[Mage] Legion: General Information and Discussion

[huth]

Still have no idea why there needs to be a penalty for swapping specs. For years they've been slowly crumbling on their original stance and allowing spec swapping for less effort/investment. At this point I guess its just supposed to be a gold sink or something?

Going back to that original stance pretty much is the point here.

[Erolian]

Going back to that original stance pretty much is the point here.

Then they will have failed to make their point on every level. The gold cost is beyond trivial to the point of the box asking if you want to spend that much gold being a nuisance more than anything. At some point the penalty becomes so irrelevant and inconsequential that it's pointless to even have within the game. That's where it is right now.

[Tirilka]

Ugh, what bothers me is that developers answer trivial and ultimately meaningless questions like this
https://twitter.com/holinka/status/706629222941351936

but ignore the really important ones, like more than half of talent tree being the same for all specs, or a pathetic T75, or only 2 FoF charges, or other problems.

[Deleted]

Ugh, what bothers me is that developers answer trivial and ultimately meaningless questions like this
https://twitter.com/holinka/status/706629222941351936

but ignore the really important ones, like more than half of talent tree being the same for all specs, or a pathetic T75, or only 2 FoF charges, or other problems.

More people can answer abstract Lore/Fantasy questions than really technical ones. Look at BlizzCon where most people are willing to answer those abstract questions, because they are easier to answer (and you can make things up sometimes).

But to tell you the truth I do not trust the community being that good at the technical stuff either. Most appear to see only a small portion of the class. Not only changing one spell affects the whole class, it also affects the entire game's balance!

[Obelisk Kai]

Ugh, what bothers me is that developers answer trivial and ultimately meaningless questions like this
https://twitter.com/holinka/status/706629222941351936

but ignore the really important ones, like more than half of talent tree being the same for all specs, or a pathetic T75, or only 2 FoF charges, or other problems.

If this is the major controversy roiling Mages and demanding dev attention then some Mages really have too much time on their hands. I agree entirely, we have real issues and this 'debate' is a distraction of meaningless fluff.

[Recom]

If this is the major controversy roiling Mages and demanding dev attention then some Mages really have too much time on their hands. I agree entirely, we have real issues and this 'debate' is a distraction of meaningless fluff.

Like a lot of tweet questions/answers, unfortunately. It's not like you can do a lot better with only 140 characters anyway...
Dev answers in the feedback threads are a lot more insightful and interesting.

[Obelisk Kai]

Like a lot of tweet questions/answers, unfortunately. It's not like you can do a lot better with only 140 characters anyway...
Dev answers in the feedback threads are a lot more insightful and interesting.

Of which I notice we have none.

Sometimes I think Blizzard is TOO content with our class...

[Polarthief]

Like a lot of tweet questions/answers, unfortunately. It's not like you can do a lot better with only 140 characters anyway...
Dev answers in the feedback threads are a lot more insightful and interesting.

"@WarcraftDevs Regarding Frost Mages, can we please get 4 FoF banking?" (71 characters left)
"@Polarthief We realize that there is too much FoF munching and FoF will stack up to 4 in the next build." (36 characters left)

Just gotta know how to ask/answer questions. Twitter's not too hard for this kind of stuff.

"@WarcraftDevs Could we get some insight on the L75 Mage talents? Why is there no choice there for PvE?" (38 characters left)
"@WarcraftDevs Can Cauterizing Blink please be changed? Having a heal tied to Blink is not a good design choice." (29 characters left)
"@WarcraftDevs Are Thermal Void and OP really going unchanged? Both are very lackluster and poor choices compared to other L100 talents." (5 characters left)

[Obelisk Kai]

"@WarcraftDevs Regarding Frost Mages, can we please get 4 FoF banking?" (71 characters left)
"@Polarthief We realize that there is too much FoF munching and FoF will stack up to 4 in the next build." (36 characters left)

Just gotta know how to ask/answer questions. Twitter's not too hard for this kind of stuff.

"@WarcraftDevs Could we get some insight on the L75 Mage talents? Why is there no choice there for PvE?" (38 characters left)
"@WarcraftDevs Can Cauterizing Blink please be changed? Having a heal tied to Blink is not a good design choice." (29 characters left)
"@WarcraftDevs Are Thermal Void and OP really going unchanged? Both are very lackluster and poor choices compared to other L100 talents." (5 characters left)

You know that's a summary of my current problems with the Mage class right now. At least the problems that MIGHT be solved.

I'm still flabbergasted that the level 75 tier has remained essentially unchanged for months. The tier plainly does not make any sense and is essentially a dumping ground for the talents they didn't want to cut but can't meld into a satisfying theme.

And Cauterizing Blink just keeps being not removed...

I actually made peace with the fact that these problems aren't getting fixed. At this point I guess...Mages are fine.

