[MARKSMANSHIP]Legion Alpha Discussion

[Tharkkun]

Tuning for what? LW it is +35% DMG OVERALL not only for 2-3 spell, get the difference? Even with tuning is overall BETTER than TA, doesnt make sense to discuss. It is even better due to the fact that you dont have to tunnel vision the mob for stacking buff, you can actually switch target w/o moaning "oh god another stacking V_V"

We can discuss HOW TA could be reworked in something usefull and maybe, i dare to say....FUN? rather than juggling stacking buff with a duration of 2sec.

You're forgetting how a numbers pass hasn't been done at all. Blizzard tossed most of these abilities in with something that sounded good but not broken until they get to that point in beta. We're supposed to test how viable and/or fun these talents are while imagining the damage is the same.

[Brocksley]

Im really interested in going MM for pvp in Legion but it feels like the utility that a pet brings would be too much to give up for the extra damage.
I guess ill have to wait and see what happens...

All the good utility was removed though, so really it's not that big of a deal. Keeping a target in combat will be the only benefit left, right? Which is something, but not the end of the world, in my thinking.

[Bepples]

Them making MM pet spec again shows that they failed at class fantasy for hunter. There is hardly any conceptial difference between MM and BM in Legion. Both have pets, both have range attacks. How its different then WoD?

Because you are massively over-simplifying and the two specs have an entirely different set of abilities, just like every wannabe class designer who thinks homogenization is actually a serious issue (including Celestalon himself).

[mindw0rk]

Because you are massively over-simplifying and the two specs have an entirely different set of abilities, just like every wannabe class designer who thinks homogenization is actually a serious issue (including Celestalon himself).

BM and MM in WoD also had diferent abilities. Supposed difference in class fantasy in Legion was that BM would be pet range class, Surv would be pet melee class, and MM would be petless range class. As a wannabie class theorycrafter you failed to understand this

[Garfurion]

BM and MM in WoD also had diferent abilities. Supposed difference in class fantasy in Legion was that BM would be pet range class, Surv would be pet melee class, and MM would be petless range class. As a wannabie class theorycrafter you failed to understand this

In Legion they will have also have different focus regen mechanics which makes the playstyles more different. BM regens focus over time mostly through DireBeast or through their pet (DireFrenzy) while MM has instant cast focus regen.

BM in Legion also has much more emphasis on their pet(s) then in WoD. MM's rotation in Legion focuses on Aimed and Marked shot a playstyle which BM doesn't have.

[threads]

For what it's worth, I was one of those that wanted there to be a choice for mm to have a pet given that pets have been a core part of the class for all of the game (the reason I chose it, in fact). That being said, I think having lone wolf baseline and using a talent to get the pet back rather than vice versa would be fine. I think you guys underestimate how many people chose the class for pets and how important they are to a lot of us. The joke in my guild is that they only let me come to raid and the only reason we win is because of my pet (and I'm the raid leader). The other hunter is very interested in his pets as well, refusing to name the ones he brings purely for utility because his character doesn't have them in rp. We're not a mythic guild due to being too small, but we do finish all of heroic, so I think there are probably a lot of true casuals that the pet matters to a lot, hence the change.

I'd be all for you guys not having to talent into lw, but I'm very glad pets are a possibility again. Since we're talking about class fantasy, not spec fantasy, there should be unifying features. Pets are one of the sensible ones for hunters (and traps, I'm very bitter about the loss of my main cc, but that's another topic).

every post about pets is so overdramatic holy shit. there was still 2/3 specs with a pet.

[Deleted]

I for one completely agree with the one that said MM class fantasy has now failed.

Why was the spec overhauled (read: ruined) in the first place, if the class fantasy will essentially be the same as before?

In Warlords it's a mobile Marksman with an optional pet and instants and executes. In Legion it's an immobile Marksman with an optional pet and slow cast time spells and no executes. I'm sure the Hunter community is very thankful for this major change for the worse.

[Huggykaze]

every post about pets is so overdramatic holy shit. there was still 2/3 specs with a pet.

Because Hunters befriend animals! They hunt them, but not to eat, skin or sell them! They hunt them to be their friends... Poor, lonely souls

[Appelgren]

Because Hunters befriend animals! They hunt them, but not to eat, skin or sell them! They hunt them to be their friends... Poor, lonely souls

One might even call them... Lone Wolfs....

[Youn]

So, looking at the new talent choices to me it appears we really will only ever change level 60 and 100. At least raiding wise.

T15 - Lonewolf
T30 - Trick shot
T45 - Farstriding
T60 - Careful Aiming or Patient Sniper (whichever proves higher)
T75 - Binding Shot
T90 - Barrage (Maybe Crows if it sims higher on single target)
T100 - Sidewinders or Headshot

That doesn't seem like it gives us more choices.

[Deleted]

So, looking at the new talent choices to me it appears we really will only ever change level 60 and 100. At least raiding wise.

T15 - Lonewolf
T30 - Trick shot
T45 - Farstriding
T60 - Careful Aiming or Patient Sniper (whichever proves higher)
T75 - Binding Shot
T90 - Barrage (Maybe Crows if it sims higher on single target)
T100 - Sidewinders or Headshot

That doesn't seem like it gives us more choices.

Raid PoV

lvl 15 lw - easy pick rest suck ass
lvl 30 prob trick shot - all 3 suck ass
lvl 45 im going with post haste rest suck ass
lvl 60 patient sniper / might be some specific fight that HV are used CA is pointles
lvl 75 all 3 are pointless
lvl 90 amoc single and barrage aoe/cleave
lvl 100 L&L , you need atleast around 20-30% haste for Sidewinder to be viable and you will never have focus to use HS.

Over all the talents are VERY underwhelming. And you dont really have a choice in most cases.

