Vanilla Talent System

[Wolfrick]

I have a great idea that even would make it cool to level and you would enjoy each and very level.

How about they implement the Old talent trees from level 1 to 80 and then after that you get the new talent tress, this way while you level you get to enjoy something new each level and build you own talent tree.

[Aeula]

Current system is way better.

Sorry but I prefer useful abilities over some shitty 3% stamina boost at the cost of 1% spirit (First row demo tree iirc)

[Pantalaimon]

People need to also take into consideration other forms of PvE end game before saying classes only have one talent option for pve across all of the content. Look at CMs for example, while it is true there is usually an optimal talent for each spec when running them some of those 'best talents' are not the best talents for raiding. You can't just spec one certain way when raiding and assume you would still be playing optimally in CMs.

[Daedius]

I rather like how D3 handles abilities, with its rune system to alter them... and how you're limited to only so many. The current WoW talents could do little more in all honesty.

With regards to Vanilla's talent system... it gave a very pseudo sense of control in your character, but in reality everyone just ended up with cookie cutter builds. Blizz just removed the selecting process of dull passives from talents, which are learnt as you level up now, and gave you the choice of the more impactful talents. It's just a more streamlined version of cookie cutter builds, and more accessible.

I guess the most understandable criticism is that we no longer have something to look forward to every level, as in talent points. Now it's every 15 levels.

[wombinator04]

The artifact talents should bring in more variety if that's what the people clamoring for the old talent system want.

[vindicatorx]

What do you guys prefer now? Current, vanillas, or a different rendition?

Now, the Vanilla ones weren't complex and I am not sure where you got the idea that they were. The old ones gave you the false sense of having options where you could put your points into something and then not be doing your best possible DPS. Anyone who raided or seriously PVPed all had the same build and they had the same build for a reason it was the best possible build. Today's talents give you more choice than the old ones ever truly did.

[Sunnydee]

Less is more.

[Hkana]

To answer the OP's question. I like the level + point system of talent trees. Vanilla talent tree had problems, IMO it wasn't the point system that was the issue, but the quality of choice you had to put that point in. I feel Blizzard jumped the gun and moved away from the point system too fast, without re-working the choices.

Path of Exile has a pretty interesting Talent Tree....for me. A different type of game, but having that point to spend every level feels good, even better if you can feel your character getting more powerful after every 2-3 points. In a tree like this, putting a point in +base stat as a stepping stone to something better works, especially when you have 99 points to spend.

[Dormie]

I'll go ahead and throw this short video I made back in Wrath in. It's a prot/arms hybrid that was very viable in battlegrounds and it was a setup I've never seen someone do before.
I had a shield bash silence, stun, and last stand all as arms. Which back then, those kind of abilities had were more potent. I may have even had revenge stun. And yes I know I didn't exactly face any pros in the vid

[Taeldorian]

Vanilla system was never complex. All you had to do, is to take correct talents from cookie cutter build or else you had terribly build character. In the end, it was shit, I much prefer what we have now as it gives us some degree of choice.

Yeah... that +2% damage done from Curse of Agony was really inspiring and fun. Or something.

This. It's fairly obvious that the old talent system hardly had any choice. You searched up which talents were the best to take, and bam, you went with that. Just like we do now. The old talent tree also had the illusion of choice, don't forget that. The tree made it seem like you were able to expand your choice because you could pick talents from each tree (MM could pick shit from survivals tree and BMs tree), but that didn't make for any choice realistically, we still went with what was best, not with what we wanted (unless you didn't raid and didn't care for min/maxing, but if that's the case then the current talent trees are the same in terms of choice). Most things we chose were also passives, as the devs already stated.

[Lodreh]

If you could have meaningful choices then Vanilla would be interesting. The problem was you would spend 5 points in increasing the crit chance of your filler spell by 5%. Though it was nice to have it did nothing to change your rotation or feel like a power increase. Choosing the big abilities... that was exciting. I recall in TBC having a SL/SL Warlock... it was a rare exception to be viable without maxing your tree. You had to build it a certain way to have enough points to make it work. There was no freedom of choice there.

