New race/class combinations

[jellmoo]

You do realize you did by adding words I didn't say right?

And you realize that isn't a strawman, right?

Which you haven't ... just because they aren't killed outright doesn't mean they aren't killed by extended exposure.

So I need to provide a quote that covers every single possibility that could exist? Sure, it might kill them. The quote does not say that. The quote says it hurts them. That's it. If you can provide something that says that prolonged exposure to the holy light kills a Forsaken Priest, then great, that would certainly go a long way towards proving your point.

You can't even read what I wrote when you quote it. Clearly, I stated there are two types of context for self destructive ... so I cannot possible mean it always means that it is fatal. What you stated clearly states it causes real harm. What you stated state it is self destructive. The light in lore is stated to be destructive to the undead. They are destroyed by the light.

1+1=banana is the crux of your argument here. You are saying that the Light destroys the Undead. My quote does not say that. It is not implied at all. It says it hurts them. Point finale. You need to provide a source that says otherwise, and then all we'll have is contradictory sources.

Forsaken Priests can shut off their channeling of the light for a reprieve ... and a Death Knight/tank isn't always been healed during a fight and they are a target not the one channeling. Name one Holy Priest that is Forsaken in WoW ... all the ones I find are canonly shadow.

I have no knowledge whatsover of Holy Priests in the Forsaken. I also can't think of any Holy Goblin Priests off the top of my head, so I guess they don't exist either. Per my quote, Blizzard has at the very least acknowledged that Forsaken Holy Priests do in fact exist.

False, the Light is being channel to heal them ... and it still hurts them ... so channeling light that isn't meant to heal themselves means?

That it hurts? I've said all along that it hurts. Hurts like hell. You're the one saying that it kills them. A Holy Forsaken Priest channeling the Light to heal a tank is not healing himself. Are you saying he casts a healing spell and then dies?

Name one Holy canon Forsaken Priest. Also, where did I say Forsaken Priests? I am talking about general. A Priests that stops channeling the light, is still a Priest. A Paladin that stops channeling the light, they aren't a Paladin. Paladins are always connected to the Light, a Priest doesn't have to be.

Again, provide a source. You keep saying the same things but not providing a source to back them up. You say that there is a fundamental difference between a Holy Priest and a Paladin when it comes to the Light. I say there isn't. They both use the Light, they just use it in different ways.

You do know the difference between a singular and plural noun right? The First Paladins were a mix of Clerics (priests) and Knights (Warriors). You need to stop adding to what I say ... I am willing to believe once was an accident, you have done far more than once so I this point I must assume you are doing so on purpose.

What did I add here? I pointed out that one of the Paladin founding members was a Priest. That's it. The original Paladins were Knights trained by Priests to learn how to use the Light and Priests trained by Knights to use weapons and armour. That's been my point all along and you just reinforced it.

[Darththeo]

When you add a word such as "automatically" to the argument to take it down, that's a strawman. I don't know where you learned to argue, but adding something to what someone says that changes what they say to make it easier to refute is a strawman.

You are saying that the Light destroys the Undead. My quote does not say that. It is not implied at all. It says it hurts them. Point finale. You need to provide a source that says otherwise, and then all we'll have is contradictory sources.

I am sorry for assuming you have actually played World of Warcraft. The Light is destructive to the undead according to game lore, did you even play Wrath of the Lich King? Paladins had spells for a while that either only worked on these like undead or had additionally affects to the Undead.

In the quote you cited, they talk about physical crippling pain caused by the light and that undead using the light is self destructive and yet somehow you come across of that only meaning it is a little to moderately painful? Even if it is only a little painful, death by a 10,000 cuts. Everything you stated, supports the use of the light being fatal to undead, it is just you refuse to see it because it doesn't literally say that.

You can cite a Holy Forsaken Priest, yet use their supposed existence as evidence you are right ... all you have is that Forsaken Priests can channel the light, not that they are holy ... you are making a leap. This is a huge whole in your argument that you clearly care nothing about.

