1. #1241
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    I like to troll tanks in Auchindoun by casting Rain of Fire over them on the "Destruction Warlock" mob that casts his own version of Rain of Fire. It works a little too well, so I am kind of worried about giving the spell such a non-negligible cost.

    Our AoE has worked so well on Live for years now that the idea of changing that is depressing. Oh well, have to make change for change's sake just to keep the game "fresh".
    Last edited by PickleballAce; 2016-03-27 at 12:36 AM.

  2. #1242
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    Anyone tested if havoc works with drain life? Along with the artifact talent, that could allow some serious self heal. I also wonder how the artifact talent works... Does it proc off drain life?

  3. #1243
    Quote Originally Posted by Rethul Ur No View Post
    Our AoE has worked so well on Live for years now that the idea of changing that is depressing. Oh well, have to make change for change's sake just to keep the game "fresh".
    Fire and Brimstone has also caused endless amounts of balance problems (particularly in the manner that contribute to Destruction being way too versatile), so it's not incredibly surprising that it's getting changed.

    Honestly, I don't think I have a problem with RoF being a shard spender. That, combined with the artifact talent, allows it to be cool and powerful and finally feel good to cast. (It was worth casting in MoP and early WoD, yes, but I would argue that it was never particularly satisfying to do so.) It DOES mean that you have to use talents to get anything that resembles sustained AoE - because there is literally nothing there baseline - but I'm also not sure that's a problem. Different specs have different baseline strengths, and all that.

  4. #1244
    Stacking a bunch of RoF with Mannoroth's Fury felt really satisfying to look at.

  5. #1245
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    Quote Originally Posted by bio347 View Post
    Fire and Brimstone has also caused endless amounts of balance problems (particularly in the manner that contribute to Destruction being way too versatile), so it's not incredibly surprising that it's getting changed.
    To be fair, their idea of "balancing" Fire and Brimstone was cutting our Ember generation which absolutely did nothing to hurt us when we're in a situation where the spell is still self-sustainable (with or without Charred Remains).

    They pretty much totally ignored the modifier on Fire and Brimstone. Nerfing that would've had an effect on the spell regardless of number of targets without also making Charred Remains mandatory for any sustained AoE. It's not really the spell's fault they totally failed to see the very obvious "tuning knob" they had available to them.

  6. #1246
    They played with the numbers on F&B several times in MoP, and it remained really powerful the entire time.

    And regardless, if a fight is AoE-heavy the new F&B talent is ridiculously strong and Rain of Chaos is way cooler than any other AoE could hope to be.
    Last edited by bio347; 2016-03-27 at 07:32 PM.

  7. #1247
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    Yes, especially since it's a double whammy of Incinerate being buffed (plus artifact stuff) and F&B no longer reducing damage, I'd say it's going to be almost ridiculous, I guess it will be toned down.

  8. #1248
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    FnB baseline modifier was buffed more than nerfed over the course of MoP so I'm not really sure it's a case of "it's too powerful no matter what". The majority of patch cycles have kept it between 40% and 45%. Either way, the opportunity cost of Shadowburn will definitely be felt, especially since we won't be able to machinegun Shadowburns on nearly-dead mobs with FnB.

    It'd be nice to finally get to see exactly how Rain of Chaos functions. Maybe the spec will actually be playable some time before Summer.
    Last edited by PickleballAce; 2016-03-27 at 09:38 PM.

  9. #1249
    Quote Originally Posted by Rethul Ur No View Post
    FnB baseline modifier was buffed more than nerfed over the course of MoP so I'm not really sure it's a case of "it's too powerful no matter what". The majority of patch cycles have kept it between 40% and 45%. Either way, the opportunity cost of Shadowburn will definitely be felt, especially since we won't be able to machinegun Shadowburns on nearly-dead mobs with FnB.

    It'd be nice to finally get to see exactly how Rain of Chaos functions. Maybe the spec will actually be playable some time before Summer.
    We can always hope for the next build... They did a bunch of changes to it when they unlocked feral I don't understand why they couldn't have unlocked the spec then. Theorycrafting how a spec functions isn't as useful as testing it in-game. Even if the artifact questline wasn't done that hasn't stopped them from unlocking other specs that had theirs changed down the road.

