The State of WoW

[Deleted]

Mythic isn't hard. Get the fuck over it. Tired of people thinking that having to tolerate 20 other individuals somehow equates to difficulty of the game itself.

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I boiled it down to, "Blizzard can do no wrong and the community is shit." As usual. Basically the line Blizzard itself often likes to tow because it's own zealots will readily do the same.

What do you want? Design everything according to what you want? Too hard, people get fustrated and endup quiting. Too easy, people get bored. Like Cougar said. Blizzard started listening to players and look where we are now. Blizzard is at fault for many things but the community isn’t innocent either has become let’s say "worse" over time.

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

What do you want? Design everything according to what you want? Too hard, people get fustrated and endup quiting. Too easy, people get bored. Like Cougar said. Blizzard started listening to players and look where we are now. Blizzard is at fault for many things but the community isn’t innocent either has become let’s say "worse" over time.

The community is the same as it's always been the problem is they didn't stick with their core philosophies and their base. They didn't get to twelve million by putting in Facebook games and throwing any and all difficulty into one facet of the game that the super majority don't even want to touch due to the logistics of it all. They could've evolved and gone forward, adding things on the side, yadda-yadda.

Where they screwed up is by assuming that you're either a hyper-casual or a hardcore raider with little in between which clearly, going by the numbers, do not make up the majority. Not even remotely close.

All they have to do, again, is make dungeons relevant. Get rid of 20-mans entirely or evolve them into another facet of the game much like FFXIV did with large group content so that logistics don't get in the way of clearing the core content so much. Try to have non-raiding and non-dungeon content out in the world versus consolidated to garrisons or a similar feature.

There is a lot of things they can do very readily to improve the game going forward. Part of that is simply getting back to basics and then taking some obvious observations and applying them to the end-game content to make it more accessible. Not by toning down difficulty but again the logistical hurdles then have a more fluid flow feeding into said content in a properly tiered fashion.

That's one thing I really do enjoy about FFXIV. Hate to constantly make the comparison but both are very reminiscent of one another. I can do an LFR, large-group raid once a week for gear and materials. I can do bonus dungeons every day for gear and materials. Everything tiers and builds into the next and as it goes along they begin to almost work in unison to create variety but all leading towards the same end result.

The fact that these things are time-gated doesn't even quite phase me because the content is actually fun and I can do several different things within a given day that is worth my time for multiple reasons.

It also wouldn't hurt to make the newest leveling content actually have some teeth. Like enemies and traps that would challenge you out in the world. I hardly even remember what I did or killed in WoD it was all such a fast, pointless blur. Could even make world PvP more intriguing as a result. I was pretty disappointed when all their talk about a "savage" Draenor ended up being nothing but fluff.

They've got options and even examples to pull from but their answer time and time again seems to be a unanimous dumbing down of the game. Not just in difficulty but also within context and richness.

[Catblob]

I boiled it down to, "Blizzard can do no wrong and the community is shit," as usual. Basically the line Blizzard itself often likes to tow because it's own zealots will readily do the same.

...or you could try to realize that setting difficulty is a delicate balancing act that is effectively impossible to do, especially given the wide variety of players that make up the WoW player base. They've tried making the game 'hard', and ended up alienating a considerable number of players in the process. Blizzard has previously revealed that the majority of people that start playing WoW end up quitting before level 20, citing that the game is too difficult to understand. $15 a month is a pretty heavy price to pay for frustration, and so why would Blizzard create an experience that frustrates a player in his/her first month of playing the game?

The guy argued we have no REAL data to assess and yet we do. The only reason Blizzard is at all seemingly remotely interested in listening is because they've LOST millions in a very short span of time. There isn't enough spinning the ravenous fans can apply here to completely erase that fact.

The only 'data' we have is a subscriber number with zero context behind it; anything beyond the actual number is an assumption that is being made based on preexisting biases. When people quit the game, there could be any number of reasons that they're doing so.

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

...or you could try to realize that setting difficulty is a delicate balancing act that is effectively impossible to do, especially given the wide variety of players that make up the WoW player base. They've tried making the game 'hard', and ended up alienating a considerable number of players in the process. Blizzard has previously revealed that the majority of people that start playing WoW end up quitting before level 20, citing that the game is too difficult to understand. $15 a month is a pretty heavy price to pay for frustration, and so why would Blizzard create an experience that frustrates a player in his/her first month of playing the game?



