Legion: What do you think soo far?

[Deleted]

Hello there,
i was wondering what do you think about Legion changes for rogue soo far. I personaly pretty much hate them all.

Combat (Outlaw): Very close to what combat used to be, but still feel dumbed down (removal of bandits guile - yes i actualy liked that), at this moment, it feels that there isnt anything going on with that spec

Assasination: Feels almost unchanged, and people seems to like it, which is wierd since it was considered as one of most boring specs to play overall.

Subtlety: This was maybe best spec of them all. But now it is just dead to me. I cannot think of worse idea them making dance completely RNG based, when there isnt anything going on with that spec outside of it, no energy regen, no way to do some proper dmg. Enveloping shadows idea is cool tho.

And lastly almost all talents feel completely uninspired and boring.

Could you post your feelings same way, soo i will know where i stand.
Thanks

[Todesbote]

I have the same feelings. Played my rogue since 2005. This is coming purely from a PvE Mythic progression raiding view.

I had a couple of issues with the class in WoD and my hopes and dreams were that they would address those issues in Legion. Now those dreams have turned into nightmares as they have completly ruined Subtlety and I regret even mentioning those issues in the first place as they seem insignificant now. All I wanted was a nerf of Blade Flurry or for them to give Blade Flurry to all 3 specs. Blade Flurry is what makes us have a mandatory Combat spec and forces us to collect 4 weapons in my opinion. I hate it. The other thing I wanted was for Backstab to finally be treated the same way as Shred (dev quote: "positional requirements are not fun"). They didn't change any of that.

The only reason people are relieved that Assassination feels almost unchanged is that literally everything else they touched about our class has turned to complete shit. Take a look at Subtlety Artifact: active ability is a joke, Shadow Nova is shit, everything is still based on the concept of a passive Shadow Dance and has not been touched since. Do they expect us to just forget about that like they obviously did?

All in all I have to admit that I had high hopes when they admitted that Legion Subtlety 1.0 with passive Shadow Dance didn't work and they seemed to listen to feedback and start a dialogue with us. Can't say those hopes are still there. They obviously don't care anymore and I have come to terms with not playing Subtlety in Legion.

Let's just pray they don't touch Assassination much more and make that shit too. Btw. the only thing they could have changed with Assassination is Vendetta. It seems like a horribly outdated and shitty CD. But please if all you can do is turn stuff to shit don't even touch Vendetta, I'll take it, thank you.

[Deleted]

I can't really say that I'm exited or outraging disappointed. I have no alpha key, and I won't finally judge the spec by just looking at other ppl playing it. This said, I'm kind of disappointed to be honest. When they said that they gonna overhaul rogue I was expecting so much more then just name changes for "outlaw", making assassination a full dot spec (no big change really), and fucking up Sub (don't care for that spec this much, im more of a fun-gaming casual now).

The talents are just boring, and the more they add RNG, the more my head turns read. I don't mean to say remove the RNG, but the less the better, and Roll the Bones really just fucks me up. Also, the lvl 100 talents are supposed to be THE talents. They feel boring in every single spec.

As I said thats no final judgement. I have to play/feel the spec to really say something about it, but right now im just underwhelmed.

Okay now to what op also wanted:

Outlaw: Seems like old school rogue (which i liked) but also a lillte "meh". Roll the Bones is just my personal RNG Nightmare.

Assassination: I like this spec a lot since MoP, so no big changes is okay with me, but again "meh". I expected more. The try to give us better AoE is nice though.

Sub: Not such a big fan of the live version, but I know a lot of us like it a lot. I didn't really follow the changes but its seems dumbing down is the thing they wanted to do here. (Also: the weapon looks ugly as fuck)

[Skayaq]

I wouldn't say I'm disappointed because the changes we got is pretty much on the level I expected, but I'm not exactly happy.

Assassination: Considering how important poisons are supposed to be for the spec, I really wish they would have changed them to be a little more interactive than a 3 sec cast every hour. Which could have also have made the rotation a little more interesting because right now it is probably the most boring one of any spec.

Outlaw: Essential it's a rebranded Combat, but without the annoying Bandit's Guile and some flashier animations. For me it's good they at least tried to give Combat a little more identity, but from what I have seen the execution falls a little short and it doesn't look that engaging to play.

I haven't played sub in a while, and I have no strong feelings one way or the other about the changes to it.

[jtstormrage]

[PVE] For me, there are two problems at the moment: very poor gameplay, and low damage. They need to fix both.

The current state of Rogue gameplay is terrible. Baking all Sub damage into trinket procs, is completely RNG and very bad gameplay. Combat is a joke unless there is burst AOE (e.g. Iskar) and Assassination is too low damage and bad at switches and has slow ramp up, weak AOE and no burst.