I mentioned alcohol in this conversation once, and it is somewhat akin to the Light with Forsaken. A little will cause more help than harm, extended prolonged use causes more harm than good.

I have no knowledge whatsover of Holy Priests in the Forsaken. I also can't think of any Holy Goblin Priests off the top of my head, so I guess they don't exist either. Per my quote, Blizzard has at the very least acknowledged that Forsaken Holy Priests do in fact exist.

Per your quote, you are adding that. They state that undead can still channel the light, not that they are Holy. For all you know, they are Shadow Priest using the occasional Holy spell. I am not arguing that they can't channel the light.

What did I add here?

I have explained what you added.

[The Stormbringer]

My top list of new race/class combos I'd like to see, and minor explanations on how they could fit into the lore. This is obviously a simple summary, but I feel like they could all work in the end.

Alliance

Gnome Paladins: They have Warriors, they have Priests, and they've already shown the capability to use their desire to learn to push themselves to interesting places. This combined with their need to protect themselves, their home, and others I think could get them there, and they're already pretty close to two of the pre-existing paladin races (Humans and Dwarves).

Worgen Paladins: Much like the Gnomes, they already have Warriors and Priests. Unlike Gnomes, they've shown a much closer relationship to the Light already, having their own Cathedral and views similar to Stormwindian Humans. I feel like there's no reason they couldn't have Paladins who have been afflicted by the curse and transform.

Worgen Monk: This one may be a bit of a stretch, but we've seen just how far the Pandaren trainers have managed to travel, so why not to Gilneas? They may have only just started training people before the Curse hit pre-Cataclysm. It only takes one trainer.

Draenei Rogues: Having hooves does not make it impossible for someone to sneak. We see this in-game with hostile Tauren and Satyr NPCs, and even Mishka, an Alliance Draenei NPC who wears leather, uses energy as resource, has stealth, and wields daggers. This tells me Rogue is a possibility for them. More than that, we have the Rangari from Draenor, who seemed all about being sneaky and infiltrating places.

Night Elf Paladin: Now, I know what you're thinking... Night Elf Paladin? What? They wouldn't be Paladins in the sense of Humans, Dwarves, and Draenei, but rather much like Tauren are as Sunwalkers. Only for the Night Elves, they would be Paladins of Elune.

Horde

Goblin Monks: Much like Worgen Monks, it only takes a single Pandaren teacher to make it to Kezan in order to pass this one on. And hey, what Goblin wouldn't jump at the chance of learning some mystical martial arts mumbo-jumbo from a lost civilization? Think of the profit you could make teaching other mooks once you mastered it!

Undead Paladins: Sir Zeliek is the biggest contender here, and while he was personally raised by the Lich King, I think it's possible you might have other Undead who managed to rekindle or find faith in the Light and muddle through the pain to do it. We already had it confirmed by Blizzard that the Forsaken can use the Light to heal, but it is uncomfortable/painful for them. Forsaken are known for their willpower and discipline, and some are known to hate or despise themselves, so I feel this could work out fine.

Blood Elf Druid: Blood Elves have been known to use Arcane magic as an approximation to Nature magic in the past. They've reshaped their forests, bound animals, created treants, and made gardens bloom with it. More than that, there was that one NPC in the Botanica who could shapeshift. Take all that and add in the teachings they've learned from the Tauren and the Trolls recently and I feel you have plenty of justification for Blood Elf Druids.

Tauren Rogue: It's been joked about, but there are Grimtotem Rogues, Satyr Rogues, and Mishka. Give these heifers some love too, eh?

[jellmoo]

Honestly man, I don't think there's any way either of us can convince the other. My interpretation of the quote is pretty direct, while you just try and infer things from it, looking into what it doesn't say as opposed to what it says.

