Level of Abuse By Raid Leaders/Officers

[HumbleDuck]

Well, I think its a two way road. A raid leader should point out mistakes ( not by shouting, just pointing out and proposing/ asking for soloution and expecting result) , also the members should point out if the raidleader is getting harsh.
I remember leading a raid back in the day, after a couple of nights of wiping, someone reached me and said one of the raid team members was very upset because of my harsh behavior. At that point I realised the wipes had made me so frustrated that I actually was acting harsh kinda unconsciously. Next day we killed the boss.

PS. If you feel abused in any guild, you should leave. There are a lot of easygoing raiding guilds out there. Joining one of those will help you both improve your skills and enjoy the game a lot more.

[Bosen]

I'd say the experiences will always vary because each group has a combination of personality types,like any team. What's too much for me to handle may not be so for you.

I've changed as a person through the years. I'm able to take abuse,filter it and get the message the person is trying to convey,even if I don't like the delivery method. If I want to achieve a goal,I have to know how to work with my team members and really know them. Yes,some people are dicks,but ask yourself if the core of their complaint is valid. If it is,process the feedback and improve if you can. Try and really communicate and don't call attention to the delivery of the feedback. Just communicate and let a dick be a dick. You be who you are and do your best.

Hopefully the leader isn't such a hard head that they'll just call the whole thing off prematurely.
If the person is unreasonable, there's nothing you can do.

[Deja Thoris]

The latent burn. I see you prefer the round about way of calling someone an idiot. To me there's no difference, people prefer different approaches; The most mature thing is, that people making the mistakes own up to it, and apologize for it. Then there's rarely a need to get angry.

But i understand you have a hard time dealing with others emotions and accepting differences that doesn't work/seem fair in your worldview. That doesn't inherently make something right or wrong. I think people above the mental stage of a teenager will be able to deal with being called "an idiot" "Clown" or "Asshat". If not, start taking yourself either 1) Less seriously and accept your shortcomings or 2) Dont have shortcomings.
Hopefully, you acknowledge the fact that people have the right, to be mad at you for doing a piss poor job, let it be in a school-project in your Highschool, at your job when you grow older or as part of your friend-group where you get drunk and hit on someones girlfriend. Its all fun and games, but you're still a damn clown.

To me you're just showing a level of emotional maturity that would get you kicked out of our guild.

I'm happy to call people out on mistakes (by name) but you address the error and calling a person an idiot or clown isn't how it should be done. You can talk about "they should have passed the mental stage where it hurts them" or whatever but by God, shouldn't you be past the mental age where you think it's ok to interact with people in that manner?

I get that its different strokes for different folks but I treat my guild members as I'd like to be treated. I don't believe people log in to be berated by some socially awkward nerd so I operate differently.

[Damajin]

The most charming RL in WoW history, Sebudai:

[Gum]

To me you're just showing a level of emotional maturity that would get you kicked out of our guild.

I'm happy to call people out on mistakes (by name) but you address the error and calling a person an idiot or clown isn't how it should be done. You can talk about "they should have passed the mental stage where it hurts them" or whatever but by God, shouldn't you be past the mental age where you think it's ok to interact with people in that manner?

I get that its different strokes for different folks but I treat my guild members as I'd like to be treated. I don't believe people log in to be berated by some socially awkward nerd so I operate differently.

Implying i am. again with the subtle insults. Guess its not worth infracting as its not openly stated.
But thats okay, i understand that you may not have friends where you banter, i understand that some people playing this game dont have what most call a social life. But honestly, most friend-groups allow for shit-talking of this low magnitude without any repercussions - Remember, its your fault they are mad at you. Being mad, at them being mad because you fucked up, seems to me emotionally stunted. Being able to take hot headed criticism and being called an idiot is part of being in a socially liberal space. If people wanted a safe-space, maybe they should not go on the internet... Or outside their own home..

You can disagree, peace be with that. But that doesn't make it correct and it doesn't make me wrong. People deal with emotions differently, had people randomly showed up, started spewing bullshit and shit-talking, everyone would hate them. Its funny how its universally true in these cases, that no one defends the guy continuously fucking your pulls up. Ill let you in on the secret, its cus its perceived to be fair.

[kamuimac]

"Stop being shit" too harsh for you?

this is perfect example of completly totaly non-constructive criticsm and very poor managing skills - one wont improve from statment like that - if you criticizing either show the person the exact detailed mistakes he did idealy in private conversation while going over logs or shut the f.. up and dont act like little kid who throws his toys in sandbox when stuff doesnt go his way - lashing out like this on people is not a sign of being a good leader its sign of being a pretentious little s..t with no clue in life.

