Artifact Catch Up

[Cien]

im glad tbh, should hopefully give some players more identification than being a jack of all trades and never knowing, nor my raid team, what they want me to play as i play all specs well as a priest and paladin, but hopefully now they'll help with that. at least there IS a form of catch-up to be implemented, i mean, it could just easily be as shitty as grinding for previous legendaries, i cant imagine them deliberately making that mistake again :P

[Eapoe]

Well firstly, spec swapping on a per encounter basis wasn't a common thing prior to dual-spec being introduced anyway. It also wasn't something that every class could do. Only the pure DPS classes could realistically use the same weapon in all specs, and even that's leaving out Combat Rogues.

Swapping specs should be something that isn't too punishing, because there's plenty of reasons someone might want to try a different spec out, but it shouldn't be as trivial as swapping talents has become.

Well, yes and no. Swapping specs per fight has become common place because you have specs that are better ST and others better AoE. Also with bosses that can be 1-4 healed as some are easier to heal and others are required a certain amount (Gorefiend mythic for example in how it chooses people to go to stomach phase). Also, with Legion, some of the classes look to be continuing the trend of this from what I've read, Hunters: BM for AoE/Cleave, MM ST, and SV just bad right now. Rogues: (if I remember the forum) Outlaw for AoE, Sub ST, Assass for a mix with no specializing in either.
Also, swapping is easy on Live without too much of an impact, but there is still multiple pieces of gear that influence what you want to play at optimal level. Currently you could use highest ilvl without feeling a drastic swing, but I itemized properly you definitely notice it.
I just don't want to be hindered later because I chose to level MM and now BM is what I need to play (as a for instance).

[Deleted]

This is one of those things than causes lack of tanks in LFR. I know a lot level as dps, and then switch to healer / tank for endgame content. Leveling through quests is annoying for holy paladins at least, unless they spam dungeons (my experience).

But.. Correct me if I am wrong , but didn't they say, that we would get acces to our second artifact early in the leveling process ?

[SirCowdog]

Well, yes and no. Swapping specs per fight has become common place because you have specs that are better ST and others better AoE. Also with bosses that can be 1-4 healed as some are easier to heal and others are required a certain amount (Gorefiend mythic for example in how it chooses people to go to stomach phase). Also, with Legion, some of the classes look to be continuing the trend of this from what I've read, Hunters: BM for AoE/Cleave, MM ST, and SV just bad right now. Rogues: (if I remember the forum) Outlaw for AoE, Sub ST, Assass for a mix with no specializing in either.
Also, swapping is easy on Live without too much of an impact, but there is still multiple pieces of gear that influence what you want to play at optimal level. Currently you could use highest ilvl without feeling a drastic swing, but I itemized properly you definitely notice it.
I just don't want to be hindered later because I chose to level MM and now BM is what I need to play (as a for instance).

Also is the problem of when Blizzard pulls some shenanigans mid-expansion and makes one spec better than another in a patch. Hopefully by then you've got all your artifacts maxxed out, otherwise you're gonna be up the creek without a paddle come raid day.

I can't say I like the idea of getting artifact power slower on your secondary grind. But we'll see how the final version turns out. Maybe they'll work something out.

[Maudib]

Pretty sure getting artifact for second/third spec won't be an issue. They will most likely make it so you get more artifact power when you finish one spec or something... Also system for getting artifact for second/third spec isn't in alpha yet (as far I know), so it's too early to worry about.

The absolute CORE system in the game, artifacts, not being implemented to the point of multi specs is, in and of itself, a good reason to worry.

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This is one of those things than causes lack of tanks in LFR. I know a lot level as dps, and then switch to healer / tank for endgame content. Leveling through quests is annoying for holy paladins at least, unless they spam dungeons (my experience).

But.. Correct me if I am wrong , but didn't they say, that we would get access to our second artifact early in the leveling process ?

Blizzard has "said" a lot of things... don't forget that anything they say can never be construed as a "promise" or even actual fact... although if it never happens it is not called a lie.

The SIMPLEST and most common sense approach would be to treat the artifact power as "talent points" were in WotLK. If you earned 60 points in one spec... you had 60 points to spec in the second and third.

They should simply make artifact power earned available to all specs. You only have to complete the "intro questline" for each spec artifact weapon in order to start spending the artifact power in a new spec.