The only 'data' we have is a subscriber number with zero context behind it; anything beyond the actual number is an assumption that is being made based on preexisting biases. When people quit the game, there could be any number of reasons that they're doing so.

The time frame is also a factor that you seem to conveniently ignore.

They quit because the expansion is unabashedly shit. It's that simple. Maybe their reasons differ on varying levels but I've already told you the core issues. Until they resolve those, you aren't going to get those pre-drop numbers back or anything remotely close. In fact, you'll likely keep bleeding down until you have a niche group remaining behind.

As for the difficulty, more is better than less in most instances. Less is the killer. Very few actually jump up for joy when they find out they're basically just being given their shit. It's how you present the more that matters. Wildstar learned that the hard way.

[SoulSoBreezy]

The community is the same as it's always been the problem is they didn't stick with their core philosophies and their base. They didn't get to twelve million by putting in Facebook games and throwing any and all difficulty into one facet of the game that the super majority don't even want to touch due to the logistics of it all. They could've evolved and gone forward, adding things on the side, yadda-yadda.

Where they screwed up is by assuming that you're either a hyper-casual or a hardcore raider with little in between which clearly, going by the numbers, do not make up the majority. Not even remotely close.

All they have to do, again, is make dungeons relevant. Get rid of 20-mans entirely or evolve them into another facet of the game much like FFXIV did with large group content so that logistics don't get in the way of clearing the core content so much. Try to have non-raiding and non-dungeon content out in the world versus consolidated to garrisons or a similar feature.

There is a lot of things they can do very readily to improve the game going forward. Part of that is simply getting back to basics and then taking some obvious observations and applying them to the end-game content to make it more accessible. Not by toning down difficulty but again the logistical hurdles then have a more fluid flow feeding into said content in a properly tiered fashion.

That's one thing I really do enjoy about FFXIV. Hate to constantly make the comparison but both are very reminiscent of one another. I can do an LFR, large-group raid once a week for gear and materials. I can do bonus dungeons every day for gear and materials. Everything tiers and builds into the next and as it goes along they begin to almost work in unison to create variety but all leading towards the same end result.

The fact that these things are time-gated doesn't even quite phase me because the content is actually fun and I can do several different things within a given day that is worth my time for multiple reasons.

It also wouldn't hurt to make the newest leveling content actually have some teeth. Like enemies and traps that would challenge you out in the world. I hardly even remember what I did or killed in WoD it was all such a fast, pointless blur. Could even make world PvP more intriguing as a result. I was pretty disappointed when all their talk about a "savage" Draenor ended up being nothing but fluff.

They've got options and even examples to pull from but their answer time and time again seems to be a unanimous dumbing down of the game. Not just in difficulty but also within context and richness.

Again, FB games. Don't get it.
You're off your rocker if you feel so strongly that the community hasn't changed. We've aged, got new jobs, had kids or grandkids and died.
If you're really arguing for dungeons to be more relevant, why critique WoD? What input do you have for Legion so far?

I can do an LFR, large-group raid once a week for gear and materials. I can do bonus dungeons every day for gear and materials. Everything tiers and builds into the next and as it goes along they begin to almost work in unison to create variety but all leading towards the same end result.
The fact that these things are time-gated doesn't even quite phase me because the content is actually fun and I can do several different things within a given day that is worth my time for multiple reasons.

So you like FFXIV. We get it. Funny enough though, if you read the above without context, it's WoW! =)

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They quit because the expansion is unabashedly shit. It's that simple. Maybe their reasons differ on varying levels but I've already told you the core issues. Until they resolve those, you aren't going to get those pre-drop numbers back or anything remotely close. In fact, you'll likely keep bleeding down until you have a niche group remaining behind.

Is this so bad in the "long game" of things? MMOs are still a niche market into itself, with WoW being an outlier that brought in the mainstream market. And they're going away.
We don't see the 100+ million players who have ever played wow spread throughout all other MMO games.