We've gone around in more circles than I can count and continue to not see eye to eye. I'm inclined to simply agree to disagree and move on. I think you're wrong and you think I'm wrong, and no amount of arguing is going to change either of our minds on this.

I'll just sum up my point one last time:

- Forsaken Priests can use the Light
- It hurts like hell when they do
- It doesn't kill then (we disagree)
- They can use the founding of the Order of the Silver Hand as inspiration to start their own Paladin order (we disagree)
- Because a Paladin is more or less simply a Martial Priest (we disagree)

I appreciate the passion with which you argue, even if I do not agree with you. But I can't see us reaching any sort of consensus here.

[In Ogres We Trust]

Just place Jellmoo, Hammerfest, and Humbugged on ignore.

- - - Updated - - -

My top list of new race/class combos I'd like to see, and minor explanations on how they could fit into the lore. This is obviously a simple summary, but I feel like they could all work in the end.

Alliance

Gnome Paladins: They have Warriors, they have Priests, and they've already shown the capability to use their desire to learn to push themselves to interesting places. This combined with their need to protect themselves, their home, and others I think could get them there, and they're already pretty close to two of the pre-existing paladin races (Humans and Dwarves).

Worgen Paladins: Much like the Gnomes, they already have Warriors and Priests. Unlike Gnomes, they've shown a much closer relationship to the Light already, having their own Cathedral and views similar to Stormwindian Humans. I feel like there's no reason they couldn't have Paladins who have been afflicted by the curse and transform.

Worgen Monk: This one may be a bit of a stretch, but we've seen just how far the Pandaren trainers have managed to travel, so why not to Gilneas? They may have only just started training people before the Curse hit pre-Cataclysm. It only takes one trainer.

Draenei Rogues: Having hooves does not make it impossible for someone to sneak. We see this in-game with hostile Tauren and Satyr NPCs, and even Mishka, an Alliance Draenei NPC who wears leather, uses energy as resource, has stealth, and wields daggers. This tells me Rogue is a possibility for them. More than that, we have the Rangari from Draenor, who seemed all about being sneaky and infiltrating places.

Night Elf Paladin: Now, I know what you're thinking... Night Elf Paladin? What? They wouldn't be Paladins in the sense of Humans, Dwarves, and Draenei, but rather much like Tauren are as Sunwalkers. Only for the Night Elves, they would be Paladins of Elune.

Horde

Goblin Monks: Much like Worgen Monks, it only takes a single Pandaren teacher to make it to Kezan in order to pass this one on. And hey, what Goblin wouldn't jump at the chance of learning some mystical martial arts mumbo-jumbo from a lost civilization? Think of the profit you could make teaching other mooks once you mastered it!

Undead Paladins: Sir Zeliek is the biggest contender here, and while he was personally raised by the Lich King, I think it's possible you might have other Undead who managed to rekindle or find faith in the Light and muddle through the pain to do it. We already had it confirmed by Blizzard that the Forsaken can use the Light to heal, but it is uncomfortable/painful for them. Forsaken are known for their willpower and discipline, and some are known to hate or despise themselves, so I feel this could work out fine.

Blood Elf Druid: Blood Elves have been known to use Arcane magic as an approximation to Nature magic in the past. They've reshaped their forests, bound animals, created treants, and made gardens bloom with it. More than that, there was that one NPC in the Botanica who could shapeshift. Take all that and add in the teachings they've learned from the Tauren and the Trolls recently and I feel you have plenty of justification for Blood Elf Druids.

Tauren Rogue: It's been joked about, but there are Grimtotem Rogues, Satyr Rogues, and Mishka. Give these heifers some love too, eh?

