What would be better than setting item level requirement...

[Sylvaeres]

...for premade groups would be an option to check a box requiring "Must have passed Silver Proving Grounds" because it's BS that players can queue for mythic pugs (not talking about friends on their own) if they can't even qualify for heroics.

As a 725 tank, I can solo most dungeons even on mythic difficulty and whatever the group does is just to expedite the run for added convenience. I don't mind carrying a competent player looking to shortcut his gearing process; the only thing that really gripes me is a truly incompetent player who keeps pulling extra adds because they can't aim their AoE, or the healer who's really dps playing an off-spec they've never invested time in learning (i.e., when I'm out-healing the healer 2-1 and they can't keep themselves or dps alive, even though I solo the boss, what good are they?).

I know I would use this option often, even if I had to choose between setting this requirement and setting an item level. What about the rest of you?

Really? You think the solution is Silver Proving Grounds?

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Really? You think the solution is Silver Proving Grounds?

I don't think it's a perfect solution, but I think the players who can't pass it should wait until they can.

[ultramini]

Proving grounds is SHIT.
And I mean UTTER SHIT.

As a veteran player since TBC that has done all 3 PGs (minus tank gold because that AI is simply ridiculously frustrating) I can tell you with clean conscience that PG does not play anywhere close to how real PvE is played and it doesn't teach the player one thing.

In order to complete PG wave 30, one must have master 3 skill :

- Strategy acquisition : Find a way to defeat the first 10 waves with their spec/class.
- Consistency : Apply the newly acquire strategy for every repetitive waves while maintaining their focus and the same lvl of performance for 30 minutes.
- Optimization : optimize their movement, placement, rotations and CD usage in order to squish as much dps/heal/survivability to beat the increase in difficulty.

Soon you will notice that these 3 keys elements are what raiding is all about. Strategy acquisition, consistency and optimization and this no matter the raiding difficulty. It seems that PG is not complete uttershit after all..

[Granyala]

Soon you will notice that these 3 keys elements are what raiding is all about. Strategy acquisition, consistency and optimization and this no matter the raiding difficulty. It seems that PG is not complete uttershit after all..

For WF guilds that formulate tactics and for Officers/Raidleads maybe.

The average raider just does what the RL tells him to do and pushes his buttons while doing it -> boss down.

I have seen both sides. been a normal raider for years (really it's brain dead easy, even on Heroic/Mythic) and been an officer, analyzing logs and trying to come up with ways to make our raiders overcome a challenge.

Also, we weren't talking about Endless which hardly anyone bothers with. We were talking about the tank - gold challenge which is mainly "run away/kite as best you can" because the healer is way too shitty to heal you when you tank LIKE YOU WOULD BE SUPPOSED TO TANK IN A RAID / Dungeon.

Trust me, if I start derp-kiting the boss in a raid or Dungeon, EVERYONE will yell at me.

My point still stands: the way PG plays is not representative of how PvE is actually played in 5mans/raids. Thus it fails as a teaching tool.

[ultramini]

For WF guilds that formulate tactics and for Officers/Raidleads maybe.

The average raider just does what the RL tells him to do and pushes his buttons while doing it -> boss down.

I have seen both sides. been a normal raider for years (really it's brain dead easy, even on Heroic/Mythic) and been an officer, analyzing logs and trying to come up with ways to make our raiders overcome a challenge.

Also, we weren't talking about Endless which hardly anyone bothers with. We were talking about the tank - gold challenge which is mainly "run away/kite as best you can" because the healer is way too shitty to heal you when you tank LIKE YOU WOULD BE SUPPOSED TO TANK IN A RAID / Dungeon.

Trust me, if I start derp-kiting the boss in a raid or Dungeon, EVERYONE will yell at me.

My point still stands: the way PG plays is not representative of how PvE is actually played in 5mans/raids. Thus it fails as a teaching tool.

I bring endless example because it cover the consistency aspect of raiding which the lower difficulty don't. Bronze to gold only cover strategy and optimization up to a certain point.

You are also over exaggerating quite a lot. Gold tank PG don't require much kiting. A single leap or 2 is all that is needed to avoid fatal damage and complete gold. Some may not kite at all in this difficulty and survive just fine by utilizing their toolkit correctly.