[Polarthief]

I actually made peace with the fact that these problems aren't getting fixed. At this point I guess...Mages are fine.

Congrats. You just reached the level of mediocrity that the devs have been okay with regarding Mages for the last few expansions

[Rothex]

When you say Thermal Void and OP are lackluster and poor choices, can you elaborate a bit? I'm wondering if you meant they were simply weak numbers-wise in comparison to their competition or that you personally find them boring. Similarly, why did you not mention Kindling and how is that different?

I haven't seen really anyone complain about them in recent Alpha threads, albeit I've barely read the Arcane thread and only skim the Frost one.

I personally don't mind the level 100 talent passives tbh. Sometimes I just cbf adding another spell into my rotation or think that the other options don't provide an interesting interaction with the spec/s; looking at you Comet Storm, Cinderstorm, Meteor, PC (yes it's going but it still exists now). Tbh, I'm more concerned about tier 75 and a couple earlier talents than anything on the 100 lines.

[Recom]

"@WarcraftDevs Regarding Frost Mages, can we please get 4 FoF banking?" (71 characters left)
"@Polarthief We realize that there is too much FoF munching and FoF will stack up to 4 in the next build." (36 characters left)

Just gotta know how to ask/answer questions. Twitter's not too hard for this kind of stuff.

"@WarcraftDevs Could we get some insight on the L75 Mage talents? Why is there no choice there for PvE?" (38 characters left)
"@WarcraftDevs Can Cauterizing Blink please be changed? Having a heal tied to Blink is not a good design choice." (29 characters left)
"@WarcraftDevs Are Thermal Void and OP really going unchanged? Both are very lackluster and poor choices compared to other L100 talents." (5 characters left)

Yeah because as we've seen in the past, it's that kind of question that get an answer. Sure they could but they won't, too risky, they need to explain themselves with a lot more words (i.e. the last SP thread) otherwise people will just understand whatever they want to understand...

[gallamann]

TV is probably tied to no Waterjet in Legion, and your Artifact via critical frost bolts reduces cool down on IV.

Mages share 3 talent tiers (only class in the game, monk is 2, rest are 1), 75 is the perfect one for Blizzard to make unique per spec.

[Polarthief]

When you say Thermal Void and OP are lackluster and poor choices, can you elaborate a bit? I'm wondering if you meant they were simply weak numbers-wise in comparison to their competition or that you personally find them boring. Similarly, why did you not mention Kindling and how is that different?

OP is not only UP (ironic as fuck), but it's just boring. It also can't really be balanced without being broken. TV is in the same boat (remember IL spamming in WoD beta?) to a slightly less degree, but now that CmS doesn't split and Gorgeous Spike exists, we actually have legitimate choices.

Combustion doesn't get extended from Kindling, it allows you to cast it sooner/more per fight. If they changed OP/TV to lower the remaining cooldown on AP/IV, it'd be a much stronger choice.

I haven't seen really anyone complain about them in recent Alpha threads, albeit I've barely read the Arcane thread and only skim the Frost one.

New issues over overshadow older ones that the devs didn't bother to fix. RoP is still a huge problem (more in tuning than mechanical though), but there are more pressing matters atm.

I personally don't mind the level 100 talent passives tbh. Sometimes I just cbf adding another spell into my rotation or think that the other options don't provide an interesting interaction with the spec/s; looking at you Comet Storm, Cinderstorm, Meteor, PC (yes it's going but it still exists now). Tbh, I'm more concerned about tier 75 and a couple earlier talents than anything on the 100 lines.

Again, I do like Kindling. If they changed TV/OP to function like Kindling, they'd be more fun choices methinks. Needing RNG during your cooldown is already stressful enough. An extra layer is now that the cooldown ability gets extended. Not as good as simply allowing you to cast it sooner, though it does make cooldown stacking worse/harder.

Yeah because as we've seen in the past, it's that kind of question that get an answer. Sure they could but they won't, too risky, they need to explain themselves with a lot more words (i.e. the last SP thread) otherwise people will just understand whatever they want to understand...

I mean, idk. They answered GI's concerns earlier than the build coming out.

[Rothex]

I'll be honest, I don't actually see how OP and TV are more boring than Kindling. They technically should be more interesting because you can watch yourself extend your cd and get more outta it. Kindling literally doesn't involve doing anything except playing the spec how it's meant to be played and 'oh I can Combust a tiny bit sooner'. (I actually love Kindling, I swear :P). In the end though, they're all passives. There's not a whole lot you can do with passives to make them super interesting, so I'm not surprised that some people find them boring.