Gnome paladin: No (it was bad enough that they got the priest class)
Worgen paladin: No (Gilneas has no history with the order, and paladins are immune to curses)
Worgen monk: No (the curse prevents them from reaching internal balance/chi)
Draenei rogue: Yes (the lore from Warlords supports their inclusion)
Night Elf paladin: No (they have no history of paladins, and that niche role is already filled by the Priestesses of Elune)
Goblin monk: No (the goblins see no point in the practice. On a side note, the class should have been restricted to Pandaren only)
Undead paladin: No (seriously... )
Blood Elf druid: Yes/No (yes, in the sense that they have the innate ability to become druids, and no, in the sense that it undermines their racial lore. To that end, night elf mages should have never been introduced)
Tauren rogue: No (the tauren consider rogues to be without honor; hence, their limitation to the Grimtotem clan)

Anything else?

P.S. The only "reasonable" options are blood elf druids, Draenei rogues, pandaren druids, and worgen shamans.

[Darththeo]

I'll just sum up my point one last time:

- Forsaken Priests can use the Light
- It hurts like hell when they do
- It doesn't kill then (we disagree)
- They can use the founding of the Order of the Silver Hand as inspiration to start their own Paladin order (we disagree)
- Because a Paladin is more or less simply a Martial Priest (we disagree)

I appreciate the passion with which you argue, even if I do not agree with you. But I can't see us reaching any sort of consensus here.

Your quote you cite uses the term self destructive. The wiki entries on the light use that is destructive to undead.
The game itself talks about how the Holy Light is a weapon against the undead.

I don't get how you can't see the light is fatal to undead. You are like ignoring the game and your own quote saying you are taking a direct interpretation. I feel you aren't talking anything directly from the quote you cited. I feel you are choosing to only take something literally stated rather than seeing what is said. I feel you are far more inferring things than you are admitting.

Paladin isn't just a martial priest. It is a way of life ... it is a devotion to the cause of ridding the world of undeath and any other profane beings. Lorewise, Sunwalkers aren't Paladins (there are even quotes that state they avoid calling Sunwalkers Paladins, but this is obviously not true). Essentially, what you are describing has to be a Paladin not 100% devoted to the light ... my response is that isn't a Paladin at all.

[jellmoo]

Your quote you cite uses the term self destructive. The wiki entries on the light use that is destructive to undead.
The game itself talks about how the Holy Light is a weapon against the undead.

I don't get how you can't see the light is fatal to undead. You are like ignoring the game and your own quote saying you are taking a direct interpretation. I feel you aren't talking anything directly from the quote you cited. I feel you are choosing to only take something literally stated rather than seeing what is said. I feel you are far more inferring things than you are admitting.

Paladin isn't just a martial priest. It is a way of life ... it is a devotion to the cause of ridding the world of undeath and any other profane beings. Lorewise, Sunwalkers aren't Paladins (there are even quotes that state they avoid calling Sunwalkers Paladins, but this is obviously not true). Essentially, what you are describing has to be a Paladin not 100% devoted to the light ... my response is that isn't a Paladin at all.

Again, we simply disagree. We are reading the quote differently, have a different interpretation of how the Light functions in regard to the Forsaken, and a different interpretation over what a Paladin is. I think I'm right, you think you are. I think I've proven my point, you think you've proven yours. I can't see how I can convince you, and I can't see how you can convince me.

I feel like we could keep this conversation going on forever and not get anywhere. I honestly feel it's best to just agree to disagree and move on from it.

---

Let me suggest we just shift topic ever so slightly: Are there any race/class combos missing from the game that you think could fit Lore wise?

[Darththeo]

Let me suggest we just shift topic ever so slightly: Are there any race/class combos missing from the game that you think could fit Lore wise?

Lorewise, Blood Elf Druid, but it does cause some regression in their archetype. Essentially, I put this on the same level as Night Elf Mage ... it can be explained in lore, but it seems on the surface to be contrary. I can't see it being put into the game. Added to the face, that it is currently 2 druids to 2 druids for Alliance/Horde ... they would need to add an Alliance only Druid.