Dungeons also don't require specific placement and are mostly trash pack, which require even less placement requirement. So doing a bit of kiting to prevent a tank death and a wipe is more than appreciate. You are a tank with a high mobility ? Well use it ! Standing still all day long and take everything in the face is not the way to tank, not at all ! Let's say you are a brewmaster and you are tanking challenge mode. Only a fool would not use roll, transcendence and dizzying haze to his advantage. It would put less stress on the healer and make the run overall easier. You are doing heroic hanz & franz ? Same thing apply. Use your mobility to drop your stacks of shattered instead of dying if there is no external CD available.

You don't want to kite all day long. You need to do it to avoid your death or when you can totality avoid a massive amount of damage without compromising the group/raid.

No one will yell at you for doing a smart move, stay alive and kill the damn trash pack/boss. Well...maybe the guy that didn't get his rank 1 on warcraft logs. But who cares about this guy anyway.

[Sylvaeres]

I don't think it's a perfect solution, but I think the players who can't pass it should wait until they can.

You would need a much higher level of skill. Silver can be done at fresh level 100 in quest items. It is in no way shape or form a measure of skill

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

You would need a much higher level of skill. Silver can be done at fresh level 100 in quest items. It is in no way shape or form a measure of skill

So not having them pass anything is better? I'm not arguing that passing PG makes you pro; I am arguing that being unable to pass means you need to invest more time in learning your toon before inflicting yourself on groups.

[Deleted]

Proving Grounds wave 50 to enter normal HFC/ mythic dungeons and wave 100 to enter Heroic, seems fair.

I've cleared mythic HFC and i havent done any proving ground shit what so ever above silver which i just did to queue for heroic dungeons for the legendary item, proving grounds is not a representative measurement for raiding performance because its the same 5-6 mechanics dealt with the same way just dragged out for a long time.

[Granyala]

You would need a much higher level of skill. Silver can be done at fresh level 100 in quest items. It is in no way shape or form a measure of skill

Well as a tank you at least need to use CDs, taunt and interrupt.

Taunt is rather irrelevant for HC dungeons, since no one ever gets aggro anyway. Interrupt.. apparently people take it off their bars after finishing PG silver.
CDs... no clue. Doesn't feel like most tanks use them.

Oh BTW: I just dragged my friend through, because he couldn't do silver PG. He had no issues tanking dungeons in other expansions w/o the PG bullshit.

You are doing heroic hanz & franz ? Same thing apply. Use your mobility to drop your stacks of shattered instead of dying if there is no external CD available.

That would only be viable during the automated stomp phase, moving the boss around during that phase would prolong that one though, which is the last thing most raids want.
If you start derprunning during the other phases you will activate platforms prematurely and most likely wipe your raid.

[ultramini]

Well as a tank you at least need to use CDs, taunt and interrupt.

Taunt is rather irrelevant for HC dungeons, since no one ever gets aggro anyway. Interrupt.. apparently people take it off their bars after finishing PG silver.
CDs... no clue. Doesn't feel like most tanks use them.

Oh BTW: I just dragged my friend through, because he couldn't do silver PG. He had no issues tanking dungeons in other expansions w/o the PG bullshit.


That would only be viable during the automated stomp phase, moving the boss around during that phase would prolong that one though, which is the last thing most raids want.
If you start derprunning during the other phases you will activate platforms prematurely and most likely wipe your raid.

It's the same for every role. You need a proper usage of CD usage and interrupt. Tank PG isn't more difficult than dps or heal.Any competent tank would faceroll PG silver. If your friend can't complete silver, he is clearly lacking some tanking skill.

Do you expect him to do a smooth heroic grimrail depot run at 615 ilvl at WOD release without a overgear group when he can't manage to stay alive in PG silver or keep aggro? Obviously no, this is why blizzard put this barrier.

A non recoverable tank death will most certainly lead to a guarantee wipe. Over-extending a phase for a handful of seconds to stay alive will certainly not.

[Granyala]

It's the same for every role. You need a proper usage of CD usage and interrupt. Tank PG isn't more difficult than dps or heal.Any competent tank would faceroll PG silver. If your friend can't complete silver, he is clearly lacking some tanking skill.

Nope. What he lacked was the willingness to deal with the waves again and again just because he failed at wave 6 or 7.
I told him 'don't stress out, I'll do it for you, I know it's shit".

If Blizzard designed it in a way that you could start with the wave you failed in, he would have pushed through.

Do you expect him to do a smooth heroic grimrail depot run at 615 ilvl at WOD release without a overgear group when he can't manage to stay alive in PG silver or keep aggro? Obviously no, this is why blizzard put this barrier.

Absolutely, because he would assign CCs to the dangerous mobs, like he is used to from back in the days of old.
I do think he would struggle with the second boss a bit, but nearly every tank I encountered does so.

