[Pre-Beta] Havoc Discussion

[Vanyali]

First Blood makes Blade Dance worth using in single target, but it is still really good in multiple target situations like it always has been, even better with the further reduced cost.

Why would demon blades be relegated to single target only, BD, TG, EB, FotI, all hit multiple targets. The only thing that might bias against demon blades would be if you got to use less cleaving chaos strikes, which I am not sure is the case.

Correctly on First Blade counts but it really turns it from a multi-primary to a single-primarily. can be used for both in both situations, but it's the degree.

DB competes with Prepared now... which doesn't require you to be in-range or not target switching. Any switching hurts demon blades unless you're very careful with your swing timers AND they're always in range, where prepared has no such requirement. Was a much bigger deal when it was competing with Demonic in the prior build, but prepared will still win over demon blades on a movement / aoe fight.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

all the legendary items being statted is fantastic
http://legion.wowhead.com/item=13706...cascading-eyes

very useful stats, and it's likely to be our go to legendary for every situation, given the idea that you probably start with a single one to equip for a while in legion. the cdr on multi monster pulls is going to be silly and if legendary items work in challenge modes it'll probably be hard to compete with havoc for the melee spot in a cm group. dh ae is through the roof.

Couple that with Blind Fury for maximum sexiness.

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Correctly on First Blade counts but it really turns it from a multi-primary to a single-primarily. can be used for both in both situations, but it's the degree.

DB competes with Prepared now... which doesn't require you to be in-range or not target switching. Any switching hurts demon blades unless you're very careful with your swing timers AND they're always in range, where prepared has no such requirement. Was a much bigger deal when it was competing with Demonic in the prior build, but prepared will still win over demon blades on a movement / aoe fight.

The jist I'm getting here is that moving Demon Blades to a tier where it competes with another Fury generator was a super poopy move.

And Balanced Blades kinda makes First Blood pretty great in just about any number of targets situations. Obviously the intent is to add Blade Dance to the ST que, but Balanced Blades still makes it hit that much harder for that first target and with the added bonus of having the BB damage bonus for other nearby targets.

Not gonna call for it by any means, but I wouldn't be even the tiniest bit shocked if they nerfed BB down to 5% increase for every nearby target (or at least add a maximum amount it can be increased by)

[Cooper]

I don't think the legendary system in Legion is supposed to be set up in a way that people can expect to have any particular legendary.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

Question for testers on Balanced Blades: is there a buff or some other way to tell how much BD damage is being increased by it aside from "it deals more damage kek". Like, is there a UI element for it somewhere?

[Wildkarde]

Correctly on First Blade counts but it really turns it from a multi-primary to a single-primarily. can be used for both in both situations, but it's the degree.

DB competes with Prepared now... which doesn't require you to be in-range or not target switching. Any switching hurts demon blades unless you're very careful with your swing timers AND they're always in range, where prepared has no such requirement. Was a much bigger deal when it was competing with Demonic in the prior build, but prepared will still win over demon blades on a movement / aoe fight.

You are right about prepared being better on any fight you spend much time out of melee range which will suck as I HATE HATE HATE the whole idea behind that talent, using our escape ability rotationally just feels all kinds of wring to me. Not sure where the target swapping thing comes from though, as the swing timer doesn't reset when you swap targets, so as long as it's in rage (not generally goiing to be a problem for use) and you are facing it you won't lose any swings. Plus, even on a heavy target swapping fight how often do you really swap targets, I think we might be getting way too far into the noise here.

As for speed of play, either I am very unaffected by it or you are extra affected as it just doesn't feel that bad to me, it is as fast if not faster than frost Dk is currently, which is the only other "slow" spec I have tried so far.

[Vanyali]

You are right about prepared being better on any fight you spend much time out of melee range which will suck as I HATE HATE HATE the whole idea behind that talent, using our escape ability rotationally just feels all kinds of wring to me. Not sure where the target swapping thing comes from though, as the swing timer doesn't reset when you swap targets, so as long as it's in rage (not generally goiing to be a problem for use) and you are facing it you won't lose any swings. Plus, even on a heavy target swapping fight how often do you really swap targets, I think we might be getting way too far into the noise here.