In terms of gameplay, Night Elf Paladin (lorewise isn't a Paladin, similar to the Sunwalkers). It bothers me that Alliance didn't gain a new Paladin in Cata. Horde gained a new Shaman (with Goblins), so I felt that the Alliance should have had Paladins added ... and it could be explained in lore, just like Sunwalkers.

[-Gr-]

New race/class combos= Profit for blizzard via race changes.

[jellmoo]

Lorewise, Blood Elf Druid, but it does cause some regression in their archetype. Essentially, I put this on the same level as Night Elf Mage ... it can be explained in lore, but it seems on the surface to be contrary. I can't see it being put into the game. Added to the face, that it is currently 2 druids to 2 druids for Alliance/Horde ... they would need to add an Alliance only Druid.

I don't love the idea of a Blood Elf Druid, but I don't hate it either. My biggest concern is that I don't see the natural story progression to how they get there. They aren't particularly tight with either the Trolls or the Tauren to have them be mentors. The best idea I have is perhaps Cenarius tries to get them to re-join the Druidic fold, but it seems forced at best since that's more or less the tradition they were escaping from.

Evening it out with the Alliance is a tough one. Neither Gnomes nor Dwarves seem like a fit. Draenei actually seem worse than either of those two. That pretty much leaves Humans... I mean... I guess it could be explained, Worgen teaching them the old ways, but it seems rather bland at the end of the day.

In terms of gameplay, Night Elf Paladin (lorewise isn't a Paladin, similar to the Sunwalkers). It bothers me that Alliance didn't gain a new Paladin in Cata. Horde gained a new Shaman (with Goblins), so I felt that the Alliance should have had Paladins added ... and it could be explained in lore, just like Sunwalkers.

I actually like the idea of Night Elf Paladins (Knights of Elune or whatever they can be called). Like Tauren, it isn't particularly elegant, but I think it could at least be workable. (To be fair though, I never really understood why Goblins can be Shaman...).

The one I'd like (and before it gets contentious I realize that it can be construed as "ridiculous") is a Worgen Paladin. There's plenty of lore to go against it, absolutely, but there's something about the bestial yet noble Worgen Paladin that appeals to me.

[Friendlyimmolation]

New race/class combos= Profit for blizzard via race changes.

if Blizzard only cared about Profit we wouldn't be having this discussion because all races would have been able to play all classes already .

[The Stormbringer]

Just place Jellmoo, Hammerfest, and Humbugged on ignore.

- - - Updated - - -
Gnome paladin: No (it was bad enough that they got the priest class)
Worgen paladin: No (Gilneas has no history with the order, and paladins are immune to curses)
Worgen monk: No (the curse prevents them from reaching internal balance/chi)
Draenei rogue: Yes (the lore from Warlords supports their inclusion)
Night Elf paladin: No (they have no history of paladins, and that niche role is already filled by the Priestesses of Elune)
Goblin monk: No (the goblins see no point in the practice. On a side note, the class should have been restricted to Pandaren only)
Undead paladin: No (seriously... )
Blood Elf druid: Yes/No (yes in the sense that they have the innate ability to become druids, and no, in the sense that it undermines their racial lore. To that end, night elf mages should have never been introduced)
Tauren rogue: No (the tauren consider rogues to be without honor; hence, their limitation to the Grimtotem clan)

Anything else?

P.S. The only "reasonable" options are blood elf druids, Draenei rogues, pandaren druids, and worgen shamans.

Bad enough? So, there's basically no reason against Gnome Paladins except your dislike of them, got it.

Paladins are immune to DISEASES, not curses.

You're just making up the thing about the Worgen, especially since they went through a ritual that allows them greater control and discipline. There's nothing in the story that says that (the not being able to handle chi) about them. You may have a point if the fact that they still transform is considered them being unable to 'reach internal balance', though.

Whose to say that the Priestesses of Elune wouldn't take up arms and armor and train themselves in martial combat as well?

I already gave a reason why Goblins would want to be Monks, they would see a way to make money off it.