[nikolbolas]

I have a word for the people that have suddenly showed up in force with essentially the same lines being espoused but... I'll be nice and keep it to myself.

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You aren't going to have twenty "mates" to clear content with. Do you realize how much drama and bullshit goes on in these larger guilds?

Also, it might be my opinion, but it doesn't change that I see it as fact and so do a lot of other people. Either Blizzard sees it similarly or they're not going to even retain what they have currently. We can argue semantics all day but your defense would only bring this game further down, not keep it pieced together.

WotLK was the height of WoW. Look how far removed from that we are today and even worse, look at the direction we're going. Garrisons alone was one massive alarming feature that consumed much of the expansion on its own. Not only are we regressing in given areas but what changes or advancements are occurring are being done so into questionable territory.

Garrisons is, in fact, a perfect exemplification of the modern phone and Facebook games craze. To make such a core facet of WoW be carried by this feature was eye-opening to say the least. I'm shocked they're even considering keeping a SHRED of it within Legion as even that much has many Youtubers already pausing with uncertainty.

No guild is drama free, none. It is the nature of the beast to have people disagree with each other, so when i say with mates, i mean, i rather raid with the same 20 people day in and day out, with a common goal in mind and not with 30 random people only looking out for their own personal gain, aka, LFR/PUG/randoms. Granted a lot of raiders bounce guilds for one or more reasons, but this has been the nature of high end raiding since day 1, nothing new here.

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

Again, FB games. Don't get it.
You're off your rocker if you feel so strongly that the community hasn't changed. We've aged, got new jobs, had kids or grandkids and died.
If you're really arguing for dungeons to be more relevant, why critique WoD? What input do you have for Legion so far?



So you like FFXIV. We get it.

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Is this so bad in the "long game" of things? MMOs are still a niche market into itself, with WoW being an outlier that brought in the mainstream market. And they're going away.
We don't see the 100+ million players who have ever played wow spread throughout all other MMO games.

We've aged? I don't like where the game has gone. Friends that have family, college, etc... they don't like where it is gone. When they got too busy to play in the past, they just simply took a break from it until time opened up. The irony here is one of the things I am advocating is a reduction of logistical requirements for raiding which WOULD save people a lot of time and effort but no one wants to seem to address it.

Upping the difficulty in some parts or adding alternative(or multiple) paths for progression isn't some radical idea that's going to disenfranchise... I 'unno, the crippled and disabled? You act like WoW has been so hard comparatively or something and even WotLK was fairly relaxed in a lot of respects. Maybe you just shouldn't be playing these types of games to begin with rather than dragging down everyone else's enjoyment? Ever consider that? I don't know why we should gut the game, time and time again, just to appease you - the minority, which is exactly what you are.

This isn't a representative democracy. The majority rules here. It is democracy absolute. The only problem is, rather than voting we have to speak up and it's hard to do so when we get drowned out by the people that screamed bloody murder over how the dungeons in Cataclysm actually introduced some level of difficulty. They were still piss easy really and most people liked them! Problem was, most, didn't scream loudly enough or just weren't aware of what was going on. I was completely caught off guard by the reduction myself.

[Blufossa]

Oh and here I was believing ffxiv was a fps. On a somewhat serious note I have no idea what you want the weeaboo glasses refer to the absurd levels of praise it receives by posters like the op. I seriously have no idea what you need to take to perceive that game as some sort of revelation.

I'm with you on this cFortyfive. I've played FF14ARR and it was just.... horrible. Pretty but horrible.

I loved WildStar, but the end game left me very very sad (I am not a hardcore raider). GW2 is still somewhat palatable with WvW/EotM. ESO was good but I don't like having to pay for DLCs constantly. SWTOR was alright but very scripted and kinda bland.

To each their own, but I still enjoy WoW (since Nov 2004). There's nothing wrong with it but those bored of it but won't leave (looking at you OP).

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

No guild is drama free, none. It is the nature of the beast to have people disagree with each other, so when i say with mates, i mean, i rather raid with the same 20 people day in and day out, with a common goal in mind and not with 30 random people only looking out for their own personal gain, aka, LFR/PUG/randoms. Granted a lot of raiders bounce guilds for one or more reasons, but this has been the nature of high end raiding since day 1, nothing new here.