Blizzard is trying instead to spin it so that it appears as "more content"... requiring you to repeat previously done content again and again... and again... and again.

This is not only going to hurt dungeons and raiding as a whole... it will also all but kill any desire to level many alts.

The ONLY reason WoD hasn't lost all subs is people leveling alts once they achieved flight.

If they don't revisit the artifact weapon spec thing... Legion will be a ghost town inside of 6 months.

[Lucypurr]

Well, i think for specs at the same chars, they could do an equal value (Ex, you have 1000artifact points in one spec, when you change spec, the other will have 1000 artifact points too).
And for alts, they could add a token like mop reputations have. When you reach max with one artifact in one char, you gain a token who adds a 100% bonus gain to artifact power in your account.

[Saverem]

TBH, I'm all for it, it's an MMORPG, MMOs are supposed to be sorta grindy. But I dun think it's gonna happen.

You're confusing American MMOs for Korean MMOs.

A lot of people don't like the grind aspect of MMOs, which is why they go with WoW instead of, say, Soul Blade (DISCLAIMER: I've never played Soul Blade, but being a Korean MMO, I assume it's grindy).

[SirCowdog]

You're confusing American MMOs for Korean MMOs.

A lot of people don't like the grind aspect of MMOs, which is why they go with WoW instead of, say, Soul Blade (DISCLAIMER: I've never played Soul Blade, but being a Korean MMO, I assume it's grindy).

I think you mean Blade & Soul.

It's not necessarily that grind is a bad thing. Look at Diablo. That game is pretty much nothing BUT grind. The difference is that the core gameplay loop is enjoyable in Diablo because you feel powerful, the skills activate smoothly, and loot drops all the time. It's very satisfying. But in WoW, drops don't happen very often, and when they do they're often not an upgrade. Or if they ARE an upgrade, it's not significant unless it's the final piece of a set bonus.

Blizzard needs to address the issue of WoW's core gameplay instead of chocking the game full of filler. The issue of a game being TOO much grind is when the reward doesn't match the amount of effort. WoD was full of that sort of thing. Hopefully Legion is not, despite what we've seen from the alpha/beta.

[Eapoe]

This is one of those things than causes lack of tanks in LFR. I know a lot level as dps, and then switch to healer / tank for endgame content. Leveling through quests is annoying for holy paladins at least, unless they spam dungeons (my experience).

But.. Correct me if I am wrong , but didn't they say, that we would get acces to our second artifact early in the leveling process ?

I might be completely wrong, but during leveling no. You will get access to the 2nd one after hitting max level and finishing the quest line for yours (not the full powering of it, but the ones that finish the RP chain of quests). That's one of the reasons (I believe) they are making it not feel bad or slow leveling as a healer or tank.

[Saverem]

It's not necessarily that grind is a bad thing. Look at Diablo. That game is pretty much nothing BUT grind.

One of the reasons why I've never played that game and never will.

[SirCowdog]

One of the reasons why I've never played that game and never will.

That's your personal preference, of course. But consider that there's a difference between mindless rep grinds, or daily grinds like in WoW, and when the entire gameplay of 'grinding' in D3 has a lot of depth, strategy, and an overall enjoyable feeling to play.

The difference is that in Diablo, they are trying to make a better game that's more enjoyable to play. But in WoW they're trying to slow you down as much as possible to support the subscription model. Why do you think daily and weekly lockouts exist? It's not to make the game better, or to make drops and other achievements more valuable. It's not to improve the experience of playing the game.

That's what Blizz needs to improve. Stop trying to slow players down by throwing speedbumps and lockouts at them, and start throwing out gameplay with more depth and replay value.

[Shelly]

I'm pretty sure we've already seen the catch-up mechanic.

If you've watched any dungeon runs you'll notice all the bosses dropping Shards of Potentiation or some crap like that which are basically artifact power you keep in your bag. As soon as you gain access to your next artifact weapon you can then go to your class hall, equip that weapon and spec, then just start clicking away to grind out levels.

Now this might set back your main artifact, but frankly anyone whom is really hard core progression will be concentrating on their single spec and artifact, then they'll level up the others as soon as they max out their main.

[Eapoe]

I'm pretty sure we've already seen the catch-up mechanic.