Using 3.x D&D as an example, you could use feat trees to show progression with a limited number of feats... to build any character you wanted... that makes for an interesting build. Though in this setup you lose class identity so you have to weigh freedom of choice against established archetypes. Freedom of choice will give you more rounded characters but less individual focus on roles. D&D is also somewhat balanced by economy of actions... you have one action each round... if you spend it healing you are not dealing damage... etc.

Just something to be aware of.
Kalium

PS ~ I prefer the here and now talent trees.

[Grimreaper]

There were certain bosses in AQ and Naxx we would hearth out and respec for. The only difference nowadays is you just change your final tier talent and possibly a few more before you pull the boss. Either way, we were switching back and forth between 1-2 fully set in stone builds. Again, it didn't add diversity in the slightest, if you wanted to be optimal, (which 95% of players do) you would need to be a very specific build.

And yet "the optimal spec" for certain classes was not the cookie cutter spec that 90%+ of all players used, even top players in Nihilum and Curse and such played sub-optimal specs in their progress raids. Those real optimal specs became unavailable when they removed the talent trees.

[Deleted]

Much preferred the old system. Was interesting, and added an enjoyable element to levelling up.

I am a fan of RPG like complexity as opposed to brain numbing simplicity. Leaves more scope for creative, skilled play.

- - - Updated - - -

Just to note, Blizzard is now basically bringing back talent trees, now known as artefact weapons. I am happy.

[Sodia]

?!
This almost reads like your saying people didn't "google" when Vanilla was around?

You think ?? nooo .... In 2005 MMO like WOW was new and most of the people that play the game at that time didn't think about any of this , we play the game for fun .And BTW there was maybe 3 websites that have any clue about MMO in 2005.

[Dormie]

This. It's fairly obvious that the old talent system hardly had any choice. You searched up which talents were the best to take, and bam, you went with that. Just like we do now. The old talent tree also had the illusion of choice, don't forget that. The tree made it seem like you were able to expand your choice because you could pick talents from each tree (MM could pick shit from survivals tree and BMs tree), but that didn't make for any choice realistically, we still went with what was best, not with what we wanted (unless you didn't raid and didn't care for min/maxing, but if that's the case then the current talent trees are the same in terms of choice). Most things we chose were also passives, as the devs already stated.

You're talking about higher end raiding where you have to min/max ,and you still have to do that, there is still always a best option. Just because you might change a talent between a fight doesn't mean there isn't. Most people weren't even max level for most of WoWs lifetime, which means that for most people choosing the perfect talents is irrelevant. I just showed how the old talents let you do unique things in my last post. There is none of that now. The furthest I could get my fury warrior now into a prot sort of playstyle is by going defensive stance and...stacking vers? All the current talents are just CDs or minor passives. I can't actually change the balance of where my toon sits between heal/tank/dps very much like you used to be able to.

[Taeldorian]

You're talking about higher end raiding where you have to min/max ,and you still have to do that, there is still always a best option. Just because you might change a talent between a fight doesn't mean there isn't. Most people weren't even max level for most of WoWs lifetime, which means that for most people choosing the perfect talents is irrelevant. I just showed how the old talents let you do unique things in my last post. There is none of that now. The furthest I could get my fury warrior now into a prot sort of playstyle is by going defensive stance and...stacking vers? All the current talents are just CDs or minor passives. I can't actually change the balance of where my toon sits between heal/tank/dps very much like you used to be able to.

Mm yeah I totally agree, but I think that's something else entirely. Sure, the talent trees may have played a role in that, but the main reason we were able to switch between tanking/healing (thinking back to blood/frost/unholy for dk) was because the specs were made to do those jobs, where as now Blizzard has made it so each spec has 1 role, and they can only perform well as that 1 role. My point is that specs used to be a lot more versatile, due to their design and maybe due to the larger talent trees. You could be a tank as blood or frost by picking certain talents as well as dps.

TLDR: Basically, back then specs were a lot more versatile then they are now. Blizzard made it so each spec can only perform one role, whereas back then certain specs could perform multiple roles. That isn't just the talent trees fault though, but I do see what you mean and agree with you.

[Pantalaimon]

The vanilla talent system and the less optimal, but fun, builds it offered can be best explained and compared to retail optimal play through the lens of two people fighting. You can do all of these cool spins and flips when fighting someone irl, but while you're doing that you'll just get knocked out by the other guy who punches you in the face.

