I'm happy DH will only have 2 spec.

[Deleted]

This is really, reaaalllly not true.

Well we'll see.

[Vanyali]

Well we'll see.

It really depends which build you're talking about for what's "dull and unengaging", and if you're even doing one of the builds and not picking talents because they look cool.

[Varlak]

Mana burn IS in the game. It's a pvp talent.

Its mana break and it do nothing to someones mana. it deal damage based upon the remaining mana pool someones have.

the more mana your missing the more damage you'll take, its in no way related to the old mana burn.

[Vanyali]

Its mana break and it do nothing to someones mana. it deal damage based upon the remaining mana pool someones have.

the more mana your missing the more damage you'll take, its in no way related to the old mana burn.

see the posts above you for clarification.

[Nezia]

Actually this entire expansion is a gigantic fanservice.

Giving players the weapons they've always dreamed with.

Making big characters show up in the stage again.

Exploring places everyone's has asked for since vanila.

And finally adding demon hunters, something the game really does NOT need right now, a melee agility leather user.

And yeah, they are completely lost with havoc right now, it's crystal clear to any willing to see, the main rotation is stupid and methamorphose is just a cd where... SURPRISE, you keep doing exactly the same you would do while outside it!

Probably the best formula to make methamorphose something interesting would be make it work like the live demon warlock metha, but I don't think blizzard would admit that.

And I will tell you, if the momentum build does really become the best option at some point, so DHs are pretty much dommed for mythic raiding.

And having only 2 specs is a TERRIBLE thing, you say that since we only have 1 dps spec so blizzard will have to work hard to make that one spec work well and somehow shine... While historicaly, classes with only 1 spec for dps have been TERRIBLE for dps during 90% of the time. Having only 2 specs only shows blizzard rushed the class and has no idea what to do with it.

[demonik]

I'm ok with only having 2 specs even though I personally would've liked a 3rd semi-ranged spec that delt with using more ranged fel or chaos based abilities and spells. Although I'm glad they didn't try to throw in a spec/role that wouldn't make sense, like imagine if they tried to make a 3rd spec for them that was a healer? So it's good and bad that (again IMO) that they only did 2 specs. I doubt they'll introduce a 3rd spec for them, but I'm hoping they consider it for later expansions.

What gets me, is even though it fits lore, is that the class is exclusive to elves. Yes it fits lore perfect and some races wouldn't make sense, but I'd really like to of made a undead or gnome demon hunter.even though that race/class combo makes no sense I'd still love to play as that class/race combo

[Varlak]

While historicaly, classes with only 1 spec for dps have been TERRIBLE for dps during 90% of the time. Having only 2 specs only shows blizzard rushed the class and has no idea what to do with it.

Because they were focusing on the other 2 spec. Point me 1 class that only had his tanking spec beeing viable for 90% of the time ?

[Nezia]

Because they were focusing on the other 2 spec. Point me 1 class that only had his tanking spec beeing viable for 90% of the time ?

Cause that is a pretty good design to follow, right? "You enjoy playing retri pally? Too bad they suck, go play another class if you wanna do some real dps."

And really, what is with this argument of yours? "Hey,don't complain about your ONLY dps spec sucking, you know, you can tank... Oh you don't enjoy tanking? Too bad for ya mate.". It's almost hiralious that you think that makes any sense at all.

Also, what exactly makes you think that 2 is a magic number and Blizzard will always focus on 2 specs per class? What if havoc sucks at some point in the future and then the DHs players will get stuck with a bad spec to play? Oh I guess that will be all right as long as Blizzard focus on the other spec right?

[Raugnaut]

Because first, you all know that blizzard rarely can make more then 1 DPS spec per class to be balanced. When 1 is doing ok they just work on the other class and its normal I think. It sad but if lets say rogue, have 1 good spec and 2 gimped one. The focus shift to balance the class that as no @On par@ spec.

Fire/arcane is the exeption but I suspect it just happened that both were strong without any major fix needed (frost is just mile behind and no effort was ever made to balance it)

Second, I play MMOs for the past 16 years and I can say that more is often less.

DH will have 1 tanking spec and 1 DPS spec, So all the cool ideas from blizzard will be implented into these 2 spec. Add a second DPS one and they'll just split the goodies between both spec. And they often ran dry on ideas anyway.

DH with 1 tanking and 1 DPS spec you can expect that blizzard will work hard to make them both viable. 2 good spec seems to be what they AIM for.

When you take a look at cutting edge top DPS, yes, there ARE variations between dps. In the BiS gear, for instance, Arcane's max dps is 10% above the next max dps (240k vs 210k for fire), and more then double Survival's (240k vs 109k). However, thats the absolute BiS advantage. When you take a look at the averge lvl for raiders (Normal mode, 705 sims), you'll see that the numbers are MUCH closer, with the max being Arcane at 70k, compared to Survival at 50k, only a 20k difference.