As for speed of play, either I am very unaffected by it or you are extra affected as it just doesn't feel that bad to me, it is as fast if not faster than frost Dk is currently, which is the only other "slow" spec I have tried so far.

I don't mind the talent - I just wish it actually reflected what it is and the animation cancel was baked in in the form of it generating fury for no longer being an escape. Woudl feel much better than cheesing an animation.

And yes, being in range would be the issue; a lot of add fights as melee either require you to move or they're positioned just out of range because tank reasons. They might eventually be close enough.. but in the meantime you're running to target swap a few steps, missing a few swings, and missing the fury that you wouldn't have missed with prepared.

Heavy swapping fight.. archimonde mythic comes to mind. Doomfires aren't always in range of Archimonde, nor are Deathcallers, and Overseers are a mockery for ranged sometimes. Stars, as well, and then there's infernals.. I would dread running Demon Blades on Archimonde mythic. Even Assault would be a pain in the ass, as early Assault required rapid switching to casters that may or may not be anywhere near each other. Same with Soc, or Xhul, or even Kilrogg if the add decides to be a jackass with movement.

Demon Blades w/ Felblade vs. Demon Blades without Felblade is night and day.. and it's super unfortunate how slow it gets without. Was trying to do an instance for logs / vid of the difference but my instance group fell apart and the servers are ping ponging too much to do much.

[Wildkarde]

I like the idea of making prepared just be an ability that replaces Vengeful retreat, since you still have fel rush to use as escape if you need to, and the animation canceling thing just seems like it is going to suck whenever there is any lag at all.

Speaking of fel rush, does using it for the damage or to proc momentum feel really clunky to you? Especially on targets that have small hit boxes so you have to either use it again to get back where you were or run back into melee range. I'm not sure what you could change to remedy this that would preserve it's ability to be used as a pseudo blink.

[Vanyali]

Speaking of fel rush, does using it for the damage or to proc momentum feel really clunky to you? Especially on targets that have small hit boxes so you have to either use it again to get back where you were or run back into melee range. I'm not sure what you could change to remedy this that would preserve it's ability to be used as a pseudo blink.

with the talent switch-around... yeah, it probably will, because i loathed the melee-momentum anyway. good for large boxes, awful for small boxes.

[Wildkarde]

You know, the more I think about Demon blades the more I come to think that if their intention with the talents is to give those who don't want the utterly GCD locked play style a choice for something less so, the more I think it is going to need some sort of major rework to actually make that happen. With the current talent trees there aren't really two other "play style" talents you could put on that row for it to compete with. Not to mention the fact that demon blades is going to scale better than demon's bite since as you gain crit you need to spend less gcd's generating fury with demon's bite, but with blades you are still generating fury at the same rate no matter how many free chaos strikes you get. I had thought of make making the demon blades effect a glyph for demon bite but that would be a nightmare to balance.

[Warstar]

In addition to Havoc and Vengeance, Demon Hunters may now select their third specialization: Forgiveness.
This spec utilizes the power of positive thinking to defeat their foes, with abilities such as Mindfulness, Active Listening, and Understanding.
Undertake an epic questline of quiet contemplation and reflection of self-worth to obtain the powerful artifact: Kravnogoth, the Calmbringer.

I'm ok with this.

[Cooper]

In addition to Havoc and Vengeance, Demon Hunters may now select their third specialization: Forgiveness.
This spec utilizes the power of positive thinking to defeat their foes, with abilities such as Mindfulness, Active Listening, and Understanding.
Undertake an epic questline of quiet contemplation and reflection of self-worth to obtain the powerful artifact: Kravnogoth, the Calmbringer.

I'm ok with this.