Overall damage is also too low unless you tunnel boss, except for some fights like Iskar and Reaver which are short and there is a lot of burst. In terms of overall output, compared to Warriors and Mages, we have been a joke this entire expansion. We still have utility and some burst though (which I will not hide).

In all honesty, however, damage is more important. If you have low damage, you will be demoralised at best and benched at worst. If the gameplay is bad but damage is consistent and good, I am ok with it. At the moment Rogue gameplay is not enjoyable at all, is RNG, inflexible i.e. you only do good damage if you tunnel and don't do raid mechanics, which some Rogues do) and even then is inconsistent. However, having low damage as well is really hard to accept.

As to Legion, they need to help us with both bad gameplay and low damage. If they make Rogues less reliable on trinkets and RNG, then I will be much happier. Sub on Alpha causes me concern, as it is so RNG at the moment. Assassination gameplay also causes me concerns because it looks like a spec that can tunnel boss and do good single target, but will be terrible at switches (with the 50% poison and ramp-up due to having to put bleeds on target). Outlaw has potential but the damage needs to be right, like it was in SOO.

Low damage can be helped by simply increasing numbers but we need to lobby Blizzard on this. Rogue damage was a joke in most of WOD and this needs to change. Just because Blizzard can increase Rogue numbers does not mean they will.

[Todesbote]

You know this thread is not about the current state but Legion, right?

Off-topic: Subtlety is not that RNG right now. You always get a Soul Cap proc at the start of combat where you should use everything + ring and go crazy. Sure sometimes you get more Soul Cap procs and sometimes less but Arcane Mages are way more RNG than us. I don't know your raid group but I'm constantly competing with our Mages for #1 single target dps on most of the fights in HFC. Maybe you should consider some guides.

Also I don't understand your statements about Legion Alpha. What exactly is "so RNG at the moment"?

I disagree with Rogue damage being a joke in WoD. Yes, we sucked in Highmaul due to the lack of multistrike gear but in BRF and HFC rogues were perfectly fine imo.

Btw. I don't think that "damage" is an issue right now in Legion. There has not been a lot of balancing yet. The issue is making the 3 specs feel fun and interesting to play.

[jtstormrage]

I will not derail the thread into a discussion about output now. I do not agree with you. I am happy to discuss by PM if you would like.

In Legion, Shadow Dance gains stacks through a proc chance. That is RNG. I also agree with the OP that positional requirements should be removed. I have not liked Backstab since Cata when it had extra crit chance through talents and we had two piece Firelands tier.

Assassin requires slow stacking poison with huge ramp up time, plus 2-3 bleeds to get to max output. It takes about 20 seconds to get there. This is the slowest ramp-up I know of for any Rogue spec, in 7 years playing Rogue.

Outlaw feels slow and clunky, but Combat was always like that in first tier of any expansion. However, as a spec it has the most depth in my view.

[Deleted]

As i mentioned above, i care only about your Legion impressions, soo if you want to talk about current state, do so just in comparisson to Legion state of rogue class.

And actual dmg you do in Legion, doesnt really matter that much as numbers can be easily tweaked, but playstyle cannot. Soo if class will do loads of dmg, but will be boring as hell, i simply wont play it. I dont play games to get bored. And yes, some1 might like just to do alot of dmg, and that might be the fun part for him, but im not like that.
@Todesbote: I agree with your vendetta thing. That CD needs to go. During Dragon soul days, we had set bonus increasing duration of vendetta, to like 43 seconds or soo. Yes, it was great dmg buff, but in made us literally unable to ever swtich to adds.... ever. And this is what i think about this CD ever since. Its duration needs to be reduced, together with CD, or it needs to be removed completely.

Speaking of talents, i checked couple moments ago, what talents each spec gets, and i must say, that made me even more angry, since talents for most other classes/specs, atleast look interesting. Most interesting talent rogues have is already mentioned Envelping shadows and Marked for death, and maybe Death from above, if they make it work, and make sure we wont loose soo many autoattacks, outside those, rest is rather shitty.

[elfporn]

I will not derail the thread into a discussion about output now. I do not agree with you. I am happy to discuss by PM if you would like.

In Legion, Shadow Dance gains stacks through a proc chance. That is RNG. I also agree with the OP that positional requirements should be removed. I have not liked Backstab since Cata when it had extra crit chance through talents and we had two piece Firelands tier.

Assassin requires slow stacking poison with huge ramp up time, plus 2-3 bleeds to get to max output. It takes about 20 seconds to get there. This is the slowest ramp-up I know of for any Rogue spec, in 7 years playing Rogue.

Outlaw feels slow and clunky, but Combat was always like that in first tier of any expansion. However, as a spec it has the most depth in my view.