[ultramini]

Nope. What he lacked was the willingness to deal with the waves again and again just because he failed at wave 6 or 7.
I told him 'don't stress out, I'll do it for you, I know it's shit".

If Blizzard designed it in a way that you could start with the wave you failed in, he would have pushed through.


Absolutely, because he would assign CCs to the dangerous mobs, like he is used to from back in the days of old.
I do think he would struggle with the second boss a bit, but nearly every tank I encountered does so.

Lets be honest here... This is what pve is all about : try and wipe until the boss goes down. A player that doesn't have the willingness to complete silver PG (8 minutes) doesn't have the willingness to do any kind of raiding outside of LFR.

There is no excuse to not completing PG silver, none. If a player can't complete it, no matter what his excuse might be, he is lacking some serious gameplay in his spec/class.There is no shame in that, just have to admit it and practice until he succeed, which will make him a better tank. Nevertheless, there is no way that someone who can't complete silver will be able to make a quick and smooth heroic run. No fucking way. He will have to be surround by people far better than him to ever make that happen. With 5 people of his caliber in the group, this cannot be accomplish.

That's why blizzard put ilvl and lvl requirement on dungeon. Simply because heroic can't be done with lvl 92 with 580ilvl. Same thing with a group fill with people that can't complete silver PG.

[Granyala]

Lets be honest here... This is what pve is all about : try and wipe until the boss goes down. A player that doesn't have the willingness to complete silver PG (8 minutes) doesn't have the willingness to do any kind of raiding outside of LFR.

Newsflash: PG silver wasn't used to gate raiding. It was used to gate HC 5mans, which was completely unnecessary and ridiculous.

My friend never had any interest in raiding. He knew he wasn't skilled enough, he knew he wasn't wipe resistant enough and he knew that his RL didn't allow for a schedule.

My friend played in dungeons no problem in TBC, Wrath, Cata, MoP and suddenly he is "too dumb" because he doesn't want to deal with the PG horseshit?
Yeah right.

Nevertheless, there is no way that someone who can't complete silver will be able to make a quick and smooth heroic run. No fucking way.

Mark CCs, faceroll for aggro while keeping CC intact -> win.
5man tanking in a nutshell.

It's not rocket science. It's not even remotely "hard" in any sense.
We were perfectly fine doing dungeons for 8+ years w/o some artificial solo play NPC AI blah trial. PG silver accomplished nothing.

[ultramini]

Newsflash: PG silver wasn't used to gate raiding. It was used to gate HC 5mans, which was completely unnecessary and ridiculous.

My friend never had any interest in raiding. He knew he wasn't skilled enough, he knew he wasn't wipe resistant enough and he knew that his RL didn't allow for a schedule.

My friend played in dungeons no problem in TBC, Wrath, Cata, MoP and suddenly he is "too dumb" because he doesn't want to deal with the PG horseshit?
Yeah right.


Mark CCs, faceroll for aggro while keeping CC intact -> win.
5man tanking in a nutshell.

It's not rocket science. It's not even remotely "hard" in any sense.
We were perfectly fine doing dungeons for 8+ years w/o some artificial solo play NPC AI blah trial. PG silver accomplished nothing.

Silver PG : A guarantee free 630 weapon upgrade, easy as fuck, take as much time to complete as a quest. It's not that he doesn't want to deal with it, it's rather that he isn't good enough to complete it within a reasonable amount of try.

What is the point of letting a player that isn't able to complete ''easy difficulty'' access to ''heroic difficulty'' ? He isn't able to complete easy...how is he going to even do heroic. There is no point of ruining the experience of 4 other people by letting a player that have no clue about his class and can't pull his weigh for this difficulty.

Heroic dungeons are tune too high for him...They are literally too hard for him, he will need to be carry. Normal is where he belong.

NPC heal and DPS is shit in PG ? Well...the NPC do more DPS and heal than players who aren't able to complete silver. How the fuck a healer who isn't able to complete silver, who does less heal than the NPC, will be able to maintain that squishy tank alive with mediocre dps to kill the adds/boss? CC, faceroll aggro ? bullshit ! The tank can't even tank 2-3 mobs, use interrupt, taunt and use a defensive CD which is all what PG silver is about. Wave 6 ? 2 mob, 1 taunt ! Wave 7 ? 3 mob, 1 defensive CD, 2 interrupt. No I'm sorry.... He isn't good enough to properly tank a heroic dungeon.

