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  1. #201
    I don't miss it. Don't see a good enough reason to put it back in.
    Game is different now, It wouldn't work at all.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Dadukester View Post
    I know a lot of people complained about the Vanilla system being too complex, even though it gave us a TON of different combos and diversity.
    It was not complex, while leveling, yeah, you could do whatever you liked.. didn't matter

    When you started raiding? You had one correct build.. you didn't deviate from it, and if you didn't have it, you got refused by guilds.

    Todays system, we get to change between different talents, depending on the fights. And Come legion, (I am hoping), that there will be even more changing between fights.
    "Everything always changes. The best plan lasts until the first arrow leaves the bow." - Matrim Cauthon

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Dadukester View Post
    Just wanting to hear opinions, I personally think the current Talent System is over simplified and gives us much less diverse characters, but I know a lot of people complained about the Vanilla system being too complex, even though it gave us a TON of different combos and diversity.

    I'm trying to make a basic MMO, and am planning on a talent system similar to Vanilla's where you get points each level up to spend wherever you want on the different trees (with tiers that unlock)

    What do you guys prefer now? Current, vanillas, or a different rendition?
    I found the talent interface from classic WoW to be more aesthetically pleasing. Some dislike that some of the options on the tree were very straightforward and unexciting to them. That never bothered me, because it still left a visible bit of growth which I had some control over. More than that, it left the possibility of choosing options which might be less than ideal for your intended use. Why is that a good thing? It's good, because it gives something minor to experiment with, think about, and even discuss with friends or peers. Also where there's a chance to "fail" there's a chance to "succeed" and feel good about it when you do things "correctly." Granted with regard to the talents as they were, they were fairly small scale differences most of the time, but I'd argue that's what made it great.

    There should be different degrees and types of game play right down to character planning. The talent trees as they are in WoD are a fast food style of talents for the impatient who just want to rush right to "the good stuff" without actually getting involved with their character. When you had your talents set up like you wanted them, your character felt just that fraction more customized or lived in. Some choose to argue that such feelings were but an illusion. My counter is that even if they were, does that mean the pleasant feelings they brought shouldn't have been felt?

    Not every aspect of the game needs to be a jaw-dropping event or something to overwhelm the senses. Some of us liked looking over the talent panes and considering the interactions of the trees. I liked how sometimes interesting builds would come about. I remember an old rogue setup that mixed Subtlety and Assassination but ignored the last couple of tiers of each in favor of grabbing many pvp utility talents instead. Unfortunately Blizzard freaked out over stuff like that and decided that getting the last talent in a tree or at least spending a certain number of points should be mandatory. And then they just slid right down that slippery slope to what we have now. I get that it was challenging to balance, but it's disappointing that they just had to give up and left us with what we have now.

    Imagine the first person who noticed that taking only 1 of the 2 points to reduce Judgement's cooldown for Paladins would give put it at 9 seconds and let it fit in a nicely aligned rotation based on number of globals. He or she probably felt at least somewhat accomplished, and I know ones like me found it rather smooth to add in to builds. And more than that it gave people one more thing to discuss even if only in passing.

    Another thing I liked about the original system was its visibility. It was in plain view and could be understood. Now Blizzard's taken to playing Wizard of Oz and hiding everything behind a curtain in your spell book. There are dozens of passives that I know my Death Knight has, but the only reason I know they exist is that I've played for a decade and had the time to learn of them and what they do. Now-a-days if I'm trying to teach someone new about a nuance of the class, I sometimes run into places where they have to take my word for it. It feels more concrete when everything can be found within the UI.
    Last edited by slade1135; 2016-03-22 at 06:11 PM.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Akaihiryuu View Post
    Because going to a website and copying down your spec, and then applying the points the way it said was so interesting and complex right? Oh, and if you didn't do that you weren't doing any high end content. The old system gave you between 1 and 3 points leftover to choose what you wanted to do with. You definitely have more than 1-3 choices now.
    You only did that if you were a min/maxer or took yourself too seriously. There were multiple builds outside of raiding, especially for leveling.
    And no lol we have no more options now. It's just as min/max as ever and ALWAYS WILL BE because this game is made of numbers and RNG, not real life skill where anything can happen. There will never not be a cookie cutter for specific situations. Switching between the same 1-3 abilities between fights is hardly interesting choice.


    It's hardly debatable tbh, considering WE DONT HAVE TALENTS anymore. We have 2-3 ability choices and that's it. Glyphs are closer to talents than actual talents.