I see no argument against Undead Paladins.

Also, the Tauren accepted a number of Grimtotem into the fold, meaning that they could easily have them among them now.

Also, how do Worgen Shaman make sense? They're just Humans with a curse, and Humans have no connection to the elements. I'll agree that Pandaren Druids might make sense, though they'd need someone to teach it to them. Also, since Chi is the same force that Shamans use (Spirit), Worgen Shaman wouldn't work according to your claim.

EDIT: Edited for better formatting.

[Syegfryed]

use arcane magic to make things with a nature is not a reason to be druid, to be a druid you must drain power directy from the emerald dream, and only the old high elves do the arcane-nature magic, the blood elves become a warrior and military race, without this, an they have zero contact with the emerald dream

tu put blood elf druid is the same thing to put a goblin, who could explained by some crazy, but just dont work and it is not needed

~~

and about worgen paladin could be more ok lorewise, but i dont remember humans of gilneas as paladins and maybe the curse could prevent then to be paladins, but this was not been told yet

[Hammerfest]

Again, what you addressed is ... an outright breaking of lore ... even Bliz has yet to actually do that.

Metzen considered the Blood Elf Paladin to be a break in the lore and said so in the DVD that came with the TBC special edition.

[Deleted]

Only sensible options still remaining are Draenei Rogues (Rangaari etc) and Tauren Mages (there are several Tauren fire magey NPCs). While I'd love Orc priests I know that;s never going to happen (No connection to the light and Garry kind of pushed the remaining orcs away from the shadow side).

Blood Elf Druids are not an option if you ask me. They may study nature, like the botanists in Botanica, but they aren't that closely connected to it. They make as much sense as blood elf or undead shaman.

[Syegfryed]

Only sensible options still remaining are Draenei Rogues (Rangaari etc) and Tauren Mages (there are several Tauren fire magey NPCs). While I'd love Orc priests I know that;s never going to happen (No connection to the light and Garry kind of pushed the remaining orcs away from the shadow side).

draeneis and taurens rogues should totally happens, since gnomes and goblin are warriors, and pandarens are rogues too, size is not a problem

orcs priest could happens, and could not be a big problem, see, taurens and trolls are all priest, priests related with the spirits, not all holy light like humans and the others, and after warlocks with the fel magic, void and shadow magic is not a deal

[-Gr-]

if Blizzard only cared about Profit we wouldn't be having this discussion because all races would have been able to play all classes already .

They care enough about it to allow Cowadins to be a thing.

[Deleted]

Night Elf Warlock - Maybe they could summon Good Moon Demons and help others with them. Always wanted a female warlock night elf so I could watch the female night elf and an succubus at the same time. Night Elves can already be Shadow Priests and both the warlock and the shadow priest get their powers from Yogg'saron.

Human Druid - Elwynn Forest is a lush forest. I would be surprised if nobody had studied the trees there and become a druid.

Worgen Monk - They have hands and they can hit with them. That's all you need to be a monk. They can already be warriors and that's much harder than being a fat panda monk.

[Keristrasza]

Orcs have no history with druidism, yet the blood elves originate from a race that does... .

This entirely. That and they do still have some connection with their druidic past.

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=10166/whitebarks-memory

Also technically their is already a Belf druid in game. Over in Botanica.

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=17975/high-botanist-freywinn

[Friendlyimmolation]

Night Elf Warlock - Maybe they could summon Good Moon Demons and help others with them. Always wanted a female warlock night elf so I could watch the female night elf and an succubus at the same time. Night Elves can already be Shadow Priests and both the warlock and the shadow priest get their powers from Yogg'saron.

Human Druid - Elwynn Forest is a lush forest. I would be surprised if nobody had studied the trees there and become a druid.

Worgen Monk - They have hands and they can hit with them. That's all you need to be a monk. They can already be warriors and that's much harder than being a fat panda monk.

God moon demons...


what?