[Pre-Beta] Havoc Discussion

[Orloth]

Couple quick questions about it that I've noticed that I can't quite understand:

First, you have in the Demon Blades cell double multiplier from Haste, since it's already being multiplied by modified attack speed in there is there a reason you've got it scaling up again? I spent a bit of time trying to work out why it's there but couldn't come up with a reason to double scale haste for Demon Blades.

Second, your point-per-percent when calculating the stat weights across the sheet seem off for 110, did you calculate it off level 108 costs?

Demon Blades is treated as a separate damage source, that is not dependent on auto-attacks (it just uses the same Auto-attack time figure to calculate), so I don't *think* it double dips from Haste, but will look at it closely to be sure.

And yeah, I had old values for those stats, thanks for the new ones, will correct.

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Just fixed, ratio stays the same.

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I'll look at trying to model Haste a bit more accurately (what scales and what doesn't) and see if that changes the results dramatically. Give me a bit...

[wordup]

Demon Blades is treated as a separate damage source, that is not dependent on auto-attacks (it just uses the same Auto-attack time figure to calculate), so I don't *think* it double dips from Haste, but will look at it closely to be sure.

My question on that more is that in the cell it is double dipping at the moment, was wondering if that was intended?

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I'll look at trying to model Haste a bit more accurately (what scales and what doesn't) and see if that changes the results dramatically. Give me a bit...

I can PM you access to the sheet I've been using (once you can wade through all the references to Enhancement talents in there :P ) but I'd imagine you'd find similar issues just flipped on the other side with a different model

[Orloth]

Which cell? In M14 I have it scaling off of Haste once, Crit once, and Vers once.

[Rtrain]

Which cell? In M14 I have it scaling off of Haste once, Crit once, and Vers once.

=((25/(2.6/(1+B4)))*(1+B4)*M9)*M12

is what he is referring too(M13) fury gained.

[Orloth]

Nah, attempting to be particular on where Haste actually has an effect just winds up throwing the whole thing off by too much to be accurate. My math is not strong enough for this.

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=((25/(2.6/(1+B4)))*(1+B4)*M9)*M12

is what he is referring too(M13) fury gained.

Ah, you're right. Fixed now.

That might account for why my DB builds were so high in damage, but doesn't seem to affect the scaling value for Haste by much.

[Rtrain]

Nah, attempting to be particular on where Haste actually has an effect just winds up throwing the whole thing off by too much to be accurate. My math is not strong enough for this.

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Ah, you're right. Fixed now.

That might account for why my DB builds were so high in damage, but doesn't seem to affect the scaling value for Haste by much.

Clearly, we're modeling something incorrectly. You and Wordup are clearly more proficient at this then I am, but it's clear there is some discrepancy.

[Orloth]

Nah, attempting to be particular on where Haste actually has an effect just winds up throwing the whole thing off by too much to be accurate. My math is not strong enough for this.

Attempt #2 seems to stay in the right ballpark, but actually increases the value of Haste rather then decreasing it. May just be for this build.

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@Rtrain: Yeah, this is complicated stuff. One little thing being off can throw everything sideways, or it could just be drop in the ocean.

[Rtrain]

Attempt #2 seems to stay in the right ballpark, but actually increases the value of Haste rather then decreasing it. May just be for this build.

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@Rtrain: Yeah, this is complicated stuff. One little thing being off can throw everything sideways, or it could just be drop in the ocean.

ooc how are you calculating your stat weights(theyre manual in the spreadsheet)

nm, i see now.

[Orloth]

All pages except the first are exactly the same but for having exactly 1 Rating more of a stat (and as much fallout from that as I can figure for, like getting slightly more CSs and Annihilations for Crit). It takes the same info entered on Page 1 and computes the DPS based on that stat difference. It then takes the difference for the box on the front.

[Deleted]

Which class currently in the game is the most similar to Demon Hunter atm? I'm thinking of maining a Demon Hunter in legion but I've only mained a healer (Paladin) and a Mage before so I feel like playing a similar class on the side to get used to Melee mechanics. PVE please.

[Rtrain]

Which class currently in the game is the most similar to Demon Hunter atm? I'm thinking of maining a Demon Hunter in legion but I've only mained a healer (Paladin) and a Mage before so I feel like playing a similar class on the side to get used to Melee mechanics. PVE please.

Demon Hunter is different enough from anything that comparing to any class doesn't do it justice. The very core of the class is most similar to combat rogue, however. Playing any melee class, especially a spammy one will give a good feel of what playing melee is like, however.

[Warstar]

Demon Hunter is different enough from anything that comparing to any class doesn't do it justice. The very core of the class is most similar to combat rogue, however. Playing any melee class, especially a spammy one will give a good feel of what playing melee is like, however.

Not like a combat rogue at all. There's literally nothing about a DH that is like a rogue outside of build/spend but that's more of a WoW as a whole game play lately.

It's kind of similar to a WW monk.

Build with Jab/Demon's Bite
Spend with BoK/Chaos Strike
Spend on CD with RSK/BD
Longer duration rotational AoE ability with Fists of Fury/Eye Beam.

