[Pre-Beta] Havoc Discussion

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

Added awhile ago, and it's not like it actually changed anything. Blade Dance is only there because they made an animation for it. It feels so out of place, I wouldn't mind it being buffed and turned into a talent, but baseline it just does nothing.

I personally don't even care for the animation. It looks pretty cheesy, but I can see the appeal at least.

Chaos Strike doesn't even hit that hard anymore after the nerf. Pretty sure the last thing Havoc needs is a nerf, I think damage wise we're in a pretty decent spot before tuning. If they absolutely wanna keep blade dance, just turn it into an AoE spender to replace Chaos Strike in those situations(no cooldown).

Unfortunately, with how bad our mastery is, the fact that Blade Dance is physical isn't that big of a deal...

Long story short: Opinions are opinions.

You're the first person I've seen say the animation is cheesy, and it's rather head scratchingly confusing to me how it's "cheesy". It is extremely fitting with the theme of a class being touted by the dev's as "extremely mobile".

And the only thing about Chaos Strike that got nerfed that wasn't documented in patch notes was Annihilation. It's weapon damage outside of Meta wasn't changed a bit, unless you've got screenshots of Chaos Strike getting nerfed in Alpha though, I'm pretty sure it's Meta counterpart was the only thing actually nerfed.

I can agree about Blade Dance being physical not really being an issue, so there's that i guess?

[Rtrain]

Long story short: Opinions are opinions.

You're the first person I've seen say the animation is cheesy, and it's rather head scratchingly confusing to me how it's "cheesy". It is extremely fitting with the theme of a class being touted by the dev's as "extremely mobile".

And the only thing about Chaos Strike that got nerfed that wasn't documented in patch notes was Annihilation. It's weapon damage outside of Meta wasn't changed a bit, unless you've got screenshots of Chaos Strike getting nerfed in Alpha though, I'm pretty sure it's Meta counterpart was the only thing actually nerfed.

I can agree about Blade Dance being physical not really being an issue, so there's that i guess?

My mistake, guess it was on annihilation only. Shows how much I've been playing demonic.

Your character spins in a circle and there's some slash marks on your screen, it's not THAT exciting . I don't think it looks bad, just a little cheesy to me, even if it's fitting.

I don't mind blade dance at all, i'd just rather it not just be another button like it currently is, just because some people think it looks cool :/.

[Warstar]

Did they fix the uncoupled strikes? I know at one point someone said MH and OH strikes were uncoupled and not refunding Fury right due to only one of the 2 critting sometimes.

Unless something changed that I am unaware of they've always had a double crit if it crits at all. They don't have separate crit rolls either they both crit or they don't.

[Rtrain]

Unless something changed that I am unaware of they've always had a double crit if it crits at all. They don't have separate crit rolls either they both crit or they don't.

Currently bugged where OH just never crits.

[Etrnlaffair]

Currently bugged where OH just never crits.

Yea. That's what I thought they may of meant by the nerf of Chaos Strike.

[Warstar]

Currently bugged where OH just never crits.

You must be mistaken. Just tested out on some mobs in Stormheim and the 2 crits I got (thank you 14% crit rating...) both had both attacks critting.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

My mistake, guess it was on annihilation only. Shows how much I've been playing demonic.

Your character spins in a circle and there's some slash marks on your screen, it's not THAT exciting . I don't think it looks bad, just a little cheesy to me, even if it's fitting.

I don't mind blade dance at all, i'd just rather it not just be another button like it currently is, just because some people think it looks cool :/.

Hey, as long as we can agree to disagree about Blade Dance, we're cool :P And it's not spinning, per se. But it really does look like 3 Fel Rushes in a centralized location then a little stomp at the end. I agree it isn't much, but I like it regardless. Not soiling myself over it, I just like it more than, say, Chaos Strike for instance.

And i think most people would agree they'd rather it was more than just another button literally only affected by one talent, which makes one wonder if they have plans to have other talents or the artifact affect it in some way. Because as it stands, they really could've just left it as a talent and baked First Blood in (or not, but still, not gonna complain much about it, lol)

[wordup]

You must be mistaken. Just tested out on some mobs in Stormheim and the 2 crits I got (thank you 14% crit rating...) both had both attacks critting.