Actually, in legion, rogue begins with 3 stacks, as they are used they go on cooldown, however, each finisher has a 5% chance per combo point to reset one stack.

This is not merely rng, it's a chance to gain reset a stack that is on cooldown. The stacks of SD continue resetting even if you don't get and deepening shadows procs.

I'd also like to note that it seems like people are underestimating how much stealth uptime we will have as sub....

Assassination has a ramp up time for agonizing poison, instant application for garrote, and the normal 11year old 5cp application of rupture. How do you get 20 seconds for ramp up? It would be good to know from someone able to test thoroughly. Also, agonizing poison is a talent.

[Mafic]

Hello there,
i was wondering what do you think about Legion changes for rogue soo far. I personaly pretty much hate them all.

Combat (Outlaw): Very close to what combat used to be, but still feel dumbed down (removal of bandits guile - yes i actualy liked that), at this moment, it feels that there isnt anything going on with that spec

Assasination: Feels almost unchanged, and people seems to like it, which is wierd since it was considered as one of most boring specs to play overall.

Subtlety: This was maybe best spec of them all. But now it is just dead to me. I cannot think of worse idea them making dance completely RNG based, when there isnt anything going on with that spec outside of it, no energy regen, no way to do some proper dmg. Enveloping shadows idea is cool tho.

And lastly almost all talents feel completely uninspired and boring.

Could you post your feelings same way, soo i will know where i stand.
Thanks

People like Assassination the most because it is the least changed. All the other changes they make don't improve the specs but takes them down a notch in terms of fun factor.

Outlaw at the moment is going to come down to fishing for True Bearing procs. Sub is going to be about managed Shadow Dance charges and SoD.

Overall, this is a repeat of MoP 5.0. Don't expect to see major improvement to Rogue talent trees till patch 7.1 or patch 7.2

[Deleted]

Sometimes I really wonder which ppl at bliss are responsible for the rogue overhaul.

Then I wonder again if it is just some strange ppl here that don't like the changes or if the others just simply don't care.

It is indeed very hard to balance between new, old, fun, rewarding, etc. but as I read (mostly here) most ppl just don't like the changes at all.
What is the general tone in the alpha rogue forums? is it more about "pls go on we like it", "hell no what the heck are you doing to us" or part of both?

[Mafic]

Sometimes I really wonder which ppl at bliss are responsible for the rogue overhaul.

Then I wonder again if it is just some strange ppl here that don't like the changes or if the others just simply don't care.

It is indeed very hard to balance between new, old, fun, rewarding, etc. but as I read (mostly here) most ppl just don't like the changes at all.
What is the general tone in the alpha rogue forums? is it more about "pls go on we like it", "hell no what the heck are you doing to us" or part of both?

The tone on the alpha forums is that the talents across the board don't feel meaningful for Rogues. I think objectively and subjectively that is 100% on the mark and has been true since the MoP beta. Other than Leeching Poison/Elusivness/Cheat Death on live client you don't change your talents all that much for specific situations.

The alpha forums have lots of buzz for other classes not so much for Rogues as the pop for Rogue mains is really low and the changes have been very conservative and marginal.

[Deleted]

The tone on the alpha forums is that the talents across the board don't feel meaningful for Rogues. I think objectively and subjectively that is 100% on the mark and has been true since the MoP beta. Other than Leeching Poison/Elusivness/Cheat Death on live client you don't change your talents all that much for specific situations.

The alpha forums have lots of buzz for other classes not so much for Rogues as the pop for Rogue mains is really low and the changes have been very conservative and marginal.

But that can't just be it ... " Because we are not a large pack of ppl maining a rogue, we have no voice ..."

There where changes that we wanted, like removing gerona from assa proc and stuff. Why won't they see that rogues have a large amount of gameplay problems right now.
In the current state we could need an complete overhaul of talents and some abilities, and all they do is tweak numbers change tooltips and add another roll to the most RNG-finisher ever that is a pain in the ... you know what I mean.

We are concerned about vendetta for so damn long ... I imagine some blizz-dev turning around covering his ears with his hands and start whistling just to pretend they don't hear us.

There has to be some way to talk to them, we have so much ideas, some are good, some are bad. But just do something, WE CARE. That is what blizzard has to understand.

Best example are Ret-Pallys: They hated wake of Ashes for their Ashbringer, because it didn't fit fantasy and was just bad. They changed it completely in this build.

[lolpve]

Legion looks like absolute dogshit. There is literally nothing about it that motivates me to buy the expansion which is odd since blizzard usually are good at hyping (lying) their products.

[Mafic]

But that can't just be it ... " Because we are not a large pack of ppl maining a rogue, we have no voice ..."

