I'm happy DH will only have 2 spec.

[Warstar]

Snip

I think you're mistaken on a lot of your points. WW monks have had a lot of places to shine. They've had certain situations where they're amazing... and then they got nerfed. Start of WoD for example they were the best hands down in Highmaul for most of the fights. ToT with that stupid trinket they were up there. It's been years but Ret was amazing in Wrath and they've had limited but still included in high end raiding since TBC. Shadow Priests were broken strong in TBC and since then got hit kind of hard with that terrible "hybrid tax" that doesn't exist yet they do bring a lot of healing so it does seem to play into a roll there and yet even with a lower dps than other classes you still see shadow priests in high end raiding just not as much as other classes.

As for certain classes being garbage at certain fights... duuuhhhhhhh? Unless you want to get into mages and warlocks which by end tier are broken most classes traditionally have fights they suck at since you don't want one class to be the best at everything since with that why would you bring any other class? Looking at speed runs in HFC where they bring 10+ arcane mages and other high burst classes to kill bosses like Fel Reaver in 28 seconds that shows what they DON'T want the general game play to be and this is only in BiS end game over geared + ilv boost situations. Most classes have fights that they get to shine on and they do really well on and feel awesome and then they have other fights where they're mid range and other fights they kind of suck on and that's ok. Most people don't raid in guilds like Method that have to have the best possible raid set up for every fight.

One thing that's rather shitty is the cycling through of top specs per class through an expansion. It's kind of annoying playing one spec in one tier then the next tier comes out and now you're playing another spec and then the next tier comes out you're playing another spec again. Look at mages through WoD. They all started out as Frost in Highmaul then moved to Fire in BRF and now they play Arcane for BRF or go back to fire for AoE fights. Or even worse look at rogues. They've had to gear up 2 specs the entire expansion. Sub for ST and then Combat for AoE. It's annoying having to play Sub for a boss, respec to Combat for trash, respec back to Sub for the next boss, respec back to Combat for trash again, woo aoe boss get to stay as combat, then respec back to Sub for the next boss...

If anything the fact classes have so many options that it screws a lot of people over. Some people just love a certain spec of that class and that's their favorite. They know it and they're good at it and they might not be that strong at other specs. What if someone just loves Survival hunters but hates Marks? I raise you the 39359 Marks parses on Fel Reaver to that 199 Survival parses on Fel Reaver. I know a lot of Mages who just love Frost and yet most of them end up getting forced to play Arcane because it's so much better. How is that good game play? Sure Arcane mages are amazing and the best DPS atm but at the same time it screws over those people who would rather be playing Frost.

[Echil46]

So, basically, the same thing ?

That's a trade-off : Either you're going to be great with the spec you want to play and everyone is playing the same, or you're going to suck, and everyone is going to pressure you into playing a more "useful" spec to get access to the high end raids. While I understand the reasoning (and agree with it), there's a flaw.

If you're in a high end guild, you're after the down. You're doing everything you can to achieve the best result with your class. Which includes switching specs. I'm not saying it's "right", because obviously having to change spec between every fight is a design flaw (or is it ?). But, if you want to achieve high end raiding, you kinda know what you're getting into. Results > Class fun.

Now, if you want to play your class, with the spec you like, that's fine, but since class balancing is constantly changing, you kinda know that some times, you won't be the best possible mage/rogue/dk/warrior/warlock/hunter (waho, that's alot). Which means, if you want to stick with your class / spec, you can't access a high end raiding guild. But, that's not really what you're after, since to you, class fun > results.

I think there's a middle ground. Rogue, Mage, all the dps classes that stick to the same group (ranged or melee), I agree. It sucks having to change your spec often. But, i feel like that's the only way the game designers got to make every spec relevant at some point. I mean, if you like frost, you'd be pissed if frost stayed at the bottom for the whole expansion, right ?
Druid and shaman, that's something else. If they switch spec, their role switches too. I don't think that, if you get to play shamelem, you get to switch that often. Because, inherently, you are not percieved as the same "role".

I'm not gonna argue that Demon Hunter should get a ranged spec, tho i feel like that would be the most convenient : if one of your dps suck, you can switch to another, but fewer people are going to ask you to change. But, if you pick a demon hunter, you know there will only be one dps spec, hence you might be stuck with an underpowered spec for some time. Or, you can be really op.

[jayinjersey]

Wait...did you just say Ret Paladins were "they've always been the least used in high end raiding"


Really?

[Selah]

Just how monks were totally OP when they first came out? Oh wait, they kind of sucked in MoP. And the latter half of WoD for that matter as dps.

Maining a Monk from launch of MoP, they were really good during MoP. PvP and PvE both were great, they were never stupid OP like DKs were during Wrath but still in a good place. Not sure why they had to change everything come WoD.

[Deleted]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziVqj1e0MJ8

Just going to leave that here, as some people really need to watch it as they are not grasping the potential of havoc at all it seems.

The only thing that will cause DH to be crap is a total failure in the tuning, there is 4 different playstyle sub-specs within havoc, covering single target, council, movement and full on sustained aoe.

