Arms Legion Discussion

[Exotath]

It still replaces Defensive Stance, they just removed it from the spell info and added it to the talent tooltip.

Well.... that is some BS.

[Rorke]

I hate when they remove things and then put them back in the game as talents. It's like they're better off just removed from the game where at least there's something new to play with.

Defensive Stance should just be removed and DbTS should just be Arms only where it has a 30 second cd and 4 second duration.

[Bleaklord]

I hate when they remove things and then put them back in the game as talents. It's like they're better off just removed from the game where at least there's something new to play with.

Defensive Stance should just be removed and DbTS should just be Arms only where it has a 30 second cd and 4 second duration.

I like games where everything is a talent, makes for fun build options and load outs.
I don't like when games are so poorly balanced that every option becomes fluff and there's only 1 optimal build.

I honestly hate spell reflect, so i like the idea of not needing to use it, but if it becomes a 'must have' talent then i'll be pretty disgusted.

[Exotath]

I like games where everything is a talent, makes for fun build options and load outs.
I don't like when games are so poorly balanced that every option becomes fluff and there's only 1 optimal build.

I honestly hate spell reflect, so i like the idea of not needing to use it, but if it becomes a 'must have' talent then i'll be pretty disgusted.

Uhm.... it is a must have as like... always.

So you like having baseline spells removed and turn into talents? You are certainly the minority on that one.

I hate having spells that were baseline for several years/expansions, that are also very important to the class, suddenly converted to talents that limit your choice in talent selection. To me it screams "Hey we are out of new ideas."

[Caargon]

Uhm.... it is a must have as like... always.

Not necessarily. It's competing with rage machine, which for arms is just... all kinds of good. Less so for fury, for whom rage falls upon like manna from the heavens.

[Exotath]

Not necessarily. It's competing with rage machine, which for arms is just... all kinds of good. Less so for fury, for whom rage falls upon like manna from the heavens.

I guess that only furthers my point of it sucking to be a talent.

[Caargon]

I guess that only furthers my point of it sucking to be a talent.

How?

I don't like it either, but that's because it's a hard choice. That's a sign of a good design.

[Bleaklord]

Uhm.... it is a must have as like... always.

So you like having baseline spells removed and turn into talents? You are certainly the minority on that one.

I hate having spells that were baseline for several years/expansions, that are also very important to the class, suddenly converted to talents that limit your choice in talent selection. To me it screams "Hey we are out of new ideas."

If you're going to drop a significant amount of money for an expansion like a full priced game, it better play like an entirely new game. If it played the same as it did when I was a kid, I probably wouldn't play it anymore--and it certainly would be hard to justify pricing what is essentially dlc as a new game.

And my personal preference is to make multiple builds, serving specific functions...that being said I'm also fine with fewer baseline abilities, we don't NEED action bars with 30 things to press. I honestly find it counter-intuitive; you can only press one at a time anyway, so what good does it do? Fewer abilities with more importance makes for a better model, and I'm alright with blizzard simplifying and de-fluffing everything.
I recently started pushing arena rating and it's just stupid how much is going on at every given time, and the sheer amount of crap flying at you is unreal, and I feel like that's something blizzard has realized and is trying to cut down on.

This also fits my main dislike of spell reflect, being that there's often a thousand spells coming at you, it doesn't always reflect the thing you want it to. I'm just now realizing that it's been changed in the current beta to reflect spells for the duration, which changes my hatred of it. That being said, I wouldn't call it necessity just because it was once a baseline ability, and if it can be considered such then they have plenty of time to balance and re-organize the tree.

Also, I wouldn't say they've 'run out of ideas' so much as there just being too much. Like that one bluepost said, after years of adding and adding abilities, maybe it has become a bit too much. Many other games only give you 5-10 buttons and that makes a much smoother and accurate gameplay experience that is more accessible to new players and a broader audience. And arguing that less buttons makes for less skill is just a laughable argument so don't even go there.

[Kirbydude65]

Uhm.... it is a must have as like... always.

So you like having baseline spells removed and turn into talents? You are certainly the minority on that one.