There where changes that we wanted, like removing gerona from assa proc and stuff. Why won't they see that rogues have a large amount of gameplay problems right now.
In the current state we could need an complete overhaul of talents and some abilities, and all they do is tweak numbers change tooltips and add another roll to the most RNG-finisher ever that is a pain in the ... you know what I mean.

We are concerned about vendetta for so damn long ... I imagine some blizz-dev turning around covering his ears with his hands and start whistling just to pretend they don't hear us.

There has to be some way to talk to them, we have so much ideas, some are good, some are bad. But just do something, WE CARE. That is what blizzard has to understand.

Best example are Ret-Pallys: They hated wake of Ashes for their Ashbringer, because it didn't fit fantasy and was just bad. They changed it completely in this build.

Well you have to be vocal for changes to happen. Blizz assumes everything is okay if not enough feedback is received. And if it is the same pool of players providing such feedback they also assume that there are other players that like the way things are despite not posting feedback on the alpha forums.

I have a feeling that once Preach does another run through of the Rogue specs in one of his upcoming videos he is going to come down hard on Outlaw (for the lack of changes and rotational synergy) while also questioning the Shadow Dance bar changes for Sub. Maybe then Blizzard will start to noticedit isn't a small pocket of disgruntled players but more of a wider issue. The last time Preach came down hard on Outlaw and called it a boring spec it led to subsequent changes (eg Roll the Bones baseline).

I think all three specs are going to be functional by live. I think Outlaw will be a fun spec if you liked BC Combat Rogue but the wild card is Roll the Bones making the game play swing from super frantic to super slow. Sub however is nothing like any Rogue spec we have seen and it really will be hard to gauge how it ends up with how they keep changing SoD.

But are they fun? That will be determined as time goes on.

[Tenjen]

Legion looks like absolute dogshit. There is literally nothing about it that motivates me to buy the expansion which is odd since blizzard usually are good at hyping (lying) their products.

Okay..... what does this have to do with the topic on hand? All your posts on the forums seem to consist of negative out of the blue contributions that have nothing to do with what is actually being discussed.

Anyway moving on.

No point in discussing damage at this point, that can be tweaked and is best left for last when we have standing dps cycles down.

IF some has an issue with the feel of a spec, list what the intended dps cycles are for single and multi target situations are and then explain how it feels compared to how it is on live or what blizz said it should be. Suggest potential improvements or atleast the places it is lacking. Simply saying "it sucks" isnt enough. I myself find the core setup for each spec to be quite fine, with some adjustments needed for the secondary activities we perform to maintain the cycle.

Other classes have done this properly and received proper adaptations.

[kalaratic]

0 reason to play a rogue in legion. can't blame them tho, gotta make ppl switch to demon hunters somehow

[ornichi]

very hyped, class hall looks promising after all, outlaw artifact with TF skin looks badass. Artifact quest lines look interesting too, especially infiltrating SW for Garona's daggers. Plus, hoping for rogues to finally have spec options instead of "sub-only" WoD.

[Deleted]

very hyped, class hall looks promising after all, outlaw artifact with TF skin looks badass. Artifact quest lines look interesting too, especially infiltrating SW for Garona's daggers. Plus, hoping for rogues to finally have spec options instead of "sub-only" WoD.

You gotta be kidding. You are actualy glad that they will kill off subtlety soo ppl wont play it, and will have FINNALY some choice to play other specs? Artifact quest takes 30 min of your time in that expansion, soo its quality doesnt really matter that much, when your spec is boring as hell.
Same goes for artifact skin, as most ppl play with camera zoomed out as much as possible, soo you cannot really see your weapon anyways (only difference was original Thunderfury due its effect).

But im glad that atleast some1 is actualy liking it, soo there might be atleast one rogue roaming Dalaran in Legion.

PS: Thank you guys for responding. But try to be little more specific about feeling about each spec. Saying something like: ,,i dont like it, i wont play it'' Doesnt realy say much to others.

[ornichi]

You gotta be kidding. You are actualy glad that they will kill off subtlety soo ppl wont play it, and will have FINNALY some choice to play other specs? Artifact quest takes 30 min of your time in that expansion, soo its quality doesnt really matter that much, when your spec is boring as hell.
Same goes for artifact skin, as most ppl play with camera zoomed out as much as possible, soo you cannot really see your weapon anyways (only difference was original Thunderfury due its effect).

But im glad that atleast some1 is actualy liking it, soo there might be atleast one rogue roaming Dalaran in Legion.

PS: Thank you guys for responding. But try to be little more specific about feeling about each spec. Saying something like: ,,i dont like it, i wont play it'' Doesnt realy say much to others.

I don't say i like their changes rotation-wise, but that's how all classes look now. Simplified. Look at DH, one of their mechanics requires them to jump in the fight to cast a spell midair.