Nearly 20% of Trump Fans Think Freeing the Slaves Was a Bad Idea

**Breccia** · 2016-03-21, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by Nobleshield

IIRC from what I learned in American history class, first of all the Emancipation Proclamation was for show since the Confederacy was technically its own country at the time

I'm not convinced that's true. The Union disagreed with the departure, fought the war over it, and won. And I don't believe any country had official diplomatic relations with the Confederacy as separate from the Union. Now, the Confederate states certainly believed they were, but the winner gets to write the history book.

**Breccia** · 2016-03-21, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by Bighud44

Little known fact, the North had MORE slaves than the South.

Citation needed. You might find this Snopes article a good place to start.

**Sentynel** · 2016-03-21, 07:25 PM

Everybody is entitled to their opinions. If there are people who think it was a bad idea, that's all fine and good.

**Garnier Fructis** · 2016-03-21, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by Bighud44

Just like when it was reported that Trump said he wanted to deport Muslims. When he NEVER said such a thing. He said that we should deport Muslims that are here illegally and are doing terrorist acts.

A funny thing to note is that this is actually redundant 'policy,' because he already called for the deportation of all people in the country illegally, which necessarily includes Muslims who are here illegally. Another funny thing is the deportation of terrorists instead of arresting them. I guess we really don't care then if they go bomb someone else, like UK or Israel.

So we've clarified his position from one dumb policy to a combined redundant and dumb policy. Glad we sorted that out.

**purebalance** · 2016-03-21, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by Garnier Fructis

I didn't know that not getting into a shouting match with someone is pandering to them.

No he pandered by allowing them to have their way instead of shutting the whole rally down like he was telling them he'd do. And by not having security remove them. Oh and letting them be there to begin with given the fact that it's a racism terrorism group founded on a lie(white people are more likely to die by a police officer's hands than a black person in the US).

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Originally Posted by Breccia

Citation needed. You might find this Snopes article a good place to start.

Yeah that was a pretty silly statement considering the fact that the South at the time was farmland and the north was getting more industrialized which slaves didn't really do much factory work.

**Skalm** · 2016-03-21, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by Daethz

Yet our politicians won't even let us see their honesty, they do nothing but lie and vote for exactly what their funders want them to vote for.

Sanders wants to stop big money from buying elections - His campaign was destroyed
Trump is so rich big money can't do much to help or stop him - At least they wont control him.
Hilllary is under complete and utter locked in control from her funders.
-So was Obama.
-So was Mitt Romney.
-So is the GOP
-So is the Democratic Party.

As you pointed out, this is exactly why 'big wigs' from both Parties do not want Trump as President. He does not need their money, which means they cannot buy him off to vote for stuff in their favor.

OT: Yeah it was good to free the slaves, but they all should have been put back on boats and sent back home to Africa.

**Garnier Fructis** · 2016-03-21, 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by Tonus

As to your "little known fact", it's little known because it's totally untrue. Normally when I see a claim like this I go on a wikipedia search to prove the person false, but your claim is so manifestly ridiculous that I can assert it's false and feel comfortable not even bothering to research it. Link me a single reputable source backing up your claim that there were more slaves in the North than in the South, and we can discuss it.

I've heard somewhere of a dubious statistic that more northerners owned slaves than southerners, but even if that's true it still ignores the giant detail that a southern individual that owned slaves owned a lot of them, so that the proportion of slaves in the North to those in the South was still negligible. It's basic spin to try and get around the historical fact that the South had more a vastly larger number of slaves.

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Originally Posted by purebalance

No he pandered by allowing them to have their way instead of shutting the whole rally down like he was telling them he'd do. And by not having security remove them. Oh and letting them be there to begin with given the fact that it's a racism terrorism group founded on a lie(white people are more likely to die by a police officer's hands than a black person in the US).

This is the kind of shit statistics that ignores that when you're comparing two groups of different sizes for some property like this (likelihood of being killed as a member of this group), you have to compare fractions of the groups instead of raw numbers otherwise it's a meaningless comparison.

