Level of Abuse By Raid Leaders/Officers

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I've been raiding since Vanilla and have never encountered this in a Guild. In Pugs, sometimes... but rarely.

[Gum]

I guess it depends on who you play with. Pugs, guilds, etc.

If they're friends, then it's likely more acceptable. Personality can play a role in forming pacts, and PuGs are amalgamations of many types of players. But constructive feedback, and a good eye for observation, is always useful - especially in Mythic raids.

Naturally, but as i said, theres no way you have time to go through logs to make an iron clad case vs your raiders everytime they fuck something up. I dont think going insane on the first mistake is ever justified. It happens, but it isnt fair.
Playing with randoms, as with anyone you meet in life, treat them like you expect to be treated. But there's expectations that you have signed up for yourself, let t be pugs/Guilds/Groups/Education/Family/Girlfriends, and i think its fair, that if someone in either of those, are not meeting agreed upon expectations that shit is given for it.

Its not my job to teach anyone how to do things, if asked beforehand i think most of us would, out of the goodness in our heart, but comming to me after you fucked up, expected me to feed you info that you should already have? Dont think thats how it works anywhere in life, atleast i've yet to encounter in.

Imagine a Job, where you lied on your CV to get the position. When you get hired over someone else, you're damn sure expected to perform. If not, well youre gonna get sacked in an instant, i doubt anyone here would do otherwise.. I view raiding much like it, cept, instead of sacking them i let the fustation out and give them another chance. It is, afterall a game, not a job .

[Auxora]

Here's the conclusion I came to after many years of various levels of raiding from casual to very hardcore and everything in between...

There's a catch-22 with "being nice" as a raid leader. In early (easy) progression, many raid leaders will be hesitant to say much or call people out. But as the raid and group progresses each week, the content naturally with progression gets increasingly harder. And there is a point where the raid leader either has to be harsh and call people out if they want to get through the content, or they don't and usually the group will hit a ceiling and often eventually fall apart. The leadership of the RL also makes a big difference in raids starting on time and people being prepared, which gives more time for progression and better success. But being called out for being late, or missing raids, or waiting until raid time to chant gear, respec, etc. and delaying the raid start time can cause members to get upset or feel abused. It gets especially bad if it's the same person messing up on a boss fight repeatedly.

One huge issue often overlooked is that raid leaders are also frantically doing their role along with everyone else during boss fights. That can make it very difficult for them to be able to watch what everyone else is doing and identify who really messed up to cause a wipe. SOOO many times I've seen and experienced raid leaders calling out the wrong person that messed up their role, which inevitably leads to group fighting and drama.

All that aside, there are some raid leaders out there that are complete egomaniacs that are just raid leading as a power trip. Those are the ones that are unbearably abusive and are ones to avoid as much as possible. In some cases they are even running very successful raid groups with progression at the top of their realm. But the raid nights with those RL's are miserable and feel more like a job than a game. It's just a fine line between the egomaniac abusive ones, and the RLs that are generally good people but that have to call people out just out of necessity to progress.

[Polybius]

Naturally, but as i said, theres no way you have time to go through