Keep LFR out of Legion!

[Nubulous]

I think LFR should stay, but not in the WoD form....The Cata/MoP implementation was way better in my opinion.

Not going to happen...if you are talking about difficulty it will stay how it is

[vicious796]

Elitist bitchy attitude? People in here have said that they don't want to do anything past LFR. How does that not make them lazy? Lol.
Anyway, whatever.

And plenty of others have stated that they simply have time restrictions and responsibilities that don't allow them more than a couple of hours a night, at best, and LFR is a great means of letting them get as much content in as possible in a small window of time - you're not stuck in a raid group, unable to complete dailies or other quests for Loremaster, for example. All of your points are and have been 1000% valid and the throw in of "lazies" and how they'll "complain" just take away from it. It paints a clear picture of elitism and comes across as bitchy - at least that's how I read it. We all know how well text translates intent, though.

[Deleted]

You mean hardmodes and heroic?

Mythic wasn't here until late MoP, and honestly I think the subs started dipping near the end of the xpack.

Really you could just say mythic has almost killed the game, I mean since it was introduced the game has lost mass amounts of subs.

It's the same mode renamed champ.

[kary]

And plenty of others have stated that they simply have time restrictions and responsibilities that don't allow them more than a couple of hours a night, at best, and LFR is a great means of letting them get as much content in as possible in a small window of time - you're not stuck in a raid group, unable to complete dailies or other quests for Loremaster, for example. All of your points are and have been 1000% valid and the throw in of "lazies" and how they'll "complain" just take away from it. It paints a clear picture of elitism and comes across as bitchy - at least that's how I read it. We all know how well text translates intent, though.

LFR takes more time than a normal group to kill the same bosses, but whatever.

Those arguments always boil down to "I don't want to properly gear so I'll take the queue where people can't deny me entry" or something like that. Yes it's all anecdotal experience, but I've joined groups on my prot paladin at 680 or so itemlevel. ymmv ofc.

[khalltusk]

It's the same mode renamed champ.

Champ? Ah youre the same guy who asked me about LOL/TF2 and called me champ and when I replied you never replied to it. Did you ever get a chance to read through?

[vicious796]

LFR takes more time than a normal group to kill the same bosses, but whatever.

Those arguments always boil down to "I don't want to properly gear so I'll take the queue where people can't deny me entry" or something like that. Yes it's all anecdotal experience, but I've joined groups on my prot paladin at 680 or so itemlevel. ymmv ofc.

I don't disagree on the time - but how many groups right now are doing just ONE wing? Moreover, how often are you not sitting in a raid group and unable to do OTHER content? Can't get credit for killing those mobs while in a raid group - sitting in the queue, though? You bet you can. While I'm sure you and I have both gotten "lucky" and scored a minimal wait, I've also waited 30, 40 minutes where I was unable to do ANYTHING else because it was a slow night - that's especially true now, late into the content gap.

I'm not saying that "lazies" don't exist and that they don't benefit from the LFR, but I'd argue that they're the minority. I'd say that most of the LFR community consists of people that either aren't interested in general raiding at all, people that genuinely don't have the time for real, structured raiding, or new players that are dipping their toes in. Then again, as has been the case, I completely agree with you that it's all anecdotal and my experiences are obviously different than yours.

[Deleted]

Champ? Ah youre the same guy who asked me about LOL/TF2 and called me champ and when I replied you never replied to it. Did you ever get a chance to read through?

Well I don't play TF2 so that wouldn't be me.

[Deleted]

HAHA sad little elitist, 2485 voters out of 5 million players and still the majority want's to keep LFR HAHA
You are so sad to cry about a part of the game who is played by a lot more people then mythic, so mythic is a big waste of resources.
Get rid of mythic FFS!!!

[Osmeric]

Kinda of why claiming it makes money isn't a argument I am not interested in proving a negative to try and support your claims.

I'd like you to explain why you think making money isn't the primary goal of a for-profit corporation. Explain how the alternative goal is consistent with the fiduciary responsibility the management of the corporation has to its shareholders.

- - - Updated - - -

Though one can argue *my pet peeve is slowly killing the game, therefore losing them long term money in favor of short term money*. Those arguments never hold much weight with people though, cause its impossible to prove.

I'd argue that blizzards focus and what made them successful in the past was that the ultimate purpose was *not* money, it was the integrity of the games they made. And that when money came into the picture is when their games started to lose a lot of quality. They're still good, but they're not what they were.

There are plenty of game developers who stuck to visions and failed. What made Blizzard succeed was not integrity, it was that their vision happened to have been of something that would succeed commercially.

[Deleted]

And plenty of others have stated that they simply have time restrictions and responsibilities that don't allow them more than a couple of hours a night, at best, and LFR is a great means of letting them get as much content in as possible in a small window of time - you're not stuck in a raid group, unable to complete dailies or other quests for Loremaster, for example. All of your points are and have been 1000% valid and the throw in of "lazies" and how they'll "complain" just take away from it. It paints a clear picture of elitism and comes across as bitchy - at least that's how I read it. We all know how well text translates intent, though.

Yet they somehow have time for LFR what is more time consuming then current normal.

[Deleted]

I'd like you to explain why you think making money isn't the primary goal of a for-profit corporation. Explain how the alternative goal is consistent with the fiduciary responsibility the management of the corporation has to its shareholders.

Having a goal is different from accomplishing a goal. You seem to confuse the two. In order for your argument to make sense you have to prove lfr brings in cash. Nothing shows that to be the case. Hell even as flimsy of a argument as sub numbers goes against you..

You keep trying to shift this to a philosophical argument when you start losing stop doing that.

[khalltusk]

Well I don't play TF2 so that wouldn't be me.