If you have 900 X and 100 Y, and police kill 20 X in a year but only 10 Y, you can't just go ahead and conclude that as an X, your chance of being killed by a police officer is higher than if you were a Y. You can't do it because it's just plain wrong: a member of X had a 20/900 = 2.2% chance of being killed in that year, but a member of Y had a 10/100 = 10% chance of being killed that year. Clearly as a member of Y you have a higher chance of being killed than as a member of X.

And that's what people are complaining about. Disproportionately more black people are killed or get locked up in prison than other groups. It's no small wonder that they get mad when people try to pretend like they not only don't have it worse, but that they actually have it better by performing unsound analyses to arrive at conclusions like yours.

**purebalance** · 2016-03-21, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by Garnier Fructis

I've heard somewhere of a dubious statistic that more northerners owned slaves than southerners, but even if that's true it still ignores the giant detail that a southern individual that owned slaves owned a lot of them, so that the proportion of slaves in the North to those in the South was still negligible. It's basic spin to try and get around the historical fact that the South had more a vastly larger number of slaves.

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This is the kind of shit statistics that ignores that when you're comparing two groups of different sizes for some property like this (likelihood of being killed as a member of this group), you have to compare fractions of the groups instead of raw numbers otherwise it's a meaningless comparison.

If you have 900 X and 100 Y, and police kill 20 X in a year but only 10 Y, you can't just go ahead and conclude that as an X, your chance of being killed by a police officer is higher than if you were a Y. You can't do it because it's just plain wrong: a member of X had a 20/900 = 2.2% chance of being killed in that year, but a member of Y had a 10/100 = 10% chance of being killed that year. Clearly as a member of Y you have a higher chance of being killed than as a member of X.

And that's what people are complaining about. Disproportionately more black people are killed or get locked up in prison than other groups. It's no small wonder that they get mad when people try to pretend like they not only don't have it worse, but that they actually have it better by performing unsound analyses to arrive at conclusions like yours.

Actually no. The statistic I cited is actually still higher chance to be killed by a cop as a white person even when accounting for population. While using raw numbers it's clearly higher, there is a higher chance to be killed as a white person than a black person by a cop in the US. Hence BLM is a load of shit.

Also, citing that it's the cops for why more blacks get put in jail is a cop out rather than admitting they actually commit more crimes.

**Svifnymr** · 2016-03-21, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by Tonus

But in the end, the North did it, at tremendous cost. When the war ended, is it all that shocking that they just went home? How can you seriously blame them for the failures of the South?

When I think of how the North behaved in the Civil War, I'm awed. I'm proud of my country, that a force of people fought hard for a principle, not even for their own profit, and that they won after 4 years of horrible bloodshed, during which our country was substantially transformed. I don't think about what they could have done better.

I think of it like WW1 vs WW2. WW1 ended with so much in ruins and the victors wanting reparations. WW2 ended with so much in ruins and countries investing in the defeated to bolster them and not lead to more suffering.

Not that anything was perfect or there weren't problems by any means, just saying that the North invaded, destroyed, declared the slaves free and left. The slaves had no money, and only vague political statements that they were entitled to something. The southern economy was in ruins for all, and if the North thought that this would lead to less racism and the whites would suddenly embrace their former slaves and band togethor, they were just stupid. And hell, it's not like Northern black communities were well integrated anyway.

**Skalm** · 2016-03-21, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by Svifnymr

I think of it like WW1 vs WW2. WW1 ended with so much in ruins and the victors wanting reparations. WW2 ended with so much in ruins and countries investing in the defeated to bolster them and not lead to more suffering.

Not that anything was perfect or there weren't problems by any means, just saying that the North invaded, destroyed, declared the slaves free and left. The slaves had no money, and only vague political statements that they were entitled to something. The southern economy was in ruins for all, and if the North thought that this would lead to less racism and the whites would suddenly embrace their former slaves and band togethor, they were just stupid. And hell, it's not like Northern black communities were well integrated anyway.