They are in a far far better place that a hell of a lot of the other classes, insofar as they have actual baseline abilities having great synergy with talents resulting in very different playstyles to suit different situations/fight mechanics without having to respec(just ask sub rogues about aoe compared to outlaw).

If you can't see that depth already, then i doubt the class is for you tbh and you should probably concentrate on what you already play.

[Deleted]

A 3rd spec would still be nice to have. You know, like every other class in the game. What specs would you delete from the game if you had to pick without making a lot of people angry?

Choice is nice to have as it accommodates more people's likes.
Plus it wouldn't hurt anything to have another ranged spec. Another entire class would be too much now imo.

You are assuming blizzard would be able to make two different specs , which is unlikely to happen. There are already 2 other agile leather melees in the game 3 if you count druids. Making a third spec for demon hunter that fits the theme of the class and isnt totally arbitrary and shoehorn in "just to have a third spec" , that at the same time has a unique feel and flavor thats different from the other classes is really difficult at this point.

This way its more likely to have 2 fun, unique , flavourfull specs that also put out decent numbers. There have been so many times where certain classes where considered "two spec classes" even tho they acutally HAVE 3 , just because the other spec was so underwhelming.

Choice is nice to have sure. But making choice available in exchange for lowering the overwall quality of each spec is a terrible idea.

[-Gr-]

You are assuming blizzard would be able to make two different specs , which is unlikely to happen. There are already 2 other agile leather melees in the game 3 if you count druids. Making a third spec for demon hunter that fits the theme of the class and isnt totally arbitrary and shoehorn in "just to have a third spec" , that at the same time has a unique feel and flavor thats different from the other classes is really difficult at this point.

This way its more likely to have 2 fun, unique , flavourfull specs that also put out decent numbers. There have been so many times where certain classes where considered "two spec classes" even tho they acutally HAVE 3 , just because the other spec was so underwhelming.

Choice is nice to have sure. But making choice available in exchange for lowering the overall quality of each spec is a terrible idea.

Why are you assuming the quality would be lowered? I don't understand this. It is easily achievable to have 3 specs that are unique and flavorful. How many ranged leather agility classes do we have in the game right now? It's something that I'd like to see. Also haveing one dps sepc you will most certainly go through entire tiers of being garbage and being op just like Spriests have been the entire game. I doubt anyone playing a DH would like to be treated like a Spriest in raids. Oh hey man can you just tank? We don't need your trash Havoc spec.

[Nezia]

Why are you assuming the quality would be lowered? I don't understand this. It is easily achievable to have 3 specs that are unique and flavorful. How many ranged leather agility classes do we have in the game right now? It's something that I'd like to see. Also haveing one dps sepc you will most certainly go through entire tiers of being garbage and being op just like Spriests have been the entire game. I doubt anyone playing a DH would like to be treated like a Spriest in raids. Oh hey man can you just tank? We don't need your trash Havoc spec.

Nah, some peoples just blindly trust in blizzard capacity of properly balancing the game, thus they think havoc will always be competitive only because the starting product looks good.

Even dks, warriors and shamans who have 2 specs have their bad times, it's just as I said before, the raid performance usually is directly proportional to the number of specs avaible for that given role, blizzard just sucks at balancing the game for serious raiding, it's just like someone said before, they balance the game around raid finder/normal/heroic raiders and only after this is done they try doing something about top performance. That's why classes with more options usually deal more damage.

And even through I have almost no doubt that DHs will be competitive(probably the best melee class) at first, it's certain that at some point in the next expansions they will strugle to find a place on a mythic core, and the few who find will be tanks.

[Warstar]

Nah, some peoples just blindly trust in blizzard capacity of properly balancing the game, thus they think havoc will always be competitive only because the starting product looks good.

Even dks, warriors and shamans who have 2 specs have their bad times, it's just as I said before, the raid performance usually is directly proportional to the number of specs avaible for that given role, blizzard just sucks at balancing the game for serious raiding, it's just like someone said before, they balance the game around raid finder/normal/heroic raiders and only after this is done they try doing something about top performance. That's why classes with more options usually deal more damage.

And even through I have almost no doubt that DHs will be competitive(probably the best melee class) at first, it's certain that at some point in the next expansions they will strugle to find a place on a mythic core, and the few who find will be tanks.

Rogues and Warriors are traditionally garbage at the start of expansions and only become amazing by end game due to scaling. Rogues were terrible at the start of WoD and they were only good for one boss in Heart of Fear in MoP due to Blade Flurry being broken which they then got nerfed. Maining a rogue during WoD it didn't matter if I had 3 dps specs to chose from during Highmaul it didn't matter which spec I chose since they were all mid pack at best.

The only exception to the rule of classes being bad at times are mages... Mages are traditionally always the top or near the top at almost every level during every expansion. If you want a safe guaranteed raid spot just piss off every other class and roll a mage. They have great utility, are ranged, as well as always being top DPS (with warlocks sometimes taking that spot) and they don't look to be changing from this at all.