I hate having spells that were baseline for several years/expansions, that are also very important to the class, suddenly converted to talents that limit your choice in talent selection. To me it screams "Hey we are out of new ideas."

Things change. The goal is to reset this arms race that classes have been having for multiple expansions, and needing new tools.

And to be honest, Spell Reflect is the perfect candidate for a PVP talent. It's an ability that largely doesn't have a place in PVE, but is crucial to the PVP kit of a Warrior. The last time Spell Reflect was relevant to me in PVE, was cheesing Dark Shamans in SoO.

[Jalopy]

I don't think you understand the repercussions of being pidgeonholed into a talent in PVP just because they decided to take it away from you and then give it back under false benevolence.

[Exotath]

How?

I don't like it either, but that's because it's a hard choice. That's a sign of a good design.

You are correct not so much as a point as a passioned opinion. I believe it is an un-needed change to the class and spell reflect should remain baseline. I will gladly have it as a talent over it being removed.

This also fits my main dislike of spell reflect, being that there's often a thousand spells coming at you, it doesn't always reflect the thing you want it to. I'm just now realizing that it's been changed in the current beta to reflect spells for the duration, which changes my hatred of it. That being said, I wouldn't call it necessity just because it was once a baseline ability, and if it can be considered such then they have plenty of time to balance and re-organize the tree.

Also, I wouldn't say they've 'run out of ideas' so much as there just being too much. Like that one bluepost said, after years of adding and adding abilities, maybe it has become a bit too much. Many other games only give you 5-10 buttons and that makes a much smoother and accurate gameplay experience that is more accessible to new players and a broader audience. And arguing that less buttons makes for less skill is just a laughable argument so don't even go there.

Responding to the relevant points to the discussion especially since I never said anything about button bloat. Which I don't think Warriors have as a problem.

What you are describing is what I think makes the ability great and impresses me by players skill when they pull off a spell reflect. Timing and Execution. The new change to reflect for the duration is a welcomed addition to the spell I do agree, but it also takes away the reward of timing and execution. If it remained the like the old and baseline I think I'd be equally happy as having the duration effect and baseline.

Things change. The goal is to reset this arms race that classes have been having for multiple expansions, and needing new tools. And to be honest, Spell Reflect is the perfect candidate for a PVP talent. It's an ability that largely doesn't have a place in PVE, but is crucial to the PVP kit of a Warrior. The last time Spell Reflect was relevant to me in PVE, was cheesing Dark Shamans in SoO.

I get things change and I like 90% of the arms warrior changes. But I think this one is bad.

[Yassy]

If you're going to drop a significant amount of money for an expansion like a full priced game, it better play like an entirely new game. If it played the same as it did when I was a kid, I probably wouldn't play it anymore--and it certainly would be hard to justify pricing what is essentially dlc as a new game.

And my personal preference is to make multiple builds, serving specific functions...that being said I'm also fine with fewer baseline abilities, we don't NEED action bars with 30 things to press. I honestly find it counter-intuitive; you can only press one at a time anyway, so what good does it do? Fewer abilities with more importance makes for a better model, and I'm alright with blizzard simplifying and de-fluffing everything.
I recently started pushing arena rating and it's just stupid how much is going on at every given time, and the sheer amount of crap flying at you is unreal, and I feel like that's something blizzard has realized and is trying to cut down on.

This also fits my main dislike of spell reflect, being that there's often a thousand spells coming at you, it doesn't always reflect the thing you want it to. I'm just now realizing that it's been changed in the current beta to reflect spells for the duration, which changes my hatred of it. That being said, I wouldn't call it necessity just because it was once a baseline ability, and if it can be considered such then they have plenty of time to balance and re-organize the tree.

Also, I wouldn't say they've 'run out of ideas' so much as there just being too much. Like that one bluepost said, after years of adding and adding abilities, maybe it has become a bit too much. Many other games only give you 5-10 buttons and that makes a much smoother and accurate gameplay experience that is more accessible to new players and a broader audience. And arguing that less buttons makes for less skill is just a laughable argument so don't even go there.