The north knew exactly what they were doing, they were not stupid. They had a war, and they needed Soldiers. What better way to get them than by being their 'Savior' and freeing them, then telling them to fight for you, to help them...

Deleted · 2016-03-21, 07:53 PM

Maybe thinking that doesnt mean we should have kept slavery but more like abolish it and send the slaves back instead of giving then citizenship.

Deleted · 2016-03-21, 07:55 PM

1. They probably phrased it in a confusing and/or misleading way.
2. How many people did they ask.
3. Was it really random or did they pick out the hillbillies on purpose.
4. People who make this kind of polls make me support whoever they are trying to drag through the mud...it's dirty politics, and a pathetic attempt at it.
5. Every single presidential candidate is a fucking joke at the moment, how the US hasn't risen up to demand new candidates or a massive boycott is beyond me.

**oxymoronic** · 2016-03-21, 08:00 PM

nobody with a brain thinks today is the best way it could have turned out. even jefferson had questions on what to do with the slaves. personally i feel it would have been better to send them all back to a new country on the west coast of africa when they set them free. call it liberia

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Originally Posted by Cherise

Maybe thinking that doesnt mean we should have kept slavery but more like abolish it and send the slaves back instead of giving then citizenship.

bingo - i mean nobody today thinks having slaves is really how we are intended to live. you guys call me crazy all the time but i could never imagine owning somebody like that. nobody should have to live like that, even if they are black.

**Garnier Fructis** · 2016-03-21, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by purebalance

Actually no. The statistic I cited is actually still higher chance to be killed by a cop as a white person even when accounting for population. While using raw numbers it's clearly higher, there is a higher chance to be killed as a white person than a black person by a cop in the US. Hence BLM is a load of shit.

Also, citing that it's the cops for why more blacks get put in jail is a cop out rather than admitting they actually commit more crimes.

I just googled this and nearly every source admits that more blacks are killed than whites per million (per million being a proportional statistic). Can you actually give a source?

The whole 'why do they commit more crimes?' topic is a whole other can of worms. Factors that routinely get ignored are whether or not they are disproportionately targeted for enforcement, whether or not the view that they're more likely to be criminal feeds the previous factor, and the extent to which socioeconomics pushes them towards crime. Things that should be addressed instead of vigorously ignored.

**Nobleshield** · 2016-03-21, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by Styxz

I think your professor misled you a bit man. The vast majority of slaves were treated worse than shit. Paying them wouldn't change that. Look up the story of James Marion Sims, the guy who invented the speculum. Look at what that guy was doing to newborns man.

There was some crazy stuff going on during that time. Fooling ourselves to think there was some kind of balance or some undercurrent of serendipity is... foolish. Naive at best.

Not unlikely, my American History professor talked like a communist a lot, like he would go out of his way to point out that George Washington was a terrible general who got his ass kicked in the French-Indian War and that losing Benedict Arnold was a great blow because he was the best commander the Continental Army had (likely the truth) and that Lincoln had to sneak off a train disguised as a woman for his inauguration because there was a horde of people waiting to kill him if they got to him first (sounds like BS honestly). He never seemed to miss a chance to point out flaws.

**Skalm** · 2016-03-21, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by Garnier Fructis

I just googled this and nearly every source admits that more blacks are killed than whites per million (per million being a proportional statistic). Can you actually give a source?

The whole 'why do they commit more crimes?' topic is a whole other can of worms. Factors that routinely get ignored are whether or not they are disproportionately targeted for enforcement, whether or not the view that they're more likely to be criminal feeds the previous factor, and the extent to which socioeconomics pushes them towards crime. Things that should be addressed instead of vigorously ignored.

That's funny, because I googled and everything I found said a higher percentage of whites were killed by LEO's than blacks...

Have to love SEO, It is great that you can manipulate your question to obtain the data you want...while disregarding anything you do not want to see, and then claim what you find is the 'Real Facts'.

**Breccia** · 2016-03-21, 08:11 PM