  10. #1250
    Quote Originally Posted by Gnarilex View Post
    We can always hope for the next build... They did a bunch of changes to it when they unlocked feral I don't understand why they couldn't have unlocked the spec then. Theorycrafting how a spec functions isn't as useful as testing it in-game. Even if the artifact questline wasn't done that hasn't stopped them from unlocking other specs that had theirs changed down the road.
    I hope they release it this week we could use some destruction and chaos right now. *grins*

  11. #1251
    I sincerely hope we do indeed get destro in the next build. It's an inherent problem with staggering spec releases; some specs simply get less testing than others, leading to less chance for revision. I just hope we get rewarded with a nice artifact quest for all our waiting. That was pretty much the main reason we didn't see Feral until now, right? The extra time was needed to finish the unique quest. I hope since destro is stealing their scepter from a kirin'tor facility that we get something suitably... destructive.

    Having said that, simply going off whats presented currently on paper, I have a feeling destruction is probably going to present itself as, yet again, the most versatile spec of the three in the warlock toolkit. Affliction is, frankly, a mess, and while demo has shaped into a promising single target build, i worry about its target switch ability and relative ramp up time. Destruction in Legion looks like it could turn out to be not only the best at burst aoe, target switching and sustained aoe, but now with the changes to Havoc, FnB, and the Havoc talent, Destro could also take place as king of multi target sustained cleave as well. Affliction would probably still perform better on council type fights, but thats a rare and specific setup.

    My main concern is that we're being (for now) pigeonholed into using Imp. I don't know about others, but for me the imp is possibly the least destruction oriented pet available, thematically. Especially considering Demo is so imp-heavy it feels weird that theyre trying to push us toward one specific demon type at all.
    At least imps aren't affected much by movement, I guess. Gives us a dispell too. Unless that's pruned. I haven't checked demon spells to see what's changed in that regard.
    Last edited by Kalmakk; 2016-03-29 at 11:07 PM.

  12. #1252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmakk View Post
    I sincerely hope we do indeed get destro in the next build. It's an inherent problem with staggering spec releases; some specs simply get less testing than others, leading to less chance for revision. I just hope we get rewarded with a nice artifact quest for all our waiting. That was pretty much the main reason we didn't see Feral until now, right? The extra time was needed to finish the unique quest. I hope since destro is stealing their scepter from a kirin'tor facility that we get something suitably... destructive.
    Indeed. The pace of getting updates to alpha is too slow overall anyway, and a September release of the game seems likely. It'll be April before we even get to start testing Destruction.

    Having said that, simply going off whats presented currently on paper, I have a feeling destruction is probably going to present itself as, yet again, the most versatile spec of the three in the warlock toolkit. Affliction is, frankly, a mess, and while demo has shaped into a promising single target build, i worry about its target switch ability and relative ramp up time. Destruction in Legion looks like it could turn out to be not only the best at burst aoe, target switching and sustained aoe, but now with the changes to Havoc, FnB, and the Havoc talent, Destro could also take place as king of multi target sustained cleave as well. Affliction would probably still perform better on council type fights, but thats a rare and specific setup.
    100% agree. Affliction lost way too much. It feels like half a spec. Demo, just like you said, has a ramp up time and the pets won't be able to target swap or burst anything efficiently, making it anything but a versatile spec during progress. Destruction on the other hand seems to have everything. Even compared to the other ranged classes. The value of Shadowburn shouldn't be underestimated in a game that's been pruning executes from classes. Yet the class also has the best two target cleave in the game, and seemingly at least better than average AoE when you spec for it.
    Last edited by mmoc92c203c636; 2016-03-29 at 11:27 PM.