Why not raid with 10 or even 5? Why do you need such a high number to feel anything? You could arguably make more difficult content on smaller numbers and you could actually play with your friends versus a bunch of people you could care less if they died tomorrow. I've had to drift from guild to guild with my group because we never could find a stable, sensible organization. It would've been a thousand times better just to play with them!

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I'm with you on this cFortyfive. I've played FF14ARR and it was just.... horrible. Pretty but horrible.

I loved WildStar, but the end game left me very very sad (I am not a hardcore raider). GW2 is still somewhat palatable with WvW/EotM. ESO was good but I don't like having to pay for DLCs constantly. SWTOR was alright but very scripted and kinda bland.

To each their own, but I still enjoy WoW (since Nov 2004). There's nothing wrong with it but those bored of it but won't leave (looking at you OP).

Did leave and there is plenty wrong with it; again, subs don't drop like they do so shortly after a launch because people simply got tired of the formula. That's ignoring the reality of just how bad WoD is.

[nikolbolas]

Maybe you just shouldn't be playing these types of games to begin with rather than dragging down everyone else's enjoyment? Ever consider that? I don't know why we should gut the game, time and time again, just to appease you - the minority, which is exactly what you are.

Yet this is exactly what youre advocating! You are essentially saying to: gut raiding when you say they should "rework" the 20 mans # (keep in mind raiding used to be 40 man than 25 and now is down to 20). Raiding has always been a tied to a BIG group of people "RAIDING" a specific zone. What do you want 10 man again? Everyone pissed and moaned back then when they split 25's and 10's as well. And yes when i say people i mean EVERYONE not only hardcore raiders.

You claim that raiding guilds are ruining this game, but keep in mind that the raiding community is the one that keeps logging in day in and out and doing all the stupid little tidbits that blizz shoves out, to have that extra "Edge" or get that extra achivement for whatever reason. Casual players may log in, do a dungeon, be a social butterfly, run some PVP, or whatever they have the time to do and be pleased with what they do.

You dont like the game, fine, stop playing, thats your prerogative. Want changes, post on the official feedback forums and hope that your ideas are taken in.

It's just a game.

[SoulSoBreezy]

We've aged? I don't like where the game has gone. Friends that have family, college, etc... they don't like where it is gone. When they got too busy to play in the past, they just simply took a break from it until time opened up. The irony here is one of the things I am advocating is a reduction of logistical requirements for raiding which WOULD save people a lot of time and effort but no one wants to seem to address it.

Upping the difficulty in some parts or adding alternative(or multiple) paths for progression isn't some radical idea that's going to disenfranchise... I 'unno, the crippled and disabled? You act like WoW has been so hard comparatively or something and even WotLK was fairly relaxed in a lot of respects. Maybe you just shouldn't be playing these types of games to begin with rather than dragging down everyone else's enjoyment? Ever consider that? I don't know why we should gut the game, time and time again, just to appease you - the minority, which is exactly what you are.

This isn't a representative democracy. The majority rules here. It is democracy absolute. The only problem is, rather than voting we have to speak up and it's hard to do so when we get drowned out by the people that screamed bloody murder over how the dungeons in Cataclysm actually introduced some level of difficulty. They were still piss easy really and most people liked them! Problem was, most, didn't scream loudly enough or just weren't aware of what was going on. I was completely caught off guard by the reduction myself.

Some players quit and came back. Some didn't. Regardless of the number of players you think you're speaking for, it's not all of them. According to this thread, it's clearly not all of them.
And...what? Dragging down? Gutting the game? Just who are you quoting?
And this isn't a democracy. At all. It's a forum. And...yeah I don't know who you're talking to anymore; I think you've lost yourself in your rage =D.

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

Yet this is exactly what youre advocating! You are essentially saying to: gut raiding when you say they should "rework" the 20 mans # (keep in mind raiding used to be 40 man than 25 and now is down to 20). Raiding has always been a tied to a BIG group of people "RAIDING" a specific zone. What do you want 10 man again? Everyone pissed and moaned back then when they split 25's and 10's as well. And yes when i say people i mean EVERYONE not only hardcore raiders.

