[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Morally Grey Storm]

If by support spec you mean a spec that can heal others and has a raidwide(or not raidwide) buff/cd, then by all means lets include Fecal durids, Doomkins, Shadowpriests, Prot Paladins, Guardruids and whatnot.

Then lets compare shall we?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I think a support that's kinda nice was when Shadow Priests were like Mana Batteries during BC.

[Deleted]

If by support spec you mean a spec that can heal others and has a raidwide(or not raidwide) buff/cd, then by all means lets include Fecal durids, Doomkins, Shadowpriests, Prot Paladins, Guardruids and whatnot.

Then lets compare shall we?

I find it quit funny that it is always the Paladin who should be the buffbitch. But you hear rarely people saying the very same thing about , well every other class that isn't ret.
Like Druids for instance. Since Warcraft 3 they were primary supportiv, or Priests who were primary healers , or Shamans , who could deal dps but in both WC3 and classic were primary supporters. Hell even Deathknights were supporter Heroes in WC3.
So why are they never mentioned there? Their roles are by far more fitting as the supporters than a ret is.

Or how should this scenario play out?
A Ret Paladin is a Fanatic , Zealot like Paladin who is bent on the destruction of all evil that could do harm to the innocent.
They are bringers of justice , divine avengars. It was they under the command of the legendary Alexandros Morgrain - the Ashbringer - who have cleansed most of the Plaguelands from the undead. It was they - a broken Paladin order - who have obliterated Tens of Thousand of Scourge forces.
Their Paragon the Ashbringer killed hundrets of Undead in an blink of an eye and we now , our selfs in command of this mighty sword - the elected leader of the newly reformed silver hand and de facto leader of all Paladins , who are stepping into his very footsteps.
And now we shall lead the worlds forces against the looming threat of the mighty Burning Legion and the apocalyptic forces of the Old Gods.
We shall do so , with our mighty sword we will purge the taint from the world an -
No , wait a second it goes more like this. We shall do so , by supporting the crap outa our buddys while they are doing the work with our mighty sword - BUFFBRINGER.
And it shall be echoed throughout history - Ret you stupid cunt give me might or you are getting kicked from the raid.

[Bolt66]

I don't understand how a spec with such a rich lore, has such a disappointing talent tree/skills.
We were so close this expansion, only needing a gap closer, a meaningful raid/rbg utility, and some better interplay between our skills to complete the spec but they decided to just take a giant dump on it instead.
Other specs allow you to pick certain patterns that actually allow for meaningful changes to the play style, while we're stuck with the same crap that let you do x more damage or x more healing. There is little synergy and even less interaction between the skills.

[PvE Rant]:

Currently half the tree just seems like absolute garbage:

• Repentance: Why does it have a cast time.
• Blinding Light: Better now but still meh, definitely less interesting than Fist now that there are ways of lowering its cooldown.
• Justicar's Vengeance: Don't see the point in PvE when I can't stun the targets that I need to stun for the extra damage. 5HP!? ya right.
• E4E: Maybe tanks will let me taunt every minute to get some use out of this? Super useful cause raid damage is usually physical.
• Word of Glory: I'm a DPS!!! if shit goes sideways I have LoH and hand spells, if anything more is needed the raid has issues.
• DI: the old version was more fun, if this wasn't blocked by forbearance or had another effect maybe it'd be more fun.
• Steed / SoL: ahh the pity mobility talents that are in direct competition and don't even do their intended jobs well...Thanks so much blizz. Steed CD is way too high, SoL cost should not be 3HP. If we could have Steed on a 20s with +~20% baseline runspeed, I'd be happy I think.
• Level 100 talents: This should be the most exciting tier and everything on it is just SO bad. We got BoJ to force us into liking the crappy greater blessings, HW (the channelled cast for a melee spec), and Equality that's already been beaten to death by everyone since it's just terrible.

So we have 3 rows of okay-ish talents and 4 really bad ones. Even the okay ones offer very little in the way of meaningful/fun talents. It would be more acceptable to have crap niche talents if we actually had the tools we needed baseine, but we don't!

This game is heavily based on mobility and for a melee spec not to have it is as ridiculous as not having a viable interrupt.
Every melee DPS spec has to be able to do certain things without relying on talents (unless they're just there to make them better or offer a different play style). We need to have a gap closer, an interrupt, a cleave, an on-demand AoE that doesn't need 20 seconds to ramp up, and one non-healing utility that is needed by the group (and is hopefully not the current greater blessing system ugh).