Ah apologies it was primal matter. He got banned so no wonder why he did not reply. You two just used a similar snarky "champ" at the end of your sentences so I thought for a moment it might be the same person.

[kary]

I don't disagree on the time - but how many groups right now are doing just ONE wing? Moreover, how often are you not sitting in a raid group and unable to do OTHER content? Can't get credit for killing those mobs while in a raid group - sitting in the queue, though? You bet you can. While I'm sure you and I have both gotten "lucky" and scored a minimal wait, I've also waited 30, 40 minutes where I was unable to do ANYTHING else because it was a slow night - that's especially true now, late into the content gap.

I'm not saying that "lazies" don't exist and that they don't benefit from the LFR, but I'd argue that they're the minority. I'd say that most of the LFR community consists of people that either aren't interested in general raiding at all, people that genuinely don't have the time for real, structured raiding, or new players that are dipping their toes in. Then again, as has been the case, I completely agree with you that it's all anecdotal and my experiences are obviously different than yours.

dem shifting goalposts.

[Osmeric]

Having a goal is different from accomplishing a goal. You seem to confuse the two. In order for your argument to make sense you have to prove lfr brings in cash. Nothing shows that to be the case. Hell even as flimsy of a argument as sub numbers goes against you..

You keep trying to shift this to a philosophical argument when you start losing stop doing that.

Of course there are intermediate goals below "making money". Various game design goals are of this kind. No one is disputing that.

What I am pointing out is that, in the end, the money goal is superior to these other goals. The other goals exist only insofar as they ultimately serve the goal of making money. And what THAT means is that you can't just say "an MMO is like X, deal with it" and expect that sort of argument to trump "an MMO is for making money". If a game design idea is tried and fails to advance the $$$ goal, it will likely get shitcanned.

It's a valid argument that LFR hasn't advanced the $$$ goal. However, there's a substantial audience that was supposed to be served by LFR, and is not served by higher raid modes. If LFR is failing to serve them, it indicts not only LFR, but raids as a whole.

[Tuesdays]

It's the same mode renamed champ.

Normal is the original hard mode, and that is how it should have stayed. Difficulty is subjective, but it really makes players stand out when you start segregating them. Bad players are bad, but now bad players are now based solely on what difficulty they enjoy.

Players have gotten so toxic, recruitment is a joke, guilds are nothing more than perks, no sense of community because everyone is just a stepping stone to the next difficulty, and holy shit repetitive as fuck.

I honestly think Normal mode with optional hard-mode encounters would have been the best route for Blizzard continue on. On one hand you have a difficult raid setting, a huge selection to recruit from, finding a guild and scheduling isn't as impossible, actually being able to play with friends and family, and less ilv disparity.

[Jaylock]

Is it elitist to want LFR removed from the game?

Because thats exactly what I want done.

[kary]

Normal is the original hard mode, and that is how it should have stayed. Difficulty is subjective, but it really makes players stand out when you start segregating them. Bad players are bad, but now bad players are now based solely on what difficulty they enjoy.

Players have gotten so toxic, recruitment is a joke, guilds are nothing more than perks, no sense of community because everyone is just a stepping stone to the next difficulty, and holy shit repetitive as fuck.

I honestly think Normal mode with optional hard-mode encounters would have been the best route for Blizzard continue on. On one hand you have a difficult raid setting, a huge selection to recruit from, finding a guild and scheduling isn't as impossible, actually being able to play with friends and family, and less ilv disparity.

So in other words, pander to the people who are mediocre, instead of making options for people who want more. Gotcha.
Uld hardmodes were fun in concept and awful in execution, fwiw.

[Tuesdays]

Yet they somehow have time for LFR what is more time consuming then current normal.

Because guilds don't mind if you quit after 1 or 2 bosses right?

"Yeah I can go, but we have to go now, and I only have 20 minutes"

That's exactly how raiding doesn't work.

[kary]

Because guilds don't mind if you quit after 1 or 2 bosses right?

"Yeah I can go, but we have to go now, and I only have 20 minutes"

That's exactly how raiding doesn't work.

Pugs don't exist?
I dunno. Our raids are scheduled 10-12:30 my time, never go past 12 and people often join for 2 bosses and log for the night. To each his own.
Also, pugs.

[Deleted]

Of course there are intermediate goals below "making money". Various game design goals are of this kind. No one is disputing that.

What I am pointing out is that, in the end, the money goal is superior to these other goals. The other goals exist only insofar as they ultimately serve the goal of making money. And what THAT means is that you can't just say "an MMO is like X, deal with it" and expect that sort of argument to trump "an MMO is for making money". If a game design idea is tried and fails to advance the $$$ goal, it will likely get shitcanned.

It's a valid argument that LFR hasn't advanced the $$$ goal. However, there's a substantial audience that was supposed to be served by LFR, and is not served by higher raid modes. If LFR is failing to serve them, it indicts not only LFR, but raids as a whole.

I think that is the danger of game design by accountant.

Oddly enough I am not a believer in items being removed from the game at any point. I believe prestige should be time locked. They saw that everyone wanted to be a raider without looking at why they wanted to be one. In the process they demolished the end game that existed before lfr.

- - - Updated - - -

Normal is the original hard mode, and that is how it should have stayed. Difficulty is subjective, but it really makes players stand out when you start segregating them. Bad players are bad, but now bad players are now based solely on what difficulty they enjoy.

Players have gotten so toxic, recruitment is a joke, guilds are nothing more than perks, no sense of community because everyone is just a stepping stone to the next difficulty, and holy shit repetitive as fuck.

I honestly think Normal mode with optional hard-mode encounters would have been the best route for Blizzard continue on. On one hand you have a difficult raid setting, a huge selection to recruit from, finding a guild and scheduling isn't as impossible, actually being able to play with friends and family, and less ilv disparity.

That horse has sadly left the stable.