If you've watched any dungeon runs you'll notice all the bosses dropping Shards of Potentiation or some crap like that which are basically artifact power you keep in your bag. As soon as you gain access to your next artifact weapon you can then go to your class hall, equip that weapon and spec, then just start clicking away to grind out levels.

Now this might set back your main artifact, but frankly anyone whom is really hard core progression will be concentrating on their single spec and artifact, then they'll level up the others as soon as they max out their main.

Right, but again, when Blizz spoke about the artifacts the dev stated at that time that they will have a catch up but will not equal your primary. Also as people have said, how screwed does the player become when they focus leveling one just to have it overtaken by a different spec 1/2way thru the content just to have that one so far behind because you didn't focus on it.
Also, from what we've seen, it's easy to get artifact power, but who knows how much will be required as the xpac goes. It's fair to assume that since artifacts are to last the whole xpac that it will be a lengthy process to level up 1, let alone 3.

[Rivin]

I might be completely wrong, but during leveling no. You will get access to the 2nd one after hitting max level and finishing the quest line for yours (not the full powering of it, but the ones that finish the RP chain of quests). That's one of the reasons (I believe) they are making it not feel bad or slow leveling as a healer or tank.

They changed that at some point. Previously it was max-level only, but Blizzard recently stated that you'd get it early in the leveling experience.

[Elsif]

What grindfest are you talking about? You will get Artifact Power for literally everything. Doing a random bg, doing a random hc, questing, every single fucking activity in the game will award AP.

Also, Blizz said that there will be a catch-up mechanism for it. Even your second artifact weapon for the same character will receive a bonus.

I guess I mean re upgrading the different Artifact for a different spec.

How do you make the new Artifact feel legendary, while not forcing the player to "grind" again?

[PrairieChicken]

That is what artifacts are all about - keeping you locked to one spec and to make you "level up" longer (aka vanilla wow).

It will be grindy as hell for first few months until they nerf it later and you people should be familiar with it already

[Eapoe]

That is what artifacts are all about - keeping you locked to one spec and to make you "level up" longer (aka vanilla wow).

It will be grindy as hell for first few months until they nerf it later and you people should be familiar with it already

That's the problem, the keeping you locked to one spec issue. Previous legendaries and the grind to level them (cloak and ring of course) are/were useful to every spec, even tank/dps/heal ring and cloak were still obtainable at same ilvl, just not the upgrade fragments from Archie, but this locking you to one at a power above the others is kind of a crap deal.

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They changed that at some point. Previously it was max-level only, but Blizzard recently stated that you'd get it early in the leveling experience.

Thanks for the heads up on that, haven't seen that and at least that's a good step in a decent direction for the artifact weapons.

[tanksin the enhance shamy]

they will probs just let you swap points from your main to your secondary same as respecing talents

[Daffan]

If you don't play for 1 month they should give you full artifact upgrades for free and instantly.

[Supercool]

Well, yes and no. Swapping specs per fight has become common place because you have specs that are better ST and others better AoE. Also with bosses that can be 1-4 healed as some are easier to heal and others are required a certain amount (Gorefiend mythic for example in how it chooses people to go to stomach phase). Also, with Legion, some of the classes look to be continuing the trend of this from what I've read, Hunters: BM for AoE/Cleave, MM ST, and SV just bad right now. Rogues: (if I remember the forum) Outlaw for AoE, Sub ST, Assass for a mix with no specializing in either.
Also, swapping is easy on Live without too much of an impact, but there is still multiple pieces of gear that influence what you want to play at optimal level. Currently you could use highest ilvl without feeling a drastic swing, but I itemized properly you definitely notice it.
I just don't want to be hindered later because I chose to level MM and now BM is what I need to play (as a for instance).

For pretty much every spec Blizz has dumped all our AOE abilities into talents, and taking them costs us a lot of single target damage.

This has very interesting implications for raiding. Most AOE/Cleave encounters in WoD are just encounters where AOE/Cleave specs do way more than everyone else all the time and give up very little if any single target damage to do it. They might even gain ST damage like Ele shamans. In Legion however it's entirely possible that you're not going to want absolutely everyone to spec for AOE. So the trick becomes finding the right cutoff point of assigning some players to AOE and some others to pure single target.

But basically there should be a significantly bigger effect from swapping talents than from swapping specs.