You claim that raiding guilds are ruining this game, but keep in mind that the raiding community is the one that keeps logging in day in and out and doing all the stupid little tidbits that blizz shoves out, to have that extra "Edge" or get that extra achivement for whatever reason. Casual players may log in, do a dungeon, be a social butterfly, run some PVP, or whatever they have the time to do and be pleased with what they do.

You dont like the game, fine, stop playing, thats your prerogative. Want changes, post on the official feedback forums and hope that your ideas are taken in.

It's just a game.

Ignoring the rest of this post until you address my reaction to this.

...What?

I'm not talking about a removal of content, I'm talking about a removal of logistical requirements on a given portion of the content. It'd actually give more content to a broader swath of people as a result which was why I brought it up in the first place.

[Kuntantee]

I agree wholeheartedly, safe for game being expensive. It simply is not a concern for me. The only challenging content is Mythic raiding and the hardest part of Mythic raiding is actually finding a guild, at least for me. Considering I am a solo player for years now, at least they should make leveling 10, 15 times longer than current length and make questing harder. I also agree with obvious imagination/innovation problem. They couldn't come up with an alternative progression system/content than raids.

I think the problem is community buys the game. They will not change it as long as people are fine. Perhaps, we are the minority here.

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

Some players quit and came back. Some didn't. Regardless of the number of players you think you're speaking for, it's not all of them. According to this thread, it's clearly not all of them.
And...what? Dragging down? Gutting the game? Just who are you quoting?
And this isn't a democracy. At all. It's a forum. And...yeah I don't know who you're talking to anymore; I think you've lost yourself in your rage =D.

No, I feel like I'm talking to an old man that thinks any level of difficulty or effort is suddenly a wall put up there just for him and as a result believes it should just all be reduced to pointless rubbish.

You ought to go back and read through your own posts, that's really how you were coming across.

I'm speaking for myself, my friends, and a whole lot of other people who dropped this game because of just how bad WoD is. We're part of seven million now removed and counting. You don't get to this juncture in the road so readily without having fucked up. I know where they went wrong and I know that the majority now gone are largely gone for these reasons.

Sure some left for silly things like a lack of flying on one continent but they aren't even going to make up a fraction of the millions required to explain the exodus. Let's get real here.

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I agree wholeheartedly, safe for game being expensive. It simply is not a concern for me. The only challenging content is Mythic raiding and the hardest part of Mythic raiding is actually finding a guild, at least for me. Considering I am a solo player for years now, at least they should make leveling 10, 15 times longer than current length and make questing harder. I also agree with obvious imagination/innovation problem. They couldn't come up with an alternative progression system/content than raids.

I think the problem is community buys the game. They will not change it as long as people are fine. Perhaps, we are the minority here.

Unless they intend to become a dwindling niche on purpose, I highly doubt we're the minority. It is those that are still playing the game that are.

[Kuntantee]

@Kelliak
Even if they do not innovate, they should at least go back to TBC model. Remove all catch up mechanism, decrease the raid difficulty to 3 by removing LFR. Normal is FUCKING easy. I mean my ultra-casual guild almost oneshotted all first tier normals, safe for last boss of Highmaul. Keep Dungeons easy. Make leveling 10 times longer and I will be happy. Make professions 4-5 times harder to level. I want to feel an achievement when I maximize my professions...

So these are possible band-aids to the game which will extend its lifetime, imo. And for god's sake, remove flying.

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

@Kelliak
Even if they do not innovate, they should at least go back to TBC model. Remove all catch up mechanism, decrease the raid difficulty to 3 by removing LFR. Normal is FUCKING easy. I mean my ultra-casual guild almost oneshotted all first tier normals, safe for last boss of Highmaul. Keep Dungeons easy. Make leveling 10 times longer and I will be happy.

I don't know if I agree with that. TBC was a bit much. I think WotLK had more of a sweet spot to it but even then, I'm not advocating for a simple reset. I'd like to return somewhat to that old philosophy of currencies and dungeons actually mattering but all the same, I'd also like to see the game advance. I think having more paths of progression, more choices, and more accessible content through the removal of heavy-handed logistics would do a lot on its own.