It's correct that Chaos Strike can still have both crit (and I believe they are still coupled for Chaos Strike only) however Annihilation on the other hand has the two abilities decoupled and OH can't crit at all, which seems to (I think) cause the in-Meta Fury refund problem that started last build.

[Vanyali]

It's correct that Chaos Strike can still have both crit (and I believe they are still coupled for Chaos Strike only) however Annihilation on the other hand has the two abilities decoupled and OH can't crit at all, which seems to (I think) cause the in-Meta Fury refund problem that started last build.

This has been my findings as well. Differences in Chaos Strike are under 1% and couple be from things moving / blocks of the second hit.

[Warstar]

It's correct that Chaos Strike can still have both crit (and I believe they are still coupled for Chaos Strike only) however Annihilation on the other hand has the two abilities decoupled and OH can't crit at all, which seems to (I think) cause the in-Meta Fury refund problem that started last build.

Hopefully they fix that since that's a pretty hefty ST dps loss as well. Makes me wonder if at high crit if it would even be a dps increase to go into meta at all with this current set up. Although with First Blood DS hit's hard as hell so probably. But even so it makes meta kind of a shit CD.

[Keltas]

Not sure if anyone has suggested it yet, but if nobody has and someone with alpha forums access wants to suggest it for me, I had an idea to incorporate blade dance a little better.

Here it is;

Chaos Strike/Annihilate no longer refunds fury on crit, instead it allows you to use blade dance/death sweep once on crit.
BD/DS have no cooldown, no cost, and cannot be used unless within a couple seconds after a chaos strike crit.


You can probably keep talents how they are with this change too.

[Factor]

Not sure if anyone has suggested it yet, but if nobody has and someone with alpha forums access wants to suggest it for me, I had an idea to incorporate blade dance a little better.

Here it is;

Chaos Strike/Annihilate no longer refunds fury on crit, instead it allows you to use blade dance/death sweep once on crit.
BD/DS have no cooldown, no cost, and cannot be used unless within a couple seconds after a chaos strike crit.


You can probably keep talents how they are with this change too.

So turn it in to how Raging Blow currently works for warriors? I'd prefer some different interaction.

[Warstar]

So turn it in to how Raging Blow currently works for warriors? I'd prefer some different interaction.

I agree. The RNG factor of fury warriors was what made me hate the class. Sometimes you feel like a rampaging barbarian tearing through people with a reckless abandon... and other times you feel like some nerd at a larp who can't get a crit to save his life.

[Dimzum]

I agree. The RNG factor of fury warriors was what made me hate the class. Sometimes you feel like a rampaging barbarian tearing through people with a reckless abandon... and other times you feel like some nerd at a larp who can't get a crit to save his life.

Perhaps a talent where Chaos strike can reset the CD and make the next Blade Dance free. You still get the regular CD rotation for AoE but for single target you can weave it in after Chaos strike.

[Baelroc]

Perhaps a talent where Chaos strike can reset the CD and make the next Blade Dance free. You still get the regular CD rotation for AoE but for single target you can weave it in after Chaos strike.

Yep exactly as I suggested earlier. A mechanic very similar to Ret's Divine Crusader proc with Divine Storm.

[Rtrain]

Not sure about you guys, I'd rather play a demon hunter then a ret paladin or fury warrior. You don't need to steal ideas, be more creative.

[The Archmage]

Not sure about you guys, I'd rather play a demon hunter then a ret paladin or fury warrior. You don't need to steal ideas, be more creative.

Agreed.

7char

[Warstar]

Not sure about you guys, I'd rather play a demon hunter then a ret paladin or fury warrior. You don't need to steal ideas, be more creative.

A lot of classes have procs. Don't have to be rude about it it's a simple mechanic shared across the board. Frost mages have Ice Lance or Frost Fire bolt casts, Fire mages have instant Pyros, Elemental shaman have instant Lavs Bursts, Assassination rogues have Dispatch procs and many many others.

Fact is Blade Dance has a high fury cost and zero synergy to the spec so something like a proc does make sense to deal with the high fury cost of the ability. It essentially does feel like hard casting a pyro in relationship to CS. Having some way that brings its interaction into other abilities would be a nice way to tie it closer into the spec other than 10 seconds are up and I have 50 fury time to push this button cause it does damage.

