Legion - Assassination Discussion

[anothdae]

Can someone on the official forums point out that

1) Vendetta is the most boring burn ability in the game. Flat dmg % increases were supposed to be gone years ago.

2) 75 talents include 2 pvp talents.

3) 100 talents are so boring. A leveling ability. A very situation passive. Something that makes envenom hit harder every 20 seconds, but fundamentally dosen't change anything.

This spec needs more than it currently has.

[shaunika123]

Can someone on the official forums point out that

1) Vendetta is the most boring burn ability in the game. Flat dmg % increases were supposed to be gone years ago.

2) 75 talents include 2 pvp talents.

3) 100 talents are so boring. A leveling ability. A very situation passive. Something that makes envenom hit harder every 20 seconds, but fundamentally dosen't change anything.

This spec needs more than it currently has.

how is MfD a leveling ability? are you that clueless?:P
also a lot of talents are gonna be "pvp" talents since a lot of them are utility, assa rogue isnt exclusive to that. it's not pvp talent it just doesnt work on bosses.

[pixelated senpai]

Can someone on the official forums point out that

1) Vendetta is the most boring burn ability in the game. Flat dmg % increases were supposed to be gone years ago.

2) 75 talents include 2 pvp talents.

3) 100 talents are so boring. A leveling ability. A very situation passive. Something that makes envenom hit harder every 20 seconds, but fundamentally dosen't change anything.

This spec needs more than it currently has.

1) What would be an alternative?

2) One could argue that you could use them in pve just not all the time during raid, but outside of raid.

3) I do agree the lvl 100 talents for Sin seem pretty lackluster,DFA seems more like a outlaw ability imo if we're sticking to this fantasy mess. Something to play with bleed dmg would suit it more.

[anothdae]

it's not pvp talent it just doesnt work on bosses.

Yeah... that does kinda make it a pvp talent. That whole row is fairly useless on 90% of boss fights, and a dps loss (using CP for CC) on fights that actually have adds that the melee is targeting.

Same with MFD. Situationally useful on fights that have a reliable and constant add spawn that melee is targeting. That is very niche. Same with Venom rush... how many fights allow you to maintain poison on 3 targets without going out of your way to do it?

- - - Updated - - -

1) What would be an alternative?

Have it effect the rotation in any way. Like every other burst CD in the game. Have it add tons of haste or crit or add a proc or extend your dots or anything.

[shaunika123]

Yeah... that does kinda make it a pvp talent.

but we have that now and had them in MoP, it didnt change, there were and will be talent rows that focus on mainly things that arent just for fighting bosses, not every single talent has to be a dps increase.

[anothdae]

but we have that now and had them in MoP, it didnt change, there were and will be talent rows that focus on mainly things that arent just for fighting bosses, not every single talent has to be a dps increase.

True... but that is the entire point of the pvp talent tree... for pvp talents. Either way, my main complaints/worries about the rogue class are the abysmal lvl 100 talents, and the worst (from a design standpoint) burst ability in the game.

[Deleted]

How do you use kingsbane effectively? Do you have to swap to use poisoned knife or anything?

Rotation seems easy enough on live except for understanding that part. Also a lot of talents aren't that great.

Still I like how the spec plays.

[Geckoo]

Yeah... that does kinda make it a pvp talent. That whole row is fairly useless on 90% of boss fights, and a dps loss (using CP for CC) on fights that actually have adds that the melee is targeting.

Same with MFD. Situationally useful on fights that have a reliable and constant add spawn that melee is targeting. That is very niche. Same with Venom rush... how many fights allow you to maintain poison on 3 targets without going out of your way to do it?

Not every talent needs to be about raiding and boss fights, not everything nor everyone plays with min/max and boss fights in mind. It's good to have some variety even if we personally don't use those talents or don't get any benefit from them while raiding.

Although i do agree that there needs to be a valid choice in every row to cover as much game aspects as possible and that's the main problem the lvl75 talent row always had. But i never expected nor i expect them to give me a rotational ability in that row, while i still benefit from those talents every time i play solo doing daily quests, killing rares or even in dungeons AND still get some of the situational benefit in a few boss fights.

MfD is not a bad talent, even if the whole fight is a single target with no chance to reset the CD it's still a free finisher every minute. The main issue was having to compete with anticipation. The whole lvl100 row seems weak because we expect more game changing talents in that row, but the talents are not bad, just misplaced.

[maddnesskhaz]

Not every talent needs to be about raiding and boss fights, not everything nor everyone plays with min/max and boss fights in mind. It's good to have some variety even if we personally don't use those talents or don't get any benefit from them while raiding.