I have said this many, many, MANY times before - Blizzard does NOT balance around the top possible numbers, but instead balances around the average numbers produced by your average players. Top lvl players are a relative nightmare to balance around, as they are the ones looking to squeeze out the best preformance, and will generally always find the most efficient route to travel (All forms of previous raiding. Ra'den one-phase, Garajal's troll add abusing for their damage buff, LK's bomb bug, more recently, Xhul's grounding totem, ect). Players will do all KINDS of things that likely never even crossed blizzard's mind, especially given that there are thousands of minds looking to maximize their preformance, and, what, less then 50 actually working on balance?

Finally, as for having only 2 specs for DHs, using balancing as an excuse is complete and total BS.

Consider this point - With the number of spec mechanic changes blizzard is introducing, they essentially have to redesign AND rebalance 25 specs this expansion, with Ferals being the SOLE dps spec to recieve nearly no mechanical changes. It is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to achieve balance when you continue to redesign the system you seek to balance every other year. Blizzard is not focused on balance. Balance is an afterthought - If they can get the middle of the bellcurve big, they have succesfully balanced the game, and that is something that blizzard has managed to do now since Cataclysm (Seriously). There will always be outliers whenever you get a certain amount of gear (Blizzard probably never saw the sinestra trinket being OP in DS, for instance), and thats a natural thing.

Another point - All of the current bottom specs are recieving massive revamps next expansion. The bottom 10 specs are - Survival (Complete revamp), Shadow (Complete revamp), Frost (Major class revamp, minor spec revamp), BM (Class revamp, spec revamp), Combat (Major spec revamp), Arms (Spec revamp to focus on Smash), Gladiator (Removed), Enhancement (Complete revamp), Elemental (Major spec revamp), and Unholy (Major class revamp, major spec revamp).

A final note - Fire/Arcane are both subject to significant damage swings when simulated, with almost thrice as much variance as every other spec. While this is more or less normal through Fire for the past 3 expansions, its not normal for Arcane, who, in the past, tended to have a much, much smaller variance between their overall damage. If you take a look at the lowest simulated damage (No crits/multistrikes), then you see that pretty much everyone is within 20k of each other, with Sub being the only exception. Obviously, Crit/Multistrike is bad for balance overall, and it is good that MS is being removed from the game.

[Zymn]

But then again, with the Death Knights they just added a whole new element (frost) and called it a day. In War3 the DKs was 100% unholy and Liches was the frost character. Guess they could do the same with DHs somehow.

There is a lot to tie frost into DK fantasy or did you forget the previous Lich King was Ner'zhul's spirit encased in ice and plopped in Northrend (northern continent with just a touch of snow and cold) on a throne made of ice in a TOWER of even more ice, who compelled Arthas to go get the sword Frostmourn. The WC3 unit didn't have any frost abilities but it also only had 4 of them. Not to mention that this generation of DK's are completely different to the 2nd war's DK (the ones made from dead pallies) and were created by Arthas and his scourge so there's plenty to tie it in.

DH's have their themes. Melee prowess and harnessing demonic magics, so fire, chaos, and shadow as far as the elements of magic in the game. Havoc's overarching theme is melee and a bit of chaos, Vengeance has a lot of fire themed spells and bit of melee again leaving a 3rd spec to pull primarily from shadow and chaotic magic drawn from demonic powers. As a ranged class, that's a Warlock.

[Tobedeleted123]

I love it because if DH had 3 specs, the skillset would get extremely dilluted.

[Varlak]

Cause that is a pretty good design to follow, right? "You enjoy playing retri pally? Too bad they suck, go play another class if you wanna do some real dps."

And really, what is with this argument of yours? "Hey,don't complain about your ONLY dps spec sucking, you know, you can tank... Oh you don't enjoy tanking? Too bad for ya mate.". It's almost hiralious that you think that makes any sense at all.

Dude you miss-understood me. I know this is not a good argument but lets face it, thats how blizzard always worked. I used to be a retribution paladin during BC and by WotLK I've re-rolled to DK when I've realised that blizzard would never really work on making Ret viable as long as they can both tank and heal.

In a perfect world every single spec would be viable at every ilvl tag. But thats not how it is. Personaly thats kinda why I'm not a fan of how class works in WoW.

Sure rogue havethe sub,assassin and combat spec. You can see it as flexibility. But in realy the 3 spec just mean that you can switch form a bad spec that you anjoy for a good one that you hate to play when you need to help your raid force to progress.

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leaving a 3rd spec to pull primarily from shadow and chaotic magic drawn from demonic powers. As a ranged class, that's a Warlock.

And unholy DK is already the mid range/melee hyrbid using dark force (unholy and chaos spell are pretty much the same thing with the same color theme)

[Saverem]

Not sure why it's so hard to imagine that only 2 specs for a class is a design choice and that only 2 specs are being advertised.

Because we are talking about the expansion AFTER Legion. I'm not expecting them to add a 3rd spec in Legion.

[Deleted]

I love how people in this thread cry about demon hunters not having enough depth and "buttons" , while at the same time crying about there not beeing a third spec.

[jayinjersey]

I have said this many, many, MANY times before - Blizzard does NOT balance around the top possible numbers, but instead balances around the average numbers produced by your average players.