The weird thing about that joke is that it shows at least one person at Blizzard understands how emotionally screwed up Demon Hunters must be, as the description for the joke spec is essentially a list of therapies for a variety of personality disorders.

But I doubt they'll ever actually be written with any depth beyond being grimdark superhero demon-guys who are misunderstood. :/

[Warstar]

The weird thing about that joke is that it shows at least one person at Blizzard understands how emotionally screwed up Demon Hunters must be, as the description for the joke spec is essentially a list of therapies for a variety of personality disorders.

But I doubt they'll ever actually be written with any depth beyond being grimdark superhero demon-guys who are misunderstood. :/

Nah. DKs will forever be the emo's of WoW. DH are the angry pissed off guys who rage a lot.

[High Marshal Sigismund]

I'm going to assume at this point the chance of Demon Blades being removed is close to zero. They seem hellbent on keeping the talent.

[grizzlysaurusrex]

So I think that 100 (second) tier of talents still needs fixing. Demon Blades being there means there are now two choices that add a button to your rotation and one that removes one. One of those two that adds one should maybe be a modifier of an ability without removing one. Maybe Demonic Appetite or Blind Fury should trade places with Fel Eruption?

I think Demon Blades should also work more like Enhancement's Boulder Fist instead of completely removing the button.

[High Marshal Sigismund]

I think Demon Blades should also work more like Enhancement's Boulder Fist instead of completely removing the button.

Totally agree. I think something more interesting to consider is Demon's Bite and "Demon Blades" as an active replacement supplementing different stats. For example, Demon's Bite would have you leaning towards finding haste for the higher fury generation, but Demon Blades talent makes you generate less Fury baseline, but you generate double the fury whenever you critically hit.

Or it could change your Demon's Bite to do less damage baseline, but give some kind of a boost to auto attacks for a short duration. Maybe the auto attacks place stacks on the target and Chaos Striking the target expends the stacks and increases the damage of your Chaos Strike, or something.

[Factor]

I'm going to assume at this point the chance of Demon Blades being removed is close to zero. They seem hellbent on keeping the talent.

I'm glad they are. It serves to give an alternative to people who don't want, or simply cannot play, a GCD spam spec. Blizz is going the same route with Enhance as well. And, while I will never take the talent unless it parses better, there are those that will want or need to regardless. No harm in that.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

I think Demon Reborn is the bigger fish to fry. Demon Blades has it's place. People don't like it, it happens. There's people who also don't like First Blood, it happens. Only thing I'll really say on that particular talent is that i do like the idea of it functioning relatively similar to Boulderfist, but that's neither here nor there.

I'm not sure i've seen a single person talk about Demon Reborn in a positive light since it was (unintentionally) working with Demonic, and even then, not too many people seemed to be too crazy about "face lazer mode" then either. Happy to be corrected, but it seems to be a rather uninteresting talent to most.

Question is: do people want a redesign for it? Or something else entirely in its place.

[High Marshal Sigismund]

I'm glad they are. It serves to give an alternative to people who don't want, or simply cannot play, a GCD spam spec. Blizz is going the same route with Enhance as well. And, while I will never take the talent unless it parses better, there are those that will want or need to regardless. No harm in that.

Sure, but there are other ways the talent can reduce the spammy-ness of the spec without literally removing any need to press the button. Enhance does it decently well, as with Boulderfist you are pressing it at a noticeably less rate than Rockbiter.

Here's my personal fix:

Demon Blades:
Demon's Bite now has a 8 second recharge, with 2 recharges. Deals 500% weapon damage and generates 30-40 fury.

I liked what they did with Crusader Strike. Basically gave it multiple options on how fast you wanted to press it.

[jayinjersey]

It brings a tear to my eye...that Enhance is now being talked about in an positive light.
And infuriates me to no end...that it is after I made the commitment to abandon it when they announced Legion cause I was sick of being the forgotten step-child of wow

[Vanyali]

Cenarious logs:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/z83BfmHFvwx4XcMk/