[Youn]

This is going to look dumb but can someone with alpha see if we have been reduced to the same effect as arcane mages....


#Showtooltip
/cast !Marked Shot
/cast Aimed Shot
/cast Arcane Shot

That might have be set as:

#Showtooltip
/cast Aimed Shot
/cast Arcane Shot
/cast !Marked Shot

[Thepersona]

i've played MM with my hunter since BC (in a pirate server) and in blizz since wrath
i love being able to choose wether to have a pet or not (even if it's sub optimal) because i love to switch targets in open content fastly and having a long uptime in combat.
i loathe SV being melee, and i am terrible with BM.
so then, i will have a pet with MM and f*ck the haters

[Deleted]

This is going to look dumb but can someone with alpha see if we have been reduced to the same effect as arcane mages....


#Showtooltip
/cast !Marked Shot
/cast Aimed Shot
/cast Arcane Shot

That might have be set as:

#Showtooltip
/cast Aimed Shot
/cast Arcane Shot
/cast !Marked Shot

No, and thank fudge for that

[Youn]

Looking at the numbers: Aimed shot appears to only worth firing if we use Lock and Load.

Attack Power:	10000				
Thas'doral WPD:	2752				
Lone wolf	35%				
Normalized Weapon Damage:		4752			



					Normal	Crit			
Arcane Shot:				8019	16038	10		
Windburst				64152	128304	-40	20	sec
Marked Shot (n)				28868	57736	-30		
Marked Shot (1)				29061	58122	-30		
Marked Shot (2)				29253	58506	-30		
Marked Shot (3)				29446	58892	-30		
Aimed Shot (n)				16038	32076	-50	2	sec
Aimed Shot (1/n)			16680	33360	-50	2	sec
Aimed Shot (1/1)			16680	35028	-50	2	sec
Aimed Shot (1/2)			16680	36696	-50	2	sec
Aimed Shot (1/3)			16680	38364	-50	2	sec
Aimed Shot (1/3/6)			20529	47217	-50	2	sec

Headshot				115473	230947	-20		
Sidewinders				19245.6	38491.2	70	12	sec
Lock and Load = 10% / 3 seconds to proc 2 Aimed Shots					
Barrage 				80832	161664	-60		
 - secondary targets			54562	109124			
Murder of Crows				18775		-30	60	sec

This assumes procs for Hunters mark is pretty quick off Arcane shots.

Note: This assumes a completely filled out bow.

[Deleted]

Looking at the numbers: Aimed shot appears to only worth firing if we use Lock and Load.

Attack Power:	10000				
Thas'doral WPD:	2752				
Lone wolf	35%				
Normalized Weapon Damage:		4752			



	Normal	Crit			
Arcane Shot:	8019	16038	10		
Windburst	64152	128304	-40	20	sec
Marked Shot (n)	28868	57736	-30		
Marked Shot (1)	29061	58122	-30		
Marked Shot (2)	29253	58506	-30		
Marked Shot (3)	29446	58892	-30		
Aimed Shot (n)	16038	32076	-50	2	sec
Aimed Shot (1/n)	16680	33360	-50	2	sec
Aimed Shot (1/1)	16680	35028	-50	2	sec
Aimed Shot (1/2)	16680	36696	-50	2	sec
Aimed Shot (1/3)	16680	38364	-50	2	sec
Aimed Shot (1/3/6)	20529	47217	-50	2	sec

Headshot	115473.6	230947.2	-20		
Sidewinders	19245.6	38491.2	70	12	sec
Lock and Load = 10% / 3 seconds to proc 2 Aimed Shots					
Barrage 	80832	161664	-60		
 - secondary targets	54562	109124			
Murder of Crows	18775		-30	60	sec

This assumes procs for Hunters mark is pretty quick off Arcane shots.

Tryed doing a no-AS rotation last night. Was ALOT higher. You will drop the Markedshot buff from time to time but it doesent matter, the damage is so much higher just spamming As/Marked and fill with windburst on cd. Stupid as hell tbh.

[Youn]

So, this rotation:

			100	
0	Windburst	64	40
1.5	Aimed Shot	8	60
3	Arcane shot	22	-10
4.5	Arcane shot	36	-10
6	Marked Shot	10	30
7.5	Arcane shot	24	-10
9	Arcane shot	38	-10
10.5	Marked Shot	12	30
12	Arcane shot	26	-10
13.5	Arcane shot	40	-10
15	Marked Shot	14	30
16.5	Arcane shot	28	-10
18	Arcane shot	42	-10
19.5	Arcane shot	56	-10
21	Windburst	20	40
22.5	Acane Shot	34	-10
24	Acane Shot	48	-10
25.5	Marked Shot	22	30
27	Acane Shot	36	-10
28.5	Acane Shot	50	-10
30	Marked Shot	24	30
31.5	Acane Shot	38	-10
33	Acane Shot	52	-10
34.5	Marked Shot	26	30
36	Acane Shot	40	-10
37.5	Acane Shot	54	-10
39			58	
40.5	Windburst	22	40

[Kallisto]

Lone Wolf becoming a talent completely killed any interest in Marksmanship I had left. They mostly made bad changes to MM until this point anyway...

Honestly until they fix everything about the pets, pathing, attacking who you tell them to attack, not taking stupid routes to something 5 yards in front of them, then Lone Wolf for marksman should be baseline passive that lasts from level 1.

[threads]

what's hilarious is how many people are saying they needed pets in pvp for master's call and it's surv-only now. also the same people that cried about being forced into LW to raid in hfc who will take LW again in legion when they realize TA sucks.

[Youn]

Well, they should have made Lone wolf baseline and 'Pet Trainer' the talent in the Lone wolf spot.

Pet trainer being able to use a pet talent but will shut off lonewolf while pet is active.