I agree with nearly everything you are saying except...having played a Enhancement Shaman as a main, I can vividly recall Blizzard saying the reason why they got a nerf was that at BiS gear a player could be way too overpowered. I think it was either last expansion or late cata.

The downside is that it made early normal to mid heroic (no mythic then) horrible for them

[Saverem]

We can talk what will happen when humans discover how to make wormhole as well.

You seriously comparing something that has like a .0000000001% chance of occurring (making a wormhole) with something that has like a 90% chance (3rd DH spec)?

[Nezia]

Another thing I was thinking today...

One of the reasons dks were god tier during wotlk was because they could tank OR dps with any of their specs, they literaly had 6 specs to choose. And even through most of them were bad at the end of the day, since there were just so many options, at least one of them shined at any given time of the expansion.

And this rule has been true ever since wow took some real form, classes with more options, usually, are the top tier. It's pretty easy to notice, the logs can just show it clearly, the number of options you have for a given roll is directly proportional to the performance of a given class. I think the only exception to this are hunters, who usually are sitting in the middle of the bracket, but since they bring so much utility for the group, I don't think any group will ever be able to forsake at least 2 good hunters for their general comp.

So yeah, even through I expect DHs to really shine early in the expansion(even blizzard said they want returning players to have a "good time" playing their DHs, so they may be a bit overpowered at first), I can see them falling behind in the upcoming patches and expansions, and then having to sit in the same boat as retri pallys and shadow priests, hoping that blizzard will let them be at least viable for the next raid progression.

[Raugnaut]

I agree with nearly everything you are saying except...having played a Enhancement Shaman as a main, I can vividly recall Blizzard saying the reason why they got a nerf was that at BiS gear a player could be way too overpowered. I think it was either last expansion or late cata.

The downside is that it made early normal to mid heroic (no mythic then) horrible for them

I would like to go with a joke that Shamans get hit with the nerf bat for no reason. It was during late cata when they nerfed Enhancement, and they were just moving away from Hybrid taxes and all that. Blizzard didn't start balancing around the average raiders until MoP, with the solidification of LFR and Cmodes.

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Another thing I was thinking today...

One of the reasons dks were god tier during wotlk was because they could tank OR dps with any of their specs, they literaly had 6 specs to choose. And even through most of them were bad at the end of the day, since there were just so many options, at least one of them shined at any given time of the expansion.

And this rule has been true ever since wow took some real form, classes with more options, usually, are the top tier. It's pretty easy to notice, the logs can just show it clearly, the number of options you have for a given roll is directly proportional to the performance of a given class. I think the only exception to this are hunters, who usually are sitting in the middle of the bracket, but since they bring so much utility for the group, I don't think any group will ever be able to forsake at least 2 good hunters for their general comp.

So yeah, even through I expect DHs to really shine early in the expansion(even blizzard said they want returning players to have a "good time" playing their DHs, so they may be a bit overpowered at first), I can see them falling behind in the upcoming patches and expansions, and then having to sit in the same boat as retri pallys and shadow priests, hoping that blizzard will let them be at least viable for the next raid progression.

Actually the reason DKs were god-tier during early WotLK was because of their huge amount of benefits they brought to a raid/PvP, especially during early Wrath. Frost DKs could gain ~300 resist during the days, which translated to ~80% damage reduction, and a high chance for spells to be fully resisted. Unholy had powerful dots (diseases), and the ability to turn into a ghoul on death, essentially having a second life (Powerful in PvP). Blood had self-healing, in the days when only hybrids were capable of any sort of healing, and hybrid healing was weak as fuck. And Blood had a TON of self-healing. And also ARP.

So, no, the reason DKs were OP during wrath wasn't because they had 6 technical specs, but because they had blantantly overpowered mechanics for a day and age that weren't balanced around said mechanics. Frost DKs would slaughter casters, and having a frost DK reduced raid damage by 30% for your raid. Unholy DKs basically had 50% more health then everyone else due to their second life. Blood DKs could keep on self-healing for years. Ect, ect. Huge damage to boot, too.

[Ziamira]

You seriously comparing something that has like a .0000000001% chance of occurring (making a wormhole) with something that has like a 90% chance (3rd DH spec)?

Lmao. "90%" chance. Absolutely no where do you have any support to back up this claim. Just accept it. DH won't be getting a 3rd spec. ESPECIALLY a ranged spec. There isn't a single place where we have seen a DH as a ranged fighter, nor would it make any sense for them to be. What, are they going to throw their glaives as an auto-attack? Anything you could possibly add to DH to make them a ranged spec, which again, makes no sense, would just have them being a sudo-warlock.

[Ealyssa]

You seriously comparing something that has like a .0000000001% chance of occurring (making a wormhole) with something that has like a 90% chance (3rd DH spec)?

Talk about pulling number from your ass...

DH 3rd spec has pretty much 0% chance of bein a thing. The only reason blizzard would come with a 3rd spec is if they gice a new spec to every single other classes as sometime suggested. But that wont happen either.

You really are clueless about wow and blizzard if you really think that DH is "missing a spec", period.