Ever played any sequel to any game ever? They don't play like an entirely new game. They play like an evolution of the original. Thats how expansions should feel. The class I play and the content I experience should play like an evolution. Case in point is Raiding, it is the only content that Blizzard has consistently evolved and progressed forward throughout WoW's history. Their Class design, their dungeon design, their World design has just consisted of arbitrary shaking up since Cataclysm. From Vanilla to BC and from BC to Wrath, every class I experienced felt like it was progressing in its design. Since then its been hit and miss and in many cases classes feel like they are regressing.

Multiple builds will never exist. They can not exist with such elementary class roles and static game play. Damage dealers do nothing but deal damage, Tanks do nothing but mitigate damage, healers do nothing but heal. This is incredibly evident with DPS classes where there are very few niches to play off of. Tanks at the very least can spec for damage. Healers are being focused more into a niche way of playing so they, like DPS classes, will have one way to play. It's funny, I hear this fewer abilities with more importance makes for a better model argument a lot. And even though I agree with it, there is no evidence that supports it. Wrath was the pinnacle of keybind bloat, ability bloat, with a talent tree that had 150+ talents. Yet it is still consistently considered the best period of WoW. Guild Wars 2 I read constant complaints about how classes feel shallow because they have so few abilities. One of the more popular MMO's, FF14, as far as I know has a large amount of abilities as well. So there is actually very little evidence that shows players want fewer more important abilities.

It's honestly not about it being a necessity. I know the guy you're responding to says so. But again, the problem is that this feels regressive. Classes dont need 3-4 new active abilities. As you said how about new builds. Instead of adding Spell Reflect as a talent, why not a talent that allows it to reflect all incoming spells for 1 second? They don't need to give Warriors 1 more gap closer, 1 more defensive, 1 more cd, 1 more damaging ability to further evolve the class. They could have implemented a talent path that furthered Gladiator spec. There are plenty of other options that could have been done that aren't removing a spell that players have had base line for a long time and re-implementing it as a "Choice".

They have run out of ideas. The way the last two expansions have felt in terms of design is like this - They take a class, put their abilities onto a piece of paper, throw them into a hat and shake up said hat. They then pull a number out of their ass that they decided is how many abilities they want classes to have, and pull out random pieces of paper and tag some buzz phrase like "Increased depth, decreased complexity" or "Illusion of choice" as their reasoning for the changes.


The bottom line is this. Class design doesnt feel progressive anymore. I don't feel like my Warrior has evolved at all. WoD Warrior felt staler than Vanilla. Legion looks like a breath of fresh air in comparison to WoD, but its at the cost of things like Intervene and Spell Reflect.

[Kirbydude65]

I don't think you understand the repercussions of being pidgeonholed into a talent in PVP just because they decided to take it away from you and then give it back under false benevolence.

I don't think you're pigeon-holed. You have the choice between disrupting your opponent, or generating more rage (I'm personally a fan of rage machine). The fact that you have to choose between the two is important. These talents aren't' supposed to be a, "Talent and forget" type of thing. You should feel forced to make a hard choice. That's the point of talents to begin with.

Also, "false benevolence" Really? Are they not allowed to experiment (it is an alpha), and are we not allowed to make the motions to disagree? Sure they screwed up in WoD, but they've made an honest attempt at having good communication with the player base this alpha cycle. Regardless of the fact if it's sincere or not (It is, cause they love this game as much as we do), we have a dialogue right now and that's a lot better than we've had in the last two years.

I get things change and I like 90% of the arms warrior changes. But I think this one is bad.

And that's ok. You're not going to like every change made. Like how I don't like every change that's been made so far Legion (Die by the Sword replacing Defensive Stance is dumb IMO). Likewise we as players aren't going to agree with everything. I think this fits the parameters and is the perfect ability for PVP Talents. Combined with the fact that Blizzard is trying to de-escalate this disruption/CC game in PVP, its once again makes sense that you'd have to give up something in exchange for something like Spell Reflect (in fact it's a more powerful spell reflect, as its every spell for 3 seconds, as opposed to the first one).

[Jalopy]

I don't think you're pigeon-holed. You have the choice between disrupting your opponent, or generating more rage (I'm personally a fan of rage machine). The fact that you have to choose between the two is important. These talents aren't' supposed to be a, "Talent and forget" type of thing. You should feel forced to make a hard choice. That's the point of talents to begin with.

