.

No, it would likely be far worse, since there are many more casuals than there are hardcores. A game designed by hardcore haters could at least be commercially viable. A game designed by casual haters would be like WildStar.

[primalmatter]

33% for getting rid pf LFR and 52% in favour of keeping it, is hardly 50/50, but hey, don't beat yourself up over it, obviously the majority is in favour of keeping it, pointless arguing over it or trading insults, seems like a playground tussle, I'm better than you because ( insert any mundane juvenile reference).

lol combo breaker of people who can't read charts...

I am not even in favor of removing lfr. This is rather funny at this point

Tell me jester do you juggle too?

- - - Updated - - -

No, it would likely be far worse, since there are many more casuals than there are hardcores. A game designed by hardcore haters could at least be commercially viable. A game designed by casual haters would be like WildStar.

Wildstar is closer to WoD then tbc...

Did anyone actually play Wildstar or do they just reveal in the reviews of it?

[khalltusk]

The no vote is split into every category...

Damn son you are trying to tilt the argument so hard I gotta put my monitor on its side.

No the others are "split on this" (so in effect "don't know") and the last one is "other" so is not clear. The Keep LFR is 52% and get rid of LFR is 33%. You really need to check your self next time as you're looking silly right now.

[Deleted]

No, it would likely be far worse, since there are many more casuals than there are hardcores. A game designed by hardcore haters could at least be commercially viable. A game designed by casual haters would be like WildStar.

Both parts of the community, if they even exist, contribute to the game community. Yes, toxicism mainly comes from elitism, but on the other hand those people write guides and make streams. You get that funny raid show at blizzcon with a very happy Hazzikostas. And casual gamers, at end, pay the sallary and the great assets the mythic raiders may use.

There is a symbiosis. Mythic raids are bringing prestige and the big show, casual gamers are the blood of the game and pay the fun.

[kary]

33% vs 52%. Thats not close and thats on a site where a more hardcore/committed fan base resides. So a vocal minority. You might want to check next time.

Rofl. MMO-Champ is nothing but casual crybabies that whine for loot constantly.

Anyway, I raid mythic and I don't want lfr to go. I wish they didn't try to lure me there with valor, but as it stands currently it's perfect non raid related progression for lazy people.

[Baconeggcheese]

All we have is the participation metric to base it on and feed back from the vocal community.

Which means all we have to go on is cognitive bias, since we have no meaningful data.

Still Normal mode which is what LFR was made for has far less people running it than LFR.

But what's important there is why. Again, purely using participation is not a real metric when measuring success, it ignores many many factors that make up why participation is so high. And remember, the participation number we have is based on mmochamp fishing for achievement data, which at best gives us a not entirely accurate sample of people who did something at least once and not what the sustained participation is like or why people are participating.

It's a lot like looking at how many people payed for a single subscription month in wod, and then determining how successful wod was based on that. Or seeing how many people did garrisons, and determining garrisons were successful because of that and ignoring everything else.

You need to think about why so many people did something even the one time, how many of them wanted to do it in the first place, how many actually enjoyed it after doing it and would potentially want to continue doing it, how many were doing it entirely for rewards and not because they gave a shit about that content. How many were doing it purely because it was the path of least resistance, etc etc etc.

People like myself for instance are guaranteed to participate in LFR, though we would still like it removed. But you would count me participating in it as me approving of it by just looking at participation and not looking at why I participated.

Good or bad is purely subjective. As far as blizzard cares its another Stat they can use to wrangle cash to continue raids. If you worked in any business you know or should know how this works by now. When you try to get a budget etc you wrangle stats in your favour. LFR lets them do just this.

At the cost of the quality of the game, which I have a hard time supporting. I would rather the game be designed by people who want to make the best possible mmorpg than having those peoples hands tied and forcing them to put systems in the game that actually hurt the game just so that they can justify a feature to shareholders who don't care about the integrity of the game as opposed to short term profits.

Ghost crawlers comment is pretty famous im surprised you've never seen that one. - http://manaflask.com/articles/ghostc...ty-and-raiding its on there.

I've seen lots of things ghostcrawler or any blues have said, but I don't remember all of them verbatim and a lot of times they get taken out of context. Like what people are forever doing with that *LFR allows for more raid content* quote.

I remember that as the grandma convo personally :P, I also don't see anywhere in the article where he said players quit when challenged. Could you point to it specifically? I might be missing it.

Though you're using ghostcrawler as an example to defend LFR here when ghostcrawler has said:

Q: real talk: LFD and LFR, ultimately, at the end of the day, all is said and done, bad for a game?
A: I still don't know. (OccupyGStreet)
If you put a gun to my head I'd say LFG with harder dungeons and no LFR. But it's a crap shoot. (OccupyGStreet)
Easyish Naxx and LK dungeons set expectations that were hard to ever undo. Maybe LFG was just a symptom at that point. (OccupyGStreet)

and this is after he stopped working for blizzard where he started speaking more freely. So while he's still uncertain, his inclination is that the game would be healthier with LFG and harder (note "harder" doesn't necessarily mean to the logical extreme) dungeons with no matchmaking in the game. The dudes also said "The best way to play almost any game, including League, is with friends." as well as many other quotes disparaging LFR and game systems that promote a more "solo" play style. I'm the not sure if that's the guy who one wants to use to try and defend LFR.

Apologies I thought you implied wraths setup was good from an earlier post.

To clarify I was talking specifically about 10 man normal in wrath, not about the entire end game structure.

[primalmatter]

No the others are "split on this" (so in effect "don't know") and the last one is "other" so is not clear. The Keep LFR is 52% and get rid of LFR is 33%. You really need to check your self next time as you're looking silly right now.

Rather then watch you grasp at straws again and again lets agree that mixed and removed are roughly the same...

People see a need for change. I don't think lfr should be removed just placed between normal and heroic dungeons i would hate for them not to see the content after all.

[Deleted]

Is this "How to argument a vote until someone believes it says the different from what it says"?

[Sansnom]

I am here to educate and from what I have seen so far in the thread. Well something tells me you would learn better from a billy bat then a hug.

If that is what you call it.

[primalmatter]

If that is what you call it.

At the very least I broke you out of your repeating loop.

Progress is progress

[khalltusk]

People like myself for instance are guaranteed to participate in LFR, though we would still like it removed. But you would count me participating in it as me approving of it by just looking at participation and not looking at why I participated.

What we can do is look at the higher participation raids like Normal Heroic and Mythic, and from when I last looked all 3 combined don't match the total for LFR. Mythic and Heroic alone are lower than Normal by a long way. So it is safer to assume most people who run LFR don't raid higher (and we did have previous expansions data to rely on like mop armoury checks which are not perfect but gave us a good idea that LFR had more people total run it and simply did not step up to higher modes.).

Now with out anymore data we can't do much else. All we can point out is that Match making is simpler to use and gives players a safety net. You dont need to rely on getting into a group you can just get one given to you.

Most games use match making these days and those that dont struggle for multiplayer. I think that + the lower difficulty lowers the barrier for entry as previously people just did not really raid. If I can find the exact quote for you I will btw (If anyone has it to hand feel free to link. Its the "players dont rise to the challenge they quit one" from GC while he worked at blizzard).