There is nothing in Legion Ret that makes me excited to play it. Fury looks like a lot of fun. I'm looking forward to using different talent combinations for my Frost DK (even though they need help in mobility as well) that result in different play styles. Hell even though DHs look very simple, their crazy mobility alone seems like a blast to play. In the end it seems the only fantasy that's involved in playing this spec is the one I have of the devs finally making it fun and equal to the other specs that have everything given to them on a platter. Oh but we look really good as we aspire to being mediocre in most aspects of the game, so yay us!

@Thete props for the spot on Gimli reference. It made me burst out laughing until I realized how true it will be in game. Also a big fan of the videos, keep it up!

[Deleted]

I think a support that's kinda nice was when Shadow Priests were like Mana Batteries during BC.

Figures , because they were also one of the strongest dps in BC. Despite being also more usefull than a Ret.

[Alindra]

Protection also gets Sacrifice (with a reduced CD no less), and can trade BoP in for Blessing of Spellwarding, or pick up Blessing of Salvation.

Is that still the case? The last build's tooltip diff removed its "Replaces Blessing of Protection." text. (Not in Alpha, so I can't check myself.)

[edit: Come to think of it, it probably still does since that was the build they removed "Replaces Crusader Strike" from our T2 talents.]

[Aeluron Lightsong]

A little overzealous there(Pun intended) but really we do more then buff. -500 DKP minus for any dev that thinks Paladins are buffbots.

[Deleted]

A little overzealous there(Pun intended) but really we do more then buff. -500 DKP minus for any dev that thinks Paladins are buffbots.

Fortunatly enough it isn't the case. More so ironicly as it stands ret's support is in fact the weakest.
Even the story arc of blizz is now saying that Ret isn't a supporter but a Zealot like Templar/ light Jihadi.

[Anardel]

Probably true.

The trouble is, whilst GBoW and GBoK provide non-negligible buffs over the duration of a boss fight, this is not typically the problem on boss fights: the problem is when damage spikes, and both abilities are useless for this.

On the other hand, GBoM, even if it is an additional bonus on top of Ret's own damage, is random. If you pop it on a warrior during the execute phase, but it never procs off Execute... well it's going to be pretty rubbish. All you can do is hope that probability is on your side, because even with Blessings of Justice, every Execute cast has an eighty percent chance of not proccing GBoM.

So in summary, the defensive Greater Blessings don't do enough when it matters, and you have no effective control over the offensive Greater Blessing, beyond buffing certain people and praying. This does not feel like fun utility.

Meanwhile, Holy paladins get a shorter cooldown than Rets do on Blessing of Protection (15% - 30% vs 30-60sec), AND Blessing of Protection (15% - 30% vs nothing), AND get another Blessing (Sacrifice). Protection also gets Sacrifice (with a reduced CD no less), and can trade BoP in for Blessing of Spellwarding, or pick up Blessing of Salvation. Blessing of Protection also benefits from Forbearant Faithful, so I'm not sure if that or Protector of the Ashen Blade is a superior cooldown reduction effect on that ability.

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Indeed. I mean, sure it's only 3% more damage, but that's still likely to be more useful than causing some additional overhealing on the tanks with GBoW :P .

= + =


I still can't see it myself:

GBoW with Blessings of Justice restores 2% max health per 10secs. Let's assume everyone has 2M health in Mythic raids - that's 40k healing per 10secs. Over the course of a fight you're absolutely right that it will add up to a decent enough amount. But chances are any raid damage the bosses put out will deal far more than 4k DPS - and to far more targets than any realistic number of Ret paladins in the raid can help with, what with the limit of 3 Greater Blessings.

GBoK has the same problem. Let's assume 24k spellpower and BoJ, so that it can shield the tank for 120k every 6secs. Again, very nice over the entire fight. Not so good when Algalon starts casting Big Bang. For that, you want Blessing of Sacrifice. Which Ret doesn't have.

I have to wonder how many healers will notice GBoW & GBoK. I mean, I honestly like providing support in raids - tossing a Flash of Light or whatever to help keep people (even if only myself) up adds to the satisfaction I have when raiding. Back when my guild was working on getting Oregorger down etc, having another paladin who could do two BoSacs was really useful... but honestly I don't know that my guild's healers would have even noticed 2% health per 10secs on 3 people, or a 250% SP shield on the tank every 6secs.