Also, "false benevolence" Really? Are they not allowed to experiment (it is an alpha), and are we not allowed to make the motions to disagree? Sure they screwed up in WoD, but they've made an honest attempt at having good communication with the player base this alpha cycle. Regardless of the fact if it's sincere or not (It is, cause they love this game as much as we do), we have a dialogue right now and that's a lot better than we've had in the last two years.

Are you just defending the build design or do you actually PVP?

Because if you don't you don't actually realize spell reflect is a mandatory talent against pretty much any wizard cleave.

[Deleted]

I'm Sorry Yassy, but you obviously haven't pvped a lot. Spell Reflect if used correctly wins/turns games the spell it pretty useless if you just use it randomly on CD you save if for the Cyclone or the potential hoj/deep or Chaos bolt perhaps. It's one of those few abilties that determine great Warriors from mediocre once. As it currently looks in the Pvp tier it's a lot more noob friendly having said that it will still basically function the same, use it at the very last ½ second of the clone cast.

I just don't understand how you can not want abilties like these in the game that highers the skill cap of the class, your maybe fine with being a dull damage bot but i most certainly am not.

[Khelon]

Im surprised nobody mentioned that recklessness is no longer 100% to your special attacks, but 100% to everything. This will solve some rage issues since you will get 100% crit on 1-2 auto attacks maybe even 3 during bloodlust.

Regarding the reason for spell reflect being on the pvp talent tree:

PvE and PvP is not 100% separated and some abilities that have been placed on pvp tier (dark sim spell reflect and so on) was either useless in PvE or totally broken. CM is a good example for why Dark sim shouldnt be useable in pve, it doesnt require skill to know when the add is going to cast x ability, just practice so you will have it every single time. Human moves are not predictable, which is why it fits in PvP.

Obviously Blizzard could fix this pve issue by making all adds and bosses immune to spell reflects or dark sim, but thats too much work right?

Im pretty sure spell reflect will make its return as baseline eventually, just like taunt and IS.

[Archimtiros]

CS resets like this are bad enough on live, but by Odyn's molten pits is this frustrating.



(Granted this is without Exploit the Weakness.)

To be fair, if you have that short time remaining on CS you would probably rather pool rage over dropping another Slam. Upside is that due to no RPPM mechanics, getting that proc doesn't reduce your chance of getting a followup proc.

[Caargon]

I'm Sorry Yassy, but you obviously haven't pvped a lot. Spell Reflect if used correctly wins/turns games the spell it pretty useless if you just use it randomly on CD you save if for the Cyclone or the potential hoj/deep or Chaos bolt perhaps. It's one of those few abilties that determine great Warriors from mediocre once. As it currently looks in the Pvp tier it's a lot more noob friendly having said that it will still basically function the same, use it at the very last ½ second of the clone cast.

I just don't understand how you can not want abilties like these in the game that highers the skill cap of the class, your maybe fine with being a dull damage bot but i most certainly am not.

I wouldn't call it noob friendly. You're still going to hold it for the last possible moment so they don't just cancel cast on you. On the other hand it does mean you won't eat the chaos bolt you were trying to block because you got hit by a stray moonfire first.

[Kirbydude65]

Are you just defending the build design or do you actually PVP?

Because if you don't you don't actually realize spell reflect is a mandatory talent against pretty much any wizard cleave.

1.) You're assuming Wizard Cleave will still be a thing come Legion.

2.) I believe you're still able to switch talents before the match starts.

3.) The whole point of removing abilities and cutting back on class tools as a whole in the game, is that situational abilities like Spell Reflect don't feel mandatory to the class.

[Jalopy]

The fact you don't think casters will be viable (they never haven't been) basically just tells me you don't actually PVP and your opinion on the necessity of spell reflect is basically invalid.

You can't make it so spell reflect isn't needed for warriors. It's not a defensive cooldown that they can balance something else around, we have no other button comparatively to it that we can use to avoid CC, except arguably bladestorm which isn't even a direct comparison.