Now with Glacial Spike being cool/new and changing up the play style, and Comet Storm no longer splitting so it's more useful, I can definitely see why TV takes a big hit on the boring side. As for Arcane, I can't really comment on how interesting the 100 talents are because I inherently find Arcane to be boring as a whole, but there's nothing there that sticks out like GS and says "choose me, I provide a new/fun way to play".

As for your suggestion, I'm not sure that changing OP/TV to match the same effect as Kindling would be a good idea. It would just be effectively the same talent for all 3 specs. We should be asking for more talent diversity, not less, given that Mages have the most universal talent line tree of every class. At least the current iterations are trying to make the effects work slightly differently, even though they might not be as balanced/good as they need to be. I'm sure they'll tune the numbers better when the time comes; we'd all rather they focus on more important things than that now.

[Polarthief]

I'll be honest, I don't actually see how OP and TV are more boring than Kindling. They technically should be more interesting because you can watch yourself extend your cd and get more outta it. Kindling literally doesn't involve doing anything except playing the spec how it's meant to be played and 'oh I can Combust a tiny bit sooner'. (I actually love Kindling, I swear :P). In the end though, they're all passives. There's not a whole lot you can do with passives to make them super interesting, so I'm not surprised that some people find them boring.

Casting a cooldown more often is more fun than getting fucked on RNG and getting little to no benefit out of a talent. Kindling is always useful (unless you hold onto Combustion for awhile). OP and TV, not nearly as much if you don't get the procs, which can happen.

OP is even weaker now that its duration is even shorter and you're less likely to get those AM procs since there's 0 ways to force an AM proc. TV is also weaker since IV is back to Haste only (no glyph to modify it to be 40% damage x3 hits) and doesn't buff the bonus 40% damage trait at all.

Now with Glacial Spike being cool/new and changing up the play style, and Comet Storm no longer splitting so it's more useful, I can definitely see why TV takes a big hit on the boring side. As for Arcane, I can't really comment on how interesting the 100 talents are because I inherently find Arcane to be boring as a whole, but there's nothing there that sticks out like GS and says "choose me, I provide a new/fun way to play".

I mean, it depends on how strong OP is in terms of raw DPS increase, but AO is a fun ability to just have. Not always 100% useful, but it can be great in quite a few situations. Quickening, I won't comment on. I find it retarded too.

As for your suggestion, I'm not sure that changing OP/TV to match the same effect as Kindling would be a good idea. It would just be effectively the same talent for all 3 specs. We should be asking for more talent diversity, not less, given that Mages have the most universal talent line tree of every class. At least the current iterations are trying to make the effects work slightly differently, even though they might not be as balanced/good as they need to be. I'm sure they'll tune the numbers better when the time comes; we'd all rather they focus on more important things than that now.

While I agree we need more diversity, OP and TV should be changed in some way from what they are now. Making it like Kindling would make it better than it is now at the very least.

[Rothex]

I do agree that OP can be royally fucked over by RNG. I actually didn't know that AP had its duration reduced, serves me right for just blatantly ignoring every Arcane change that comes up in the patch notes lol. Well yes, in that case, OP is in an even worse position now balance-wise. Not to mention what you already said that AM simply can't be forced.

As for TV, haven't you all just been discussing in the Frost thread that Frost is getting FoF capped all the time at this current time in the Alpha? If the FoF generation is so high, as well as the ability to proc FoF at will with Frozen Orb, Water Jet, Frozen Touch/Bitter Cold, and Ebonbolt, not to mention It's Cold Outside potentially proccing while you're Ice Lancing away, then TV might not be as bad as claimed? Everyone seems very hooked up on Glacial Spike, and I don't blame them cause it's new, super cool, and interesting, and as a result TV is being pushed aside as useless when it might not be as expected. (Again, haven't read the Frost thread in detail so not sure how the numbers are going atm).

You could always just ask Blizz to change TV to instead increase the FoF cap to 4 :P

[Frost1129]

Water Jet is gone.

[Polarthief]

But that doesn't make OP/TV fun or all that interesting and they'll still be inherently weaker (again with IV only giving Haste which means IV+Lust = oh boy what's the point) than their counterparts, or too strong if you buff them by an extra second.

You could always just ask Blizz to change TV to instead increase the FoF cap to 4 :P

Which will help FoF-munching how exactly?

[Rothex]

If FoF munching is so high then they should just nerf its proc rate. Maybe make FoF do more damage to compensate for less procs. I'm sure people would rather have FoF Ice Lances that are more meaningful and damaging rather than being flooded with endless weak ones just spamming instants all day long. It sounds like what a few people have said about Fire where there's just so many Pyros/Hot Streaks that it doesn't feel meaningful anymore.

I do see where you're coming from with TV and haste issues. Eventually they're going to run into that same problem again like in MoP (it was MoP, right?). They'll have to bring back that glyph or at least do something about it.