  13. #1253
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmakk View Post
    My main concern is that we're being (for now) pigeonholed into using Imp. I don't know about others, but for me the imp is possibly the least destruction oriented pet available, thematically. Especially considering Demo is so imp-heavy it feels weird that theyre trying to push us toward one specific demon type at all.
    At least imps aren't affected much by movement, I guess. Gives us a dispell too. Unless that's pruned. I haven't checked demon spells to see what's changed in that regard.
    The imp is probably the most thematically close out of our lineup of basic demons, if you think about it. The succubus is related to shadow magic and subtlety, the felhunter is more closely tied to affliction, and the voidwalker is also shadowy (and not technically a demon). Simply on the strength of using fire magic as opposed to shadow, the imp is the best fit for Destruction. (The Doomguard in its current form also doesn't feel like a fit with its shadowbolts, and while the infernal is the purest form of Destruction demon, it also requires a sustained multi-target situation to work.)

    Personally, it doesn't feel weird to have the imp back because I've played through the eras where it was either the default choice or tied to Destruction specifically. Kinda miss the little guy, honestly. And it's also a pretty versatile companion - a ranged attack helps with target switching and such, and its dispel and heal currently remain intact.

  14. #1254
    You're quite right about the imp. I hadn't considered that the little ankle biter was the only demon to use fire magic. Makes plenty of sense in that context. Glad to know he still has the dispel too. By the way, heal? You mean that 2% thing over a duration? I mean, sure it's there, but I don't think I ever cast that, even in periods where imp was used legitimately. I hope they actually buff it somewhat. At least to healthstone levels. Might be worth using in that case.

  15. #1255
    Hopefully a new build will be out today with destro as a playable spec finally!

  16. #1256
    Quote Originally Posted by caturday View Post
    Hopefully a new build will be out today with destro as a playable spec finally!
    Rumor mill (at least on twitter) hints a beta release today, which in my mind implies all specs playable (the only two remaining are destro and brewmaster, I believe), and maybe a new leveling zone or two unlocked. Obviously grain of salt, etc, etc.

    I was able to give destro a quick whirl about two months ago on alpha. There was a way to stay in the spec for one play session on a brand new 100, but you couldn't start the weapon quest. Obviously even with the spec not being officially unlocked, it has had a lot of revisions since I tried it, but it felt VERY slow with its form of shard generation, and chaos bolt costing two shards and having a longer cast time. It wasn't nearly as fun as I find my warlock as destro on live, but he also has MUCH better gear (ilvl ~738 mythic with 4pc and ring compared to 680 greens). Hard to make an apples to apples compare until they allow us to import our live characters into the alpha/beta.

  17. #1257
    Quote Originally Posted by zurm View Post
    Rumor mill (at least on twitter) hints a beta release today.

  18. #1258
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    Quote Originally Posted by zurm View Post
    Rumor mill (at least on twitter) hints a beta release today, which in my mind implies all specs playable (the only two remaining are destro and brewmaster, I believe), and maybe a new leveling zone or two unlocked. Obviously grain of salt, etc, etc.

    I was able to give destro a quick whirl about two months ago on alpha. There was a way to stay in the spec for one play session on a brand new 100, but you couldn't start the weapon quest. Obviously even with the spec not being officially unlocked, it has had a lot of revisions since I tried it, but it felt VERY slow with its form of shard generation, and chaos bolt costing two shards and having a longer cast time. It wasn't nearly as fun as I find my warlock as destro on live, but he also has MUCH better gear (ilvl ~738 mythic with 4pc and ring compared to 680 greens). Hard to make an apples to apples compare until they allow us to import our live characters into the alpha/beta.
    Looks like you are correct. Look at the (mouse hover) text for Nethaera's locked post (second from top): "with the new alpha build (21384) we've added the order hall campaigns for all specs of Monk, Shaman, and Warlock."
    “I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: ‘O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.’ And God granted it.” -- Voltaire

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  20. #1260
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhantombox View Post
    *snip*
    What part of the word "rumor" makes you think citations are useful or meaningful? It's not like it's an official blizzard source. And it's not like searching is that difficult. However, RATHER than give you a passive aggressive link to "let me google that for you", I will, this one time, actually provide you a link. In the future, 1) refrain from demanding citations for rumors, and 2) if you insist on ignoring #1, at least put in MINIMAL effort and search.

    https://twitter.com/rwownews/status/715233012028477440
    Last edited by zurm; 2016-03-30 at 08:16 PM.

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