Something like BD potential reset on a crit makes sense since the fury refund from CS should have you at at least 50 fury anyways as long as you play with at least 10 fury in reserve at all times. Now, if it was something like raging blow that ONLY becomes active on crits then that's stupid because then you have to single target in order to AoE. Or even something that gives your next BD a free cast works as well since it lets you use the ability and get back to CS spamming.

Personally I would prefer something along the lines of:

If BD only hits 1 target 35 fury is refunded. This keeps the AoE cost of BD relative and brings it's fury cost more in line for a fluid game play style for ST.

Or, CS crits reduce the fury cost of BD by 25. This plays into the role of crit being amazing for DH and creates an interaction between CS and BD also allows BD to scale with crit in the same way that CS does.

And, on the AoE front they could change Bloodlet to a talent that reduces the CD on BD by 2 seconds for every target hit with Throw Glaive. Would allow that AoE talent to scale past 4 mobs as well as scale better with mobs that die faster. The 50 fury cost remaining still means that you can't simply spam back to back BD and have to generate fury between.

[Dimzum]

Not sure about you guys, I'd rather play a demon hunter then a ret paladin or fury warrior. You don't need to steal ideas, be more creative.

Warstar covered it pretty well. One issue is so many mechanics are already in game it is hard to pull off something entirely new. To get the mechanic to work well is an even greater challenge.

Procs/RNG/debuff/buffs are fine. Borrowing playstyle from other specs is fine if it fits the theme and playstyle of the Demon Hunter.

[Rtrain]

A lot of classes have procs. Don't have to be rude about it it's a simple mechanic shared across the board. Frost mages have Ice Lance or Frost Fire bolt casts, Fire mages have instant Pyros, Elemental shaman have instant Lavs Bursts, Assassination rogues have Dispatch procs and many many others.

Fact is Blade Dance has a high fury cost and zero synergy to the spec so something like a proc does make sense to deal with the high fury cost of the ability. It essentially does feel like hard casting a pyro in relationship to CS. Having some way that brings its interaction into other abilities would be a nice way to tie it closer into the spec other than 10 seconds are up and I have 50 fury time to push this button cause it does damage.

Something like BD potential reset on a crit makes sense since the fury refund from CS should have you at at least 50 fury anyways as long as you play with at least 10 fury in reserve at all times. Now, if it was something like raging blow that ONLY becomes active on crits then that's stupid because then you have to single target in order to AoE. Or even something that gives your next BD a free cast works as well since it lets you use the ability and get back to CS spamming.

Personally I would prefer something along the lines of:

If BD only hits 1 target 35 fury is refunded. This keeps the AoE cost of BD relative and brings it's fury cost more in line for a fluid game play style for ST.

Or, CS crits reduce the fury cost of BD by 25. This plays into the role of crit being amazing for DH and creates an interaction between CS and BD also allows BD to scale with crit in the same way that CS does.

And, on the AoE front they could change Bloodlet to a talent that reduces the CD on BD by 2 seconds for every target hit with Throw Glaive. Would allow that AoE talent to scale past 4 mobs as well as scale better with mobs that die faster. The 50 fury cost remaining still means that you can't simply spam back to back BD and have to generate fury between.

The problem is with the logic, not with the conclusion. You shouldn't go "hey ret paladins have this so I think we should also". We aren't ret paladins, we aren't fury warriors. These recycled abilities is something they're actively trying to get rid of to create class/spec identities and the logic behind these suggestions goes against that. It's just not the way to progress the spec.

Being creative is much harder then recycling, blizzard is perfectly capable of recycling abilities, they don't need more suggestions like that. Blade Dance lacks identity but that doesn't mean you should just ruin things that are fine now(like chaos strike and the refund) to make it work... Not to mention all the changes that would force to happen. (and make our secondaries even worse... jesus)

They could just remove Blade Dance and make Throw Glaive a spammable AoE ability and tune it that way. They could just remove the fury cost of blade dance and tune it to make it just worthwhile as an aoe filler. They don't need to change/nerf other interactions to make it work.(and cause the spec to require more work in the long run).

People are worrying about Blade Dance, when that's easy to change, a much harder thing to change is our talents interactions and synergies creating only cookie-cutter builds and removing a lot of "choice" Or how abysmal our mastery is going to be if it doesn't change. Or how little haste affects our AoE. Or why Rage of the Illidari still doesn't work and our other golden talents are awful(and considerably less interesting when used then when read, I thought they sounded pretty sweet initially.)