[Charge me Doctor]

I'll go ahead and throw this short video I made back in Wrath in. It's a prot/arms hybrid that was very viable in battlegrounds and it was a setup I've never seen someone do before.
I had a shield bash silence, stun, and last stand all as arms. Which back then, those kind of abilities had were more potent. I may have even had revenge stun. And yes I know I didn't exactly face any pros in the vid

Bold part is one of the reasons pvp in wrath was a joke. Players like these who wanted to try out something "new" and "cool" usually ruin experience of everybody else around. And just FYI, this "prot/arms hybrid" is not something unusual, getting a stun in prot tree seriously gimps your damage output, better just bring a holy paladin with you instead.

I still get flashbacks from SP prot paladins. Yeah, cool shit bro you can murrdurr enemy rogue who has no clue that he can *gasp* ignore you completely and go for literally anybody else, aka "*my fraction* sucks at BGs we lose every time"

And literally everyone i knew who came up with these "cool new hybrid stuff" (sl/sl warlock (yes we had a warlock in our guild who claimed to be the very first warlock to be a sl/sl warlock. No, he didn't even step into arena), frost/fire mage, concussion blow warrior, sp prot paladin, shockadins, *enter any pre-nerf DK build because their talents were just a mess, you could literally throw points at random and perform better than anybody else*) got their talent builds from various pvp guilds forums.

[TurtleOSP]

Bold part is one of the reasons pvp in wrath was a joke. Players like these who wanted to try out something "new" and "cool" usually ruin experience of everybody else around. And just FYI, this "prot/arms hybrid" is not something unusual, getting a stun in prot tree seriously gimps your damage output, better just bring a holy paladin with you instead.

The damage gimp wasn't as bad as people made it out to be. Bladestorm in S8 was often used as a ghetto cleanse. Blade>cancel>charge. It sucked to lose a few of your fury talents, but it was manageable. Warriors often ran WLD where paladins weren't present and thus the idea became decently viable. It was even ran by Hoodrych at MLG.

I still get flashbacks from SP prot paladins. Yeah, cool shit bro you can murrdurr enemy rogue who has no clue that he can *gasp* ignore you completely and go for literally anybody else, aka "*my fraction* sucks at BGs we lose every time"

Prot paladin was really good in PvP. Double healer prot paladin was probably more viable than ret comps due to how squishy ret was in S8.

And literally everyone i knew who came up with these "cool new hybrid stuff" (sl/sl warlock (yes we had a warlock in our guild who claimed to be the very first warlock to be a sl/sl warlock. No, he didn't even step into arena), frost/fire mage, concussion blow warrior, sp prot paladin, shockadins, *enter any pre-nerf DK build because their talents were just a mess, you could literally throw points at random and perform better than anybody else*) got their talent builds from various pvp guilds forums.

I can't really disagree that many people got their builds from online. However, builds like these held a lot more value than todays builds. There are still staple talents and the ones that do change are only dependent on what teams you're versing. The previous talents added a lot more changes to your playstyle. Trying to mix and match meant you would lose out on those "2% damage" talents.

I think the original talent system was far from perfect and that the new tree has a lot of positives the original lacked. However, I wish there was a more happy medium between the two. Seeing talents be more of a bundle, than just a skill.
As example for the warrior 90 talents
Avatar + (Stamina increased by 5%, your rend ticks reapply hamstring)
Bloodbath + (Crits apply 20% of damage dealt as a DoT over 6 seconds, Crit chance increased by 5%)
Bladestorm + (Your whirlwind does 10% more damage, movement impairing effects last 20% shorter)

Those small number changes add flavour to talent choices and I feel that's something desperately lacking.

[Foj]

In order to make large talent trees worthwhile Blizzard would have to retune talents every couple of weeks. Whatever most people were using would have to be nerfed and whatever was unpopular would have to be buffed. Then the theorycrafters would figure out the best builds, and everyone would be using them within a few days, and the cycle would restart.

If you're willing to put up with that, sure.

The system we have now usually gives you at least two decent options per tier, sometimes three, instead of 999 builds that cause people to laugh at you and 1 that's "right."