Sorry for being rude but you said it yourself, heroic aren't remotely hard. Despite that fact, that tank can't even complete an easier task. Cmon...the only way to let that player tank this is to carry him through.

[Granyala]

Silver PG : A guarantee free 630 weapon upgrade, easy as fuck, take as much time to complete as a quest. It's not that he doesn't want to deal with it, it's rather that he isn't good enough to complete it within a reasonable amount of try.

Sorry for being rude but you said it yourself, heroic aren't remotely hard. Despite that fact, that tank can't even complete an easier task. Cmon...the only way to let that player tank this is to carry him through.

He tried 5 times and got fed up with doing the waves he already did again and again.
I can't blame him. I hate the wave character of PG as well and it is one of the reasons why I don't give a flying fuck about them past silver.

In dungeons, if you fail on a critical trash pull, you do that critical pull again. Not the whole trash of the whole goddamn dungeon.

BTW: in a typical HC dungeon scenario, you need neither taunts nor interrupts. Sure they are beneficial and definitely ease healing but this isn't 4.0 anymore. 95% of all tanks I heal never interrupt and don't bother to taunt because stuff dies fast anyway.

Imho PG silver is a lot more difficult than what happens in any heroic dungeon. Why? because you have to do everything yourself and are severely limited.
In dungeons you can have DPS take care of interrupts, you can CC stuff that is dangerous until the other mobs are down, you have focus damage, quickly eliminating the priority targets, so you don't have to fret that you'll run out of cooldowns and the healer can't heal against the damage unless you start derp kiting. You can do LoS pulls to position casters to where YOU want them to be....

Sorry but the statement "if you can't complete silver PG you can't tank a HC 5man" is simply false because dungeons work differently compared to this artificial "challenge".

No matter how much you rage at me, it won't change the truth.

PS: just as an example: How many randoms did you see die to the thunder storm of the Arakkoa trash in Needle? TONS. But players REFUSE to CC them. It makes both groups ridiculously trivial, yet players want to ERMAGAWD AE FACEROLL everything instead of using the tools at their disposal.

[ultramini]

BTW: in a typical HC dungeon scenario, you need neither taunts nor interrupts. Sure they are beneficial and definitely ease healing but this isn't 4.0 anymore. 95% of all tanks I heal never interrupt and don't bother to taunt because stuff dies fast anyway.

Imho PG silver is a lot more difficult than what happens in any heroic dungeon. Why? because you have to do everything yourself and are severely limited.
In dungeons you can have DPS take care of interrupts, you can CC stuff that is dangerous until the other mobs are down, you have focus damage, quickly eliminating the priority targets, so you don't have to fret that you'll run out of cooldowns and the healer can't heal against the damage unless you start derp kiting. You can do LoS pulls to position casters to where YOU want them to be....

Stuff won't die fast and there will not be any CC, interrupts or priority target because the DPS in your group were not able to pass silver proving ground either. A group full of players that can't pass silver proving ground were not able to complete a heroic dungeon at wod release with 615-620 group average ilvl.

This isn't an opinion, this is a fact. This is why blizzard put these minimal requirement. All of them need to be carry by players much better than them to be able to complete the dungeon.

Of course, now a player can solo the entire dungeon from start to finish so that will obviously not be an issue with + 120 ilvl even if all the player in the group can't pass bronze.

[Granyala]

Whatever. It's pointless to argue with you.

I played 4 expansions and 8+ years w/o such BS and never had more trouble in dungeons than now.

PG didn't solve a thing. It merely gives the people yet one more thing to discriminate about.

[Tommi]

Whatever happened to playing a game for fun?

[Granyala]

Fun has been proven to be inefficient. We can't have that.

(Disclaimer: The above may contain sarcasm)

[Granyala]

Well thankfully it is done in a few minutes.

But yeah: I bet they make us do it again in Legion. lol.

Update:
Just for kicks though: Currently trying to do PG gold on my holy priest.

It's virtually impossible. That tank takes so much damage, that he drops even when I spam flash heal. 90% of the time he gets the bleed debuff and no matter what I spam, forget getting this panda retard back over 90% HP.

It's fucking ridiculous how hard it is.
I did PG gold on my Resto Shaman the moment she dinged 100 w/o giving a second thought.
Yet as a Holy priest with item level 708, I still stand here going oom in wave 6 because EVERYTHING takes such ridiculous amounts of damage.

LOL. Just LOL at Blizzards inability to balance content properly.

And people really want to make this shit mandatory for entering content? Shit that some classes cheese through while watching netflix while other classes try for hours and only get rewarded by failure?