California is first state to approve $15 minimum wage

[PC2]

Because the regions they come from have hardly any formal infrastructure or growth, therefore they migrate to where there's growth and work.

That's so weird that they generate "incredible amounts of value" but can't create formal infrastructure and growth.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Every bike sale costs time. If you go to buy a new bike, do you run into the first store and come out with a brand new bike in <15 minutes?

Almost nobody does.. It costs a lot of time.

At some point you are just out of people to sell the bikes with and if you get more, you'll just be walking in each others way.

Demand is not static and is constantly changing. Demand grows as buying power does as well. I mean this is pretty basic economics. Did you pay attention?

[Evolixe]

No, I buy it directly online.

I'm not following you, are you talking about bike salespersons on the floor?

I'm talking a store in general. And you buy a bike online, that you have never tried.. or even seen before? You must have pretty low standards.

Even so, the former example still stands. Everyone has money to spend, lots of people are going to buy things online.
How does it get to your doorstep? Stuff doesn't teleport. It requires manpower and machinery. If that gets busier, they need more money to afford more people.

Small and Medium businesses don't have capital right now. And that is a huge problem. Because if everyone gets so much more to spend in a short period of time, keeping up with demand will be impossible.

[Goondicker]

when do i get my raise? I make that now, so i should be good for what, 25 bucks?

This I think is the most obvious issue with such a big change suddenly. Why would someone go to school and be an EMT when they can get the same pay for showing up at Wendy's?

I'm no expert, and could well be wrong, but it seems to me that the issue isn't low minimum wage, it's lack of full-time jobs. Nearly everyone entering the workforce now is working 2 jobs at 20-30 hours, but neither include benefits, etc.

[alexw]

Every bike sale costs time. If you go to buy a new bike, do you run into the first store and come out with a brand new bike in <15 minutes?

Almost nobody does.. It costs a lot of time.

At some point you are just out of people to sell the bikes with and if you get more, you'll just be walking in each others way.

This is a 5 year olds level of thinking. If businesses see significant rises in demand they

a) Hire more people

and

b) Expand to more premises or move to bigger premises.

I am not sure why you are coming up with such ludicrous fictitious examples since they are completely and utterly unbelievable with respect to how the real world works.

[Aori]

This I think is the most obvious issue with such a big change suddenly. Why would someone go to school and be an EMT when they can get the same pay for showing up at Wendy's?

I'm no expert, and could well be wrong, but it seems to me that the issue isn't low minimum wage, it's lack of full-time jobs. Nearly everyone entering the workforce now is working 2 jobs at 20-30 hours, but neither include benefits, etc.

The lack of hours is the larger issue in my area. Working 4 hour days 4 times a week is absurd.

[Evolixe]

Demand is not static and is constantly changing. Demand grows as buying power does as well. I mean this is pretty basic economics. Did you pay attention?

Raising minwage is, in a way, like putting a turbo on national income. Especially if it goes up very high very fast.
Meeting demand climbing so steeply is impossible. Which is why countries and world leaders put in plans to SLOWLY stabilize the economy.
Because there quite simply isn't a "quick fix".

This is a 5 year olds level of thinking. If businesses see significant rises in demand they

a) Hire more people

and

b) Expand to more premises or move to bigger premises.

I am not sure why you are coming up with such ludicrous fictitious examples since they are completely and utterly unbelievable with respect to how the real world works.

Read up yo.

[DeadmanWalking]

It's not about surviving, when people get higher wages they want more luxury so of course "twelvethirty" needs more to sustain his lifestyle, unless he's the notable exception.

Yes, they want more luxury unless of course they can't afford the basics still because the cost of living goes up to meet the minimum wage. You can't increase the value of money by giving everyone more dollars, you do it by increasing how much you can buy with a dollar. If you can buy two soda's for $1 it is better than giving an employee $2 so they can afford two $1 sodas.

When the minimum wage doubles to $15 the electrician (who has a skill) who use to make $15 now wants $30 to compensate for his skill and experience, wages go up across the board and companies shift the overhead to the consumer. Since they pay double for electricians they raise the cost of your electrical bill. Now instead of getting $7.50 an hour and paying $250 dollars in electrical bills you get $15 an hour and pay $500 in electrical bills, the value of what you make really hasn't changed, it still takes 40 hours a week to pay your bills but you did manage to devalue the value of the $ across the board. Hello inflation. Good bye value of the $.

The american economy is a self-correcting system, money doesn't come from no where. Countries like China force the value of their money and that is why people still trade in American Currency as the basis of all world trade. Money doesn't just fall from the sky because people want it to. Someone has to pay for it and it is always the consumer who pays for it in the end, not the producer.

[alexw]

This I think is the most obvious issue with such a big change suddenly. Why would someone go to school and be an EMT when they can get the same pay for showing up at Wendy's?

I'm no expert, and could well be wrong, but it seems to me that the issue isn't low minimum wage, it's lack of full-time jobs. Nearly everyone entering the workforce now is working 2 jobs at 20-30 hours, but neither include benefits, etc.

This is due to a lack of economic demand. There simply is not enough customers with enough money to necessitate employers hiring lots of full time employees. So they hire some part time ones and a lot of others can't find much work at all and fall off the rolls as discouraged workers.

[Time Sage]

Raising minwage is, in a way, like putting a turbo on national income. Especially if it goes up very high very fast.
Meeting demand climbing so steeply is impossible. Which is why countries and world leaders put in plans to SLOWLY stabilize the economy.
Because there quite simply isn't a "quick fix".

Read up yo.

Execept the issue is that the plans that were laid were never followed up on. Minium wage went up, but it wasn't up with inflation, resulting in people being unable to survive working full time on it.

[Evolixe]

Yeah that is how the economy works. Like one single isolated bike shop. Not.