Demonic adds a type of play style similar to Colossus Smash where you want to fit as many abilities into a short buff window as possible.

AoE DH are kind of different from anyone atm.

[wordup]

Which class currently in the game is the most similar to Demon Hunter atm? I'm thinking of maining a Demon Hunter in legion but I've only mained a healer (Paladin) and a Mage before so I feel like playing a similar class on the side to get used to Melee mechanics. PVE please.

It's really I'd say impossible to give a direct comparison to any spec on live atm.

That's mostly because having a free-form Build/Spend with no direct passive gen to manage hasn't been done before for melee (though it's not the only spec that has it in some form in Legion) so you're going to really struggle finding a spec that plays like it. It's quite intensive in terms of how spammy the spec is to keep up, and is quite dynamic.

[Rtrain]

Not like a combat rogue at all. There's literally nothing about a DH that is like a rogue outside of build/spend but that's more of a WoW as a whole game play lately.

It's kind of similar to a WW monk.

Build with Jab/Demon's Bite
Spend with BoK/Chaos Strike
Spend on CD with RSK/BD
Longer duration rotational AoE ability with Fists of Fury/Eye Beam.

Demonic adds a type of play style similar to Colossus Smash where you want to fit as many abilities into a short buff window as possible.

AoE DH are kind of different from anyone atm.

Ss/jab/demon bites and evis/bok/cs are all close enough ;/. The spec feels like combat to me at its core. But like I said nothing is a fair comparison. (I choose combat over ww because I've played combat more and it felt faster pace to me)

Basically what wordup said, I'd suggest playing a basic build/spend class to get a feel of the playstyle, but their really isn't anything like it.

[Orloth]

I'd actually say Fury Warrior, especially with the Unquenchable Thirst talent: It's a very builder/spender playstyle, it's also highly mobile, you're going to have a handful of short cooldowns to manage, and you'll get used to watching for buffs that empower your spending (Enrage / Demonic or Momentum).

[Keltas]

That doesn't talk about actual ratings that you need just what their plan is for how characters are going to scale from the first tier of the expansion to the last. Instead of starting out like a bunch of nerds larping with cardboard swords and ending up as Superman by comparison it's going to have a much smoother flow from start to finish and the gains from heroic dungeons to BiS end game gear wont jump up as much as they have previously but rather at a slower increase.

It does talk about actual ratings. Second to last post in the thread. They give specific ratings at 110. At least, specific ratings for last build which seem to still check out.

"We're still tweaking the exact rating conversions and coefficients to get the desired effect. It's already changed a bit since that build was made (rating conversions will be 275/300/300/350 in the next build, instead of the 227/250/250/295 they are in the current alpha).
"

[wordup]

"We're still tweaking the exact rating conversions and coefficients to get the desired effect. It's already changed a bit since that build was made (rating conversions will be 275/300/300/350 in the next build, instead of the 227/250/250/295 they are in the current alpha)."

They're not currently 227/250/250/295; they only get that conversion if you do it at 108. I think that is where the confusion came from with the sheet there, at least on my part.

[Keltas]

They're not currently 227/250/250/295; they only get that conversion if you do it at 108. I think that is where the confusion came from with the sheet there, at least on my part.

Again, that was last build, this build it is those 300/300 listed.

Second post from the bottom in that thread.

[Deleted]

to all you guys (orloth and the rest of the mathwonders) kudo's to all the calculations. However I am getting a bit lost there.
From what I see is haste the way to go for all specs?

I am sure in the end when numbers are tweaked we will get a better
overview and posts from what best spec to go (and for which boss etc).

Little suggestion I was thinking off. I am trying the momentum build (played a lot of the demonic build and loving it but need
to get more out of all specs). Perhaps I missed it. But for some bosses (mainly the small hitbox issue) and to counter the
animation cancelling (which I don't like, feels like cheating) it might be a sollution to stack the time buff to a max of 8 secs.
I think some classes have this allready where you can extend the buff. Or at least something that way. That gives us a bit
of more margin. Perhaps there needs to be some tweaks to the other talents cause I don't think the idea is to have it up
for 100% of the time.

[Orloth]

Momentum is currently nowhere near 100% uptime. I think in most of my models it's at 60% (in a build that fully supports it).

That said: Yes it would make things easier if the buff could be stacked like that, BUT short duration buffs like Momentum are best used in conjunction with hard hitting Resource (Fury) Spenders. So, if you stack your buff you'll be able to fit in some Spenders, but then will have to start building again before the buff falls off. If instead, you carefully time Momentum around when you'll be spending Fury, you'll see much better results.

I don't mind the possibility existing for the buff to be extended, but the optimal way to use it will likely still be to not.

And yes, Haste is currently the way to go by *my* math. Wordup has said that he's getting different results. Until someone starts setting up some Simcrafting, that's probably the best answer we can give. BUT, the balance pass has still not happened, and stat weights (especially Mastery which is abysmally low) can and probably will change.