    Only reason they fooled everyone into this system is because they didn't want the work of balancing actual talent trees. What would be the optimal system is to hve ability choices like we have now along with talent trees with smaller effects and % changes.
    Last edited by Dormie; 2016-03-22 at 07:02 PM.

  5. #205
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reffan View Post
    Vanilla system was never complex. All you had to do, is to take correct talents from cookie cutter build or else you had terribly build character. In the end, it was shit, I much prefer what we have now as it gives us some degree of choice.

    Yeah... that +2% damage done from Curse of Agony was really inspiring and fun. Or something.
    What +2% Curse of Agony are you talking about? You were either curse of weakness bitch, or curse of elements bitch - pray to gods that your class leader haven't seen points in improved agony or you casting agony in raid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  6. #206
    I think the hate for the old talent system comes from having only 1-2 talents that changed your gameplay. Most talents were passive.

    Look at what we have now though a bunch of broken active talents that are either too strong or too weak.

  7. #207
    Mechagnome Mitak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mascarpwn View Post
    I don't fully agree. Some fights still require you to change talents on the fly, right? Soul Link, or Dark Bargain? Unbound Will, or burning rush? Minion or no minion? Charred Remains, or Cataclysm? Choices may vary a lot on fight dynamics. This was never the case with Vanilla talents. Unlike in Vanilla, there is no real cookie-cutter spec now, which imo is a good thing.
    Yes you are right and that is what blizzard thinks as well, that is why fights are varied.

    However this also shows why i prefer the old system. The new system allows for better game mechanics but ruins the class immersion. You can change talents on the fly, tweak and adjust for every fight using different cookie cutter talent build, which is great mechanics wise but you loose immersion of your specific spec you are playing.
    If you can have haunt in one fight and then drain soul in the next fight or grimoire of service and then grimoire of sacrifice , 5 minutes apart then what is your class fantasy, what kind of warlock are you, omnipotent one? By this reasoning Blizz can just give us all possible talents all of the time, since your talent choices don't seem to matter that much when you are able to change them from fight to fight, couple of minutes apart.
    The old talent system at least locked you into being a specific class, you were the 50/50 warlock in your guild and everyone knew you like that, they knew you were amazing at that spec since you stuck with it for long time and have perfected it to max. That also played into the RP element of your spec, you felt connected to your warlock as it did not change from day to day or fight to fight.
    I understand that the new talent system gives us more possibilities (changing from DPS to tank mid raid) which makes our lives much, much easier, but then again for me the RP loss is greater than the convenience it presents as WoW attracted me because of its rich universe and immersion, not because of its game mechanics.
    The truth may be out there, but the lies are inside your head.

  8. #208
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Mitak View Post
    Yes you are right and that is what blizzard thinks as well, that is why fights are varied.

    However this also shows why i prefer the old system. The new system allows for better game mechanics but ruins the class immersion. You can change talents on the fly, tweak and adjust for every fight using different cookie cutter talent build, which is great mechanics wise but you loose immersion of your specific spec you are playing.
    If you can have haunt in one fight and then drain soul in the next fight or grimoire of service and then grimoire of sacrifice , 5 minutes apart then what is your class fantasy, what kind of warlock are you, omnipotent one? By this reasoning Blizz can just give us all possible talents all of the time, since your talent choices don't seem to matter that much when you are able to change them from fight to fight, couple of minutes apart.
    The old talent system at least locked you into being a specific class, you were the 50/50 warlock in your guild and everyone knew you like that, they knew you were amazing at that spec since you stuck with it for long time and have perfected it to max. That also played into the RP element of your spec, you felt connected to your warlock as it did not change from day to day or fight to fight.
    I understand that the new talent system gives us more possibilities (changing from DPS to tank mid raid) which makes our lives much, much easier, but then again for me the RP loss is greater than the convenience it presents as WoW attracted me because of its rich universe and immersion, not because of its game mechanics.
    I see your point. Immersion, however, is subjective.

    Changing talents on the fly, doesn't turn you into a destruction warlock if you're playing affliction though. Of course, you could change specs on the fly, but is this even viable? When I raided, we geared our toons specifically towards our main spec. My Arcane focused gear, just didn't work well for fire and therefore changing specs on the fly, was counter productive (until I had off-set items, of course).