Meanwhile, GBoM is random, which makes things awkward when you put it on someone who does high damage through only a few abilities - as above, even with BoJ, each ability has an 80% to NOT proc GBoM, which is awkward if it opts for that Immolate tick rather than the big Chaos Bolt hit. To be sure, you're right that it'll average out just fine over the course of a fight, or over many fights, and hey, 6% bonus damage to 3 people isn't to be sniffed at. I do think it will be a hassle to keep switching GBoM around the raid though (never mind the spare GCDs, it's another thing to track when I'd rather be making sure I focus on my own DPS, not standing in fire etc)... maybe I can just start charging for it (at least until people notice it buffs MY DPS instead of theirs :P ). I think I would prefer it offering a flat 3% (6% with BoJ) damage increase, just because I prefer consistency over RNG-heavy burst.


Well, I think you can also make a case for (a) hassle and (b) hating the RNG. Oh, and spec identity. And the same basic toolkit as all other melee DPS.

At the same time, I worry about making GBoW and GBoK too strong outside of raids. Let's suppose they make GBoK absorb, say, 240k damage every 6secs with BoJ, so that more Rets move away from GBoM. Great, it's much nicer in raids now. Of course, it's also pretty potent in PvP etc too now...

Under the circumstances, I feel Blizzard would save themselves a lot of headaches if none of the Greater Blessings directly buffed DPS. It becomes much easier to tune the Greater Blessings that way.

That's my concern. If GBoM doesn't have any DPS loss attached to it, but also is a marginal gain (like improving total raid's dmg by about 0'67% as somebody calculated a few weeks ago here on this thread) then you can buff it and forget it, because it doesn't make a difference. So it can simply be eliminated because has no impact at all.

If GBoM is potent enough to be a noticeable gain, then our output will be reduced so in the end, GBoM is not a buff nor a gain, but a compensation for taking a ret paladin and it overshadows any other GBlessings, making them less desirable.

In both cases however, it's a RNG inside a RNG. I can buff it to a warr in Executing phase but it can proc or not. And if it procs, it can be on a white autohit, on a trinket proc or something instead an Execute. So I need to be lucky two times: to proc and to proc from the attack I want.

This isn't about numbers or DPS, it's about game design, about fun and mechanics. If somebody finds fun to buff and wants again a Casino experiencie waiting for a proc on a particular skill, then OK. But I don't want that Casino experience again.I have had enough.

In short, if GBoM is barely noticeable then it shouldn't exist at all (it doesn't impact gameplay as Seals and the latter were eliminated) and if it is a real gain, then GBoW and GBoK will be scrapped by vast majority of players and our DPS will be nerfed accordingly making GBoM not a buff but a part of our "DPS rotation".

[Morally Grey Storm]

Out of interest, I would like you all to state with a single sentence, what do you find exciting about Ret come Legion.

Let's see who finds what to be interesting and fun.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Fortunatly enough it isn't the case. More so ironicly as it stands ret's support is in fact the weakest.
Even the story arc of blizz is now saying that Ret isn't a supporter but a Zealot like Templar/ light Jihadi.

Well sometimes they don't always see things correctly >.>

[Deleted]

As for the utility bit, sure, they're not utility in the traditional sense (which doesn't exist anymore anyway, thanks to the pruning disarmament), but there are other factors to consider as well. Such as that Retribution is one of the few specs that will be tuned to be a stronger DPS thanks to our lack of mobility. Which is something i've seen surprisingly absent in these discussions. Is no one here aware that we'll be tuned to be 105 to 110% of any other DPS? Seems to not be the case. Even without the Blessings making us stronger by taking advantage of performance outliers, we would still be more effective damage dealers anyway.

I think those of us that have been at it for 10+ years know that its very unrealistic to think that Blizzard would make us more powerful than other melee, even with lower mobility. Maybe some sort of burst or some sort of compensation on the PvP tree. But in PvE? I really wish i could believe that, but until i see it coming from a blue, i will keep my expectations in check.

If it were the case, it would be a trade-off i could live with... though i think it will raise more problem's than it will solve (other specs would definitly find it unnaceptable). Adding some more mobility options and normalizing the damage seems like a better solution overall for the game. But, we shall see. Honestly i am more concerned about the talent tree and the way judgement only seems to work in one target making swapping targets quickly a real pain.

- - - Updated - - -

Out of interest, I would like you all to state with a single sentence, what do you find exciting about Ret come Legion.

Let's see who finds what to be interesting and fun.

I haven't and won't hide the fact that i find live Ret way more fun and interesting than Legion Ret. But it is what it is. I used to be excited about Ashbringer until i saw the price it came with. ^^

Well... i guess the new animations are pretty exciting though!