And as to the Ret Paladin comment I made. Yes you very frequently see a ret paladin in guilds even at high level. Maybe not world first level but ret paladins are very frequently included in a lot of high end top guilds. Millions of people don't play at a world first pushing level so I doubt you don't need to worry about that. They've never been #SitFeral2016 status. They have great burst and do well on target swaps as well as having a mix of ST and AoE damage so they're versatile if not the best ever. Similar to Shadow Priests. Might not be the best class in the world but they're still there although you'll never see a guild stacking Rets or Shadow Priests but A LOT of high end guilds still bring them for progression content. If they were as terrible as you're making them seem you'd hardly ever see them on progression content similar to how you never see Ferals.

[Deleted]

Why are you assuming the quality would be lowered? I don't understand this. It is easily achievable to have 3 specs that are unique and flavorful. How many ranged leather agility classes do we have in the game right now? It's something that I'd like to see. Also haveing one dps sepc you will most certainly go through entire tiers of being garbage and being op just like Spriests have been the entire game. I doubt anyone playing a DH would like to be treated like a Spriest in raids. Oh hey man can you just tank? We don't need your trash Havoc spec.

I'm not assuming , its historical fact of warcraft. The points in which all 3 specs of a class are in similar strength are very few and mostly only for a short time.

I agree that a ranged leather agi class would be nice but that doesnt fit the demon hunter. Maybe with the next addon we get the dark ranger that fits that role ?

I find the shadowpriest comparison a bit lacking , since alot of the problems from the shadow priest are often related to the offhealing they supply. Or atleast that is blizzards excuse for not making them as strong.Demon Hunter only offers damage so far , which means thats the only thing blizzard needs for focus on to make the spec viable. (for now)
Yes, if the damage of havoc is terrible , you have no second choice to fall back on. But that can also be true if you have 2 damage specs.
Personally I'd rather trust that blizzard is able to balance the single DPS option DHs have properly , then using it as an arguemnt to add in a second spec because it MIGHT be bad and then you MIGHT be screwed.

[Deleted]

I have been playing and raiding rogue since Vanilla Molten Core and I will switch my main to Demon Hunter because it has only two specs.
Why ? Because I am sick and tired of the bullshit DPS niche design that is used for pure DPS classes. This design is no less than a pure tax : no better DPS than a hybrid class in addition to the constraint of having to switch spec each time a fight requires ST, cleave or AOE.

Right now, the rogue class is a mess. Assassination and Sub could have been merged to provide something really interesting and adding a tanking spec to the class or just leaving it with a slow weapon spec and a dagger spec with much more options for both archetypes but the design team is artificially maintaing two distinct dagger specs when a true Assassin should be subtle and jumping out of shadows to murder its target and poison it to be sure it will not survive... Pirats are just a joke, especially compared to the initial design of the combat spec which was a master of weapon handling (dagger, sword, mace, axe masters and tanky options in the talent tree). This pirat change does not match the RP side of my rogue character and then just makes me sick.

As for Demon Hunters, I also really like the design of the spells and talent tree for now. I think the design team made a very good job at this level so far. Congratulation to them.

[Xirrohon]

Hoping that they are very strong Tanks and weak DPS. We need more Tanks in the game. Melee are a dime a dozen and less preferred than range.

- - - Updated - - -

You literally make zero sense.

What doesnt make sense? Besides BM being pretty strong Monks have been pretty weak since they were launched into the game. WW was strong in 2s and they are doing ok in 3s right now but thats about it.

[Funky Kong]

3 specs made sense in vanilla with the original classes. Now that there's more classes there's no reason to aim for an arbitrary spec number. DH is limited in a very niche fantasy, so to have a ranged spec they'd need to stray from the established DH identity since warcraft 3, just to appease min maxers.

[BL4KH4T]

I know mercy was a joke, but honestly i would've like a new healer class. but i do understand that revamping all the other classes was rough

[BurningBurns]

As much as I love the current specs, and I love how much Havoc feels true to the class fantasy, I would absolutely LOVE a ranged spec based off of Alari Souleater, (I think that's her name). The female demon hunter with the sycthe that drains the souls from demons. I know it would be tough to make enough abilities, but I would absolutely love it.

[Buttonmasher]

I thought Demon Hunters (at least for Illidan) were originally mages? Isn't possible that a 3rd spec could have been a ranged DPS spec launching blue fire spells and the like?

[Deleted]

I would have liked to see a ranged spec, as Melee is already cluttered and with a bit of creativity it should be doable to get one in there!

[shimerra]

I would have liked to see a ranged spec, as Melee is already cluttered and with a bit of creativity it should be doable to get one in there!

No. 10chars

[Varlak]

I would have liked to see a ranged spec, as Melee is already cluttered and with a bit of creativity it should be doable to get one in there!

As much as I'd also like it warlocks would be pissed.

But next class will surely be ranged.

[Deleted]

As much as I'd also like it warlocks would be pissed.

But next class will surely be ranged.

Why would they be pissed? And if so, who cares? >