Although i do agree that there needs to be a valid choice in every row to cover as much game aspects as possible and that's the main problem the lvl75 talent row always had. But i never expected nor i expect them to give me a rotational ability in that row, while i still benefit from those talents every time i play solo doing daily quests, killing rares or even in dungeons AND still get some of the situational benefit in a few boss fights.

MfD is not a bad talent, even if the whole fight is a single target with no chance to reset the CD it's still a free finisher every minute. The main issue was having to compete with anticipation. The whole lvl100 row seems weak because we expect more game changing talents in that row, but the talents are not bad, just misplaced.

I agree generally that MfD isn't a bad talent, and a ST Patchwerk style fight is the worst kind of fight for MfD really, it's good for fights where you can get resets, same as Venom Rush will be good for Council style fights given FoK applies poisons and you can passively talent to spread bleeds for further energy regen.

DfA is really the only 'active' talent in the tier and I've always personally found it underwhelming.

The issue with Rogue talents - across all 3 specs - is we've always had cookie cutter builds that are best practice for PvE, given each spec has a niche it performs strongly in.

[Todesbote]

The issue with Rogue talents - across all 3 specs - is we've always had cookie cutter builds that are best practice for PvE, given each spec has a niche it performs strongly in.

...given our talents offer close to zero customization you mean. Looking at some of the other classes talent trees that allow Fury/Arms Warriors, Retribution Paladins, Warlocks, Mages to pick the best talent for the right situation (Single target / Cleave / AoE)? Why can't we have that?

Literally the only talent row I ever touch at the moment is switching between leeching poison for pre 6.0 solo content and cheat death. How fun.

[Willoughby]

Same with MFD. Situationally useful on fights that have a reliable and constant add spawn that melee is targeting. That is very niche.

It doesn't need to be constant. One reset every few minutes is enough to make it worthwhile. And melee doesn't have to be targeting it - it has a range and can be mouseover macroed. You can cast it on the voidfiends on Xhul for example and ranged killing them will give you a reset before the next imps spawn.

After WoD put CP on the Rogue, MfD really can't be considered a cumbersome niche talent anymore.

Same with Venom rush... how many fights allow you to maintain poison on 3 targets without going out of your way to do it?

Any add or council fight. Casting FoK on 3 targets doesn't require you to go out of your way.

[maddnesskhaz]

Blood Sweat is quite fun, imo.

[davesignal]

Were you able to get a good estimate of what the range on the spread mechanic is?

[Deleted]

The way development goes right now (not sure what to think of that):

Venom Rush is boring/not so good -> Okay we change it so that you gain 3 more energy every time your Wounds deal Dmg, BUT we will also lower its base energy regen by 3.

So that just means we got cut off by one 100 Talent ... nice.

[Deleted]

As far as I can see in the talent calculator only assassination has leeching poison, is this true?

[davesignal]

The way development goes right now (not sure what to think of that):

Venom Rush is boring/not so good -> Okay we change it so that you gain 3 more energy every time your Wounds deal Dmg, BUT we will also lower its base energy regen by 3.

So that just means we got cut off by one 100 Talent ... nice.

If they were planning on nerfing Venomous Wounds anyway, and there is absolutely zero reason to assume they were not planning on nerfing it, it still replaces a shitty talent with a better one. Old Venom Rush was an extra half-a-point of energy per second, which is pitiful.

[Skayaq]

Yes, it's true, only assassination have poisons at all in legion.

As for the Venom rush change, completely par for course, after all they can't spend too much time on rogue development when there are more important classes like warlock who needs a complete revamp every expansion.

[Todesbote]

Looking forward to test Blood Sweat. A little worrying that they buff Venom Rush (if it's even a buff - I'm not sure haven't tested how it works) instead of offering valuable choices that compete with Venom Rush. Let's be honest who picks Death from Above in raids anyways? Loss of control sucks so much. And Marked for Death isn't really that great in a fight without a lot of fast dying adds. Pressing a button once every minute isn't that fun. But instead of giving us meaningful choices they basically just give us one best option for all occasions and that kind of sucks.

I may be slightly biased but looking at some other classes I can't shake the feeling that all 3 Rogue talent trees are lacking meaningful decisions and customization. They are simply the worst.

[Wow]

So over all these builds they've done nothing but shit anything people liked about the assassination changes nice.....

[Coffeh]

So over all these builds they've done nothing but shit anything people liked about the assassination changes nice.....

They've done that with a number of specs. Their first iteration comes out and people love it, and little by little, patch by patch, they turn it into garbage. Except druids. For whatever reason Blizzard loves druids. FFS, ferals now have an instant aoe 1800% attack damage, 3 charge talent. But let's nerf assassination's bleed spreading potential! Makes perfect sense.