[Taeldorian]

Out of interest, I would like you all to state with a single sentence, what do you find exciting about Ret come Legion.

Let's see who finds what to be interesting and fun.

Hmm Alright. I look forward to incorporating talents like zeal (haste buff), and the new holy power generators into our rotation. Since judgement has that damage frame window now, I look forward to that type of rotation and squeezing as many holy power spenders as I can within the time window. I personally like that playstyle, so that's what I'm looking forward to in terms of rotation. I Like that better than the proc system we have now (although both are interesting). That's opinion though.

Another thing would be the sweet animations. Raising ashbringer into the air (or any sword for that matter) to use a spell or attack is something I've always wanted honestly. So glad to see it incorporated here.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I like what Live Ret is right now. Is it what what I think is the best? No not really but I think it can improve. If Alpha went live right now? I'd be miffed but I'd find a way to get through it because well... I made it this far, have to keep going.



Ashbringer ability idea: You slam Ashbringer into the ground, sending a Holy Nova of sorts in front of you. Stuns Undead and Demons for X seconds and does X damage. >.>

[ruiizu]

Out of interest, I would like you all to state with a single sentence, what do you find exciting about Ret come Legion.

Let's see who finds what to be interesting and fun.

Up until all the other changes occurred, Hand of Hindrance and Wake of Ashes both sounded really good; a powerful ranged slow and an on demand AE the generates Holy Power and hits really hard AND slows sounded pretty great.

- - - Updated - - -

I like what Live Ret is right now. Is it what what I think is the best? No not really but I think it can improve. If Alpha went live right now? I'd be miffed but I'd find a way to get through it because well... I made it this far, have to keep going.



Ashbringer ability idea: You slam Ashbringer into the ground, sending a Holy Nova of sorts in front of you. Stuns Undead and Demons for X seconds and does X damage. >.>

Google asks: Did you mean Wake of Ashes? (minus the weaksauce animation)

[Reghame]

I can advocate for steed being baseline as is and get burned at the alter.
Solsacra can advocate for the cooldown being increased by HALF and hardly get a mention.

i will say im glad to see him and anaxie post on this topic since they are actually well known posters here on this site. Welcome back the both of you however short lived it was.

[anaxie]

I can advocate for steed being baseline as is and get burned at the alter.
Solsacra can advocate for the cooldown being increased by HALF and hardly get a mention.

i will say im glad to see him and anaxie post on this topic since they are actually well known posters here on this site. Welcome back the both of you however short lived it was.

All people in these forums need to know is to listen to Solsacra and ignore 99% of other posters. I havn't been around in any way since this expansion started so I'm not reliable but I can still see mechanical advantages when others scream herpity derpity.

I know people miss my blunt force common sense insight. But don't weep for me. I'm gone and the only presence I am going to have ever again is a retired mascot.who posts pictures of hookers and gets banned like clockwork for invading the safe space of fragile posters.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

The only chance rets actually have to get a melee raid spot in Legion is if GBoM still remains so strong that Rets in fact will be stacked by the more serious guilds, obviously the likelyhood of GBoM staying as it is now (6.66%~ dps increase for the person who has the buff) is small. I'm just quietly waiting for Beta to get close to the end and Devs realize that Rets might be too popular and then hit it with the Hammer of Wrath (RIP, seriously what are they thinking...?)


For my taste they're taking ret too far away from it's core and turning it into a warrior, it's borderline desperate how much crap they've taken from the old Arms Warrior model and put on top of rets so far in Beta. While I see a lot of potential for pvp I don't exactly see the fun gameplay anywhere, even if in theory there's a lot of good scaling potential with 50% haste again looking like the end goal. I just can't shake the frustration of Colossus Smash-esc gameplay being forced on ret, a gameplay style we've never had before.

[Deleted]

I think he means that the talent could reduce it to what it currently is in the talent setup but we have a longer cooldown version as baseline. After all, all other melee get a baseline movement speed ability of some kind (some better than others).

No. Simply no.
If people don't think pve and pvp when they give feedback then don't give feedback at all.

I don't consider of any idea good as long as it only concerns one side of the game.
Why do you want to punish one side just because you don't play it ?

[anaxie]

No. Simply no.
If people don't think pve and pvp when they give feedback then don't give feedback at all.

I don't consider of any idea good as long as it only concerns one side of the game.
Why do you want to punish one side just because you don't play it ?

Because PvP is a side game.

Truth hurts

worry about your PvP trees