You can say whatever you want. The core figure holds true no matter how much you enlarge the image.

- - - Updated - - -

Execept the issue is that the plans that were laid were never followed up on. Minium wage was went up, but it wasn't up with inflation, resulting in people being unable to survive working full time on it.

And that is regrettable. But you can't just give the entire country compensation for that + an increase on top of that at once. That'll just drive up prices.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Raising minwage is, in a way, like putting a turbo on national income. Especially if it goes up very high very fast.
Meeting demand climbing so steeply is impossible. Which is why countries and world leaders put in plans to SLOWLY stabilize the economy.
Because there quite simply isn't a "quick fix".

Read up yo.

Min wage hikes have happened many times throughout history, in many countries other than the US as well. Each time there was a small boost to the middle class, and no noticeable detriment on the economy. This is pretty basic. You're talking about min wage hikes like it's never happened before. Every time someone talks about all of the doomsday scenarios if we raise minimum wage I just sit here and think "Do you even history bro?"

[TheTaurenOrc]

This I think is the most obvious issue with such a big change suddenly. Why would someone go to school and be an EMT when they can get the same pay for showing up at Wendy's?

I'm no expert, and could well be wrong, but it seems to me that the issue isn't low minimum wage, it's lack of full-time jobs. Nearly everyone entering the workforce now is working 2 jobs at 20-30 hours, but neither include benefits, etc.

The key thing here is, there wont be a job at Wendy's, or any other Mc Burger place. Those low skill jobs will be done by robots come 2022.

Gone are the days where you can graduate high school, get a factory job, support your family and in 15 - 20 years own a home. Like long gone, 30 years ago. In terms of job prospects a College education today is the equivalent of a High school education in the 60's and 70's.

[DeadmanWalking]

This I think is the most obvious issue with such a big change suddenly. Why would someone go to school and be an EMT when they can get the same pay for showing up at Wendy's?

I'm no expert, and could well be wrong, but it seems to me that the issue isn't low minimum wage, it's lack of full-time jobs. Nearly everyone entering the workforce now is working 2 jobs at 20-30 hours, but neither include benefits, etc.

It use to be that a person in their early 20's could get a job in a warehouse doing production, now those jobs are in china/mexico/korea and we think it is shocking that 30 year olds work in fast food restaurants barely scraping by. Production jobs usually paid twice minimum wage. My father retired from Corning Glass but those jobs don't exist in Corning anymore for unskilled workers because they sent corning ware to Mexico.

We no longer produce things, we just feed the people who live here and those jobs are never returning because business suits don't like paying American workers wages/retirements/health care.

[alexw]

Raising minwage is, in a way, like putting a turbo on national income. Especially if it goes up very high very fast.
Meeting demand climbing so steeply is impossible. Which is why countries and world leaders put in plans to SLOWLY stabilize the economy.
Because there quite simply isn't a "quick fix".



Read up yo.

I have read. I have read every single post you have made and its economically illiterate nonsense. You are creating fictitious made up nonsense then making up other statements such as "lack of capital" (when there is a massive global savings glut and banks and investors are itching for places to put some of this spare capital that they have right now that is sitting doing nothing) to justify the first set of fictitious nonsense.

Do yourself a favor and actually learn what you are talking about.

[Evolixe]

Min wage hikes have happened many times throughout history, in many countries other than the US as well. Each time there was a small boost to the middle class, and no noticeable detriment on the economy. This is pretty basic. You're talking about min wage hikes like it's never happened before. Every time someone talks about all of the doomsday scenarios if we raise minimum wage I just sit here and think "Do you even history bro?"

You think it's all so simple, like you understand the entirety of the economic system

I guess we can only be glad the people posting here today aren't the ones leading countries.

[alexw]

You can say whatever you want. The core figure holds true no matter how much you enlarge the image.

Except you are, yet again, flat out wrong. I have spent a decade (out of purely self-interest) studying macro-economics. So I can tell you with 100% certainty that that is not how the economy on a macro-scale works. You cannot apply the micro to the macro and you'd ruin the economy simply by trying.

[Goondicker]

That's an issue with the salary of the EMT then, not with the salary at Wendys'.

Seriously, I don't get why people are more eager to insist that everyone else not get something rather than pushing for their own advancement.

I think you missed what I'm saying. I agree the EMT should be paid more than the fast food worker. But it won't happen by "pushing" ... you'll just get fired. Instead it would happen when all the EMTs quit and start working elsewhere for the same pay. Then, the company will likely increase their pay, but also their workload. Also, medical costs will rise.

It's not as simple as "everyone lives better because everyone has more money!" Inflation will skyrocket if we increase minimum wage by such a large amount without fixing the root problems.

[Cthulhu 2020]

You think it's all so simple, like you understand the entirety of the economic system

I guess we can only be glad the people posting here today aren't the ones leading countries.

Dude, bro, minimum wage hikes have happened throughout the last CENTURY without catastrophic consequences. Your doomsday theories are baseless.

[alexw]

I think you missed what I'm saying. I agree the EMT should be paid more than the fast food worker. But it won't happen by "pushing" ... you'll just get fired. Instead it would happen when all the EMTs quit and start working elsewhere for the same pay. Then, the company will likely increase their pay, but also their workload. Also, medical costs will rise.

It's not as simple as "everyone lives better because everyone has more money!" Inflation will skyrocket if we increase minimum wage by such a large amount without fixing the root problems.

Not really. I think the thinking behind it is to first force a moderate restructuring of the wage pyramid, so that it makes companies less profitable (they are wildly profitable right now) and some of those excess profits go instead to worker wages, and secondly to increase consumer demand and so decrease the ranks of the economically inactive. In truth it is exactly what the economy needs.