We could have 30-man group content in the form of alliance raids where three guilds come together to take on an entirely new swath of content. Incorporate mechanics that requires each team to aid and support the other or the whole fails while also adding in some competitive elements betwixt them. Something with its own side story(not part of the main) and rewards for the prestige of your guild. I think that'd be just swell and give people who miss the huge raids something to look forward to.

Have the main raid and storied content 10 mans or less so that you get that full breadth of challenge and reward that the expansion's story offers. Then have the new alliance-styled, massive raids which offer up an entirely different side of the end-game for those who are eager to prove themselves as a guild and love big, flashy affairs.

But that's just me. According to several here I should just go jerk off in my garrison and collect pets because I'm simply an archaic fucking dinosaur out to turn the game into 'Dark Souls the MMO Experience'.

[SoulSoBreezy]

You ought to go back and read through your own posts, that's really how you were coming across.

Gotcha. Your presumption is incorrect.
OT: What was the logistical suggestion you had?

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

Gotcha. Your presumption is incorrect.
OT: What was the logistical suggestion you had?

Getting rid of 20-mans as they are and reducing the maximum size of raids to 10 or less, period, for all difficulties.

That said I also understand that a lot of people like those HUGE raid experiences and I mentioned in my post above how you might address that while still keeping the necessary body count required per guild to 10 and avoiding burying storied or difficult content underneath for everyone else.

[nikolbolas]

@Kelliak
You keep saying to remove the logistical requirement of a content. So, remove the 20 man from raiding? and how will it give more content to a broader swath of people as a result? They STILL have access to the content as it is right now! You've said it yourself, if you want to SEE IT, do LFR. Dungeons are there, they have even been bumped up to mythic category to help CATCH UP in gear, mildly more difficult (not really hard but a little more challenging).

If you want to raid mythic, you got to put in the time and the effort,Oh, but what? filling out an application to an actual end game guild is too much? again, its how its always been. If taking the time to fill an application is too much, doing everything else that includes raiding at the higher level of performance will also be too much for people like this.

Probably you have a hard time adjusting to other people, or probably are not tolerable to some of the subjects some might speak off over mumble or gchat, whatever. To each their own.

Getting rid of 20-mans as they are and reducing the maximum size of raids to 10 or less, period, for all difficulties.

And there it is again...its the same old song and dance...reducing mythic raiding will do absolutely NOTHING. People will still find it difficult, or not want to do it, or not have access to it for whatever reason. In the end the only group that suffers are the actual raiders and guilds having to gut down their rosters even more than what has already been done with the intro to 20 mans.

P.S.
20 mans actually feel good.

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

@Kelliak
You keep saying to remove the logistical requirement of a content. So, remove the 20 man from raiding? and how will it give more content to a broader swath of people as a result? They STILL have access to the content as it is right now! You've said it yourself, if you want to SEE IT, do LFR. Dungeons are there, they have even been bumped up to mythic category to help CATCH UP in gear, mildly more difficult (not really hard but a little more challenging).

If you want to raid mythic, you got to put in the time and the effort,Oh, but what? filling out an application to an actual end game guild is too much? again, its how its always been. If taking the time to fill an application is too much, doing everything else that includes raiding at the higher level of performance will also be too much for people like this.

Probably you have a hard time adjusting to other people, or probably are not tolerable to some of the subjects some might speak off over mumble or gchat, whatever. To each their own.

Nobody adjusts well to other people by force. Everyone has their conflicts and the larger the body, the more conflicts you'll have. It's easier to manage and keep a group together the smaller and more connected it is. Removing a 20-man requirement while retaining or even upping the difficulty in order to account for the loss of bodies wouldn't remove the content AT ALL. It'd actually open it up to more people who might have wanted the challenge but just cannot fathom getting 19 other souls together to manage it.

It's really nothing crazy nor difficult to understand. It's a solution to help content feel broader without actually adding anything nor dumbing it down. If you have a consistent 20-man team currently, you can break them up into two teams that run at their leisure from that point on. If you're a guild only capable of having 10 reliable people on then Mythic is now an option assuming you're geared/capable of taking on the increase in difficulty.