  9. #209
    Worth mentioning changing talents on the fly is the crux of the 'cookie cutter' issue. If you had to go to a trainer and spend 50 gold (or more like 1000 gold by inflation) a majority would run the current talents as cookie cutter, too. This isn't related to the talent trees themselves, as in vanilla-wrath and to a lesser extent cataclysm there were better options for different fights.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  10. #210
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    This isn't true, and the only reason switching was uncommon was you couldn't do it on the fly. Different builds were better for different goals.
    There were certain bosses in AQ and Naxx we would hearth out and respec for. The only difference nowadays is you just change your final tier talent and possibly a few more before you pull the boss. Either way, we were switching back and forth between 1-2 fully set in stone builds. Again, it didn't add diversity in the slightest, if you wanted to be optimal, (which 95% of players do) you would need to be a very specific build.

  11. #211
    I loved old talet system much much more.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by nmityosaurus View Post
    There were certain bosses in AQ and Naxx we would hearth out and respec for. The only difference nowadays is you just change your final tier talent and possibly a few more before you pull the boss. Either way, we were switching back and forth between 1-2 fully set in stone builds. Again, it didn't add diversity in the slightest, if you wanted to be optimal, (which 95% of players do) you would need to be a very specific build.
    You mean like now then
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  13. #213
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    You mean like now then
    Exactly like now.

  14. #214
    Why not both? Have the current talent tree for main abilities and then a secondary talent tree for modifying abilities/your character.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by nmityosaurus View Post
    Exactly like now.
    So you agree we change talents now

    And it's exactly the same as before

    But before was cookie cutter and now we have choice?
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  16. #216
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    So you agree we change talents now

    And it's exactly the same as before

    But before was cookie cutter and now we have choice?
    Yes, it's essentially the same now. It doesn't really change in games with multiple choices, generally there's going to be a optimal setup that dominates the rest, which people will funnel into. The old system is now exception to that rule and either is the current one.

    People arguing it's "more complex" are wrong, it's an illusion. You don't have as much control as they would like to imagine as you're being force-fed the better specs if you want your character to be at its maximum potential.

    They scrapped the old system because of the needless button clicks which were more or less pointless. Like for example, hitting 1% on your crit talent 5 times, followed by 5 clicks to your 5% fireblast critical talent five times. Fun and interactive right? All they have done with the new system is added all of those stats into passive build skills and give you the option of 3 talents that have a bigger impact than speccing into 5% crit.

    They do the same thing, this system just saves the pointless clicking of the skills you're going to pick regardless of the other "options". Also the talents setup the way they are work really well in terms of PvP to PvE, your character actually remains unique in terms of various abilities. Sure you're going to pick the same stuff for top end pvp/pve, but through 5 mans and lower raids etc you get to play with the other impact-full skills.

  17. #217
    The illusion of choice is one of the main points behind game design, so to write it off shows a lack of understanding. Making your players believe they have control is important - whether they actually do is semantics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  18. #218
    Legendary! Airwaves's Avatar
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    Todays model gives more choice then ever. The old trees you when with the perfect set up or you were shit. That was it.
    Aye mate

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrno View Post
    There were def options. 99% of the people were just to lazy to bother with respeccing. If we would've been able to switch talents like we do now it would've been sooooooo much better. Paying 50g sucked
    http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#h

    let's take shaman for example since i played it back then.

    47 talents overall to put points in.
    4 talents that wasnt passive.
    most of the other talents either did something useless (beacuse blockchance as enhanc is good right, or resistance is such fun gameplay to put talents in)
    Face it. The ONLY useful talents in classic were the lvl 40 and the last tier point. everything else could of been passives from the start since you'd either put points in them with the cookiebuild, or you didnt(which proves the talent was complete shit eitherway)

    Classic was an entirly different game, a shitty one, with shitty options (enjoy putting 5 points worth of lvling into threatreduction)
    so no. there was 0 options.
    But feel free to live in your imaginary land.
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    People on this site hate everything. Keep that in mind.

  20. #220
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunnydee View Post
    http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#h

    let's take shaman for example since i played it back then.

    47 talents overall to put points in.
    4 talents that wasnt passive.
    most of the other talents either did something useless (beacuse blockchance as enhanc is good right, or resistance is such fun gameplay to put talents in)
    Face it. The ONLY useful talents in classic were the lvl 40 and the last tier point. everything else could of been passives from the start since you'd either put points in them with the cookiebuild, or you didnt(which proves the talent was complete shit eitherway)

    Classic was an entirly different game, a shitty one, with shitty options (enjoy putting 5 points worth of lvling into threatreduction)
    so no. there was 0 options.
    But feel free to live in your imaginary land.
    This. /10char

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