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But honestly, most friend-groups allow for shit-talking of this low magnitude without any repercussions

if you are teenager maybe so but behaviour like this if you are adoult will only get you removed from any social group on a decent lv - if anything you would end up as laughingstock.

[Mirishka]

If this happens to you, find another guild.

[Logwyn]

You could just as easily say "If you don't stop dying and shape up, we will replace you with someone more effective until you fix your mistakes". But I get that maturity and empathy is not a strong suit for some people.

I've been around people in game that a raid leader said that exactly to them and it was leave raid and gquit. But yeah.. I wouldn't stick around someone being the "if you get aggro, it means you are going lose 50 DKP, because you didn't know, what the F to do." raid guy. Then again it might be fun just to screw up a couple times just to have them rage. Hehe

[Eleccybubb]

Idm it when raid leaders and officers are trying to help players, even if it sounds a bit over the top it helps at the end of the day. However all out abuse and treating raiders like shit just no, I would find a better guild in that situation. You are a raid leader/officer and are here to help your team, not abuse your power and treat them like crap.

[Polybius]

Implying i am. again with the subtle insults. Guess its not worth infracting as its not openly stated.
But thats okay, i understand that you may not have friends where you banter, i understand that some people playing this game dont have what most call a social life. But honestly, most friend-groups allow for shit-talking of this low magnitude without any repercussions - Remember, its your fault they are mad at you. Being mad, at them being mad because you fucked up, seems to me emotionally stunted. Being able to take hot headed criticism and being called an idiot is part of being in a socially liberal space. If people wanted a safe-space, maybe they should not go on the internet... Or outside their own home..

You can disagree, peace be with that. But that doesn't make it correct and it doesn't make me wrong. People deal with emotions differently, had people randomly showed up, started spewing bullshit and shit-talking, everyone would hate them. Its funny how its universally true in these cases, that no one defends the guy continuously fucking your pulls up. Ill let you in on the secret, its cus its perceived to be fair.

Shit like that breaks a guild.

When you want your group to make up for its mistakes, you provide constructive criticism, not tantrums.

[MoanaLisa]

The most charming RL in WoW history, Sebudai:

That's hilarious. I've never seen that before. Thanks for sharing. I'm tempted to put IT'S NOT ROCKET SURGERY in my sig. Ha ha ha. Oh lord.

On topic: Yeah, if your raid leader is constantly losing it, leave. You're better than that (even if you're not).

[Deathquoi]

Stop dying to stupid shit and you won't get called out.

[Gum]

Shit like that breaks a guild.

When you want your group to make up for its mistakes, you provide constructive criticism, not tantrums.

No, ive legitimately never seen a guild die, due to having people say to another guy that caused 5 wipes to the same mechanic "Idiot, Clown, Asshole, Retard, Pleb" or whatever like it. But truth be told, i havent been in many guilds. So my expirience is limited as most guilds i play in dont random disband.

Noone has time to go through logs on every pull, to calmly discribe to you why you shouldnt fucking stand still when theres a ghost comming right for you on gorefiend...

Or why you shouldnt stand still with edict on Tyrant in P3.

Or why not swapping to fire on archimonde is retarded.

Above a certain level of play, you're expected to know what the fuck you are doing, making tactical mistakes are never excusable but will always happen. Now how many times is down to the player, after a certain count, people start getting real tired of your shit, thats when you either 1) Get told to improve (harshly or not) or 2) Sat the fuck down on the bench and later replaced when someone suitable is found. Now explain to me what you would prefer? If you want 2, my guess is that you arent trying hard enough, and should stop being bad; It ruines 19 other players fun. Go play at a lower level ?

If you want to be pushing as hard as you can, expect people to be competitive, competitiveness is what drives innovation and while trying not to make this into a lifestyle-thread, i think it says a lot about people valueing their own happiness over others on their team.

[Damajin]

That's hilarious. I've never seen that before. Thanks for sharing. I'm tempted to put IT'S NOT ROCKET SURGERY in my sig. Ha ha ha. Oh lord.

On topic: Yeah, if your raid leader is constantly losing it, leave. You're better than that (even if you're not).

No problem haha, yeah it's amazing and they definitely got insane results from the way he pushed them.

I'm particularly fond of the AoE one, the G6 dog form one, and the one where he's talking about doing 720s while throwing heals, surviving to help you survive. Troxed was pure rage, Sebudai was razor sharp wit. Even the Rocket Surgery bit haha.

[Polybius]

No, ive legitimately never seen a guild die, due to having people say to another guy that caused 5 wipes to the same mechanic "Idiot, Clown, Asshole, Retard, Pleb" or whatever like it. But truth be told, i havent been in many guilds. So my expirience is limited as most guilds i play in dont random disband.

Noone has time to go through logs on every pull, to calmly discribe to you why you shouldnt fucking stand still when theres a ghost comming right for you on gorefiend...

Or why you shouldnt stand still with edict on Tyrant in P3.

Or why not swapping to fire on archimonde is retarded.

Above a certain level of play, you're expected to know what the fuck you are doing, making tactical mistakes are never excusable but will always happen. Now how many times is down to the player, after a certain count, people start getting real tired of your shit, thats when you either 1) Get told to improve (harshly or not) or 2) Sat the fuck down on the bench and later replaced when someone suitable is found. Now explain to me what you would prefer? If you want 2, my guess is that you arent trying hard enough, and should stop being bad; It ruines 19 other players fun. Go play at a lower level ?

If you want to be pushing as hard as you can, expect people to be competitive, competitiveness is what drives innovation and while trying not to make this into a lifestyle-thread, i think it says a lot about people valueing their own happiness over others on their team.

I guess it depends on who you play with. Pugs, guilds, etc.

If they're friends, then it's likely more acceptable. Personality can play a role in forming pacts, and PuGs are amalgamations of many types of players.

But constructive feedback, and a good eye for observation, is always useful - especially in Mythic raids. Insults don't "toughen" or make you "man-up" as you hope they do.

[Eleccybubb]

Stop dying to stupid shit and you won't get called out.

There's a difference between giving someone shit and constructive criticism though.

[Deleted]

The weak should fear the strong. For like the hawk we rule with talon and claws among the lesser birds.

[Gum]

this is perfect example of completly totaly non-constructive criticsm and very poor managing skills - one wont improve from statment like that - if you criticizing either show the person the exact detailed mistakes he did idealy in private conversation while going over logs or shut the f.. up and dont act like little kid who throws his toys in sandbox when stuff doesnt go his way - lashing out like this on people is not a sign of being a good leader its sign of being a pretentious little s..t with no clue in life.

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if you are teenager maybe so but behaviour like this if you are adoult will only get you removed from any social group on a decent lv - if anything you would end up as laughingstock.

Lo and behold, friend circles differ and i dont claim mine to be the perfect example of one. But i believe being able to take and give banter is required to be a functional human being. Call it archaic, but there was a reason Romans brought their kids to all man feasts, Being taught how to take insults is part of growing up, something sadly most modern men have lost and some might even argue why many men today are much more in touch with their femininity.


As i said to someone else, Noone has time to sit down and hold your hand on bossfights. Its your damn job as a teamplayer, to know wtf youre expected to do on a certain fight. Else, you're a casual where expectations might be a lot lower, and not being optimal allowed. Its about being on the same page. I assume the issue arises when you, dont mind wiping to the same mechanic 10 times, due to the same player being unable to comprehend something simple, and others do. The latter tend to upgrade, while you stagnate. That obviously kills guilds, but its not due to the language, its due to expectations being different in regards to how much you expect each member of your raid to do..

Thing is, many might think raiding is their fun, but it isnt. There's 19 other plebs in that raid, that all has to feel they what they do matter and is fun. You allowing some clown to be shit and ruin in for the other 19, is hardly fair. I have no shame in admitting that pointless shit-talking is obviously frowned upon, but i feel that if you continuously ruin other peoples fun, its at least to some extend justified.

[Alydael]

I know no one likes to talk about mistakes, but you have to. How would they get fixed otherwise?

I think the line is drawn between offering ways to improve (so the mistake doesn't happen again) vs. using the mistake to belittle someone.... for example: basic wow mistake- someone stood in the fire

Example 1: "You suck, how could you stand in that? You don't even know the fight!"

Example 2: "Guys (team) just be careful, that fire hurts a lot- our healers can not heal you through it. If it pops up under you- you have to immediately stop what you are doing, even if you are mid cast, and move. You might want to pop a defensive as well- just in case."

Example 1 is the jerk. Example 2 is most likely an experienced leader that knows how to correctly communicate.

[Slirith]

I never join guilds that take themselves that seriously. It is a game after all and there are plenty of guilds that can get shit done without being disrespectful. Don't stress, it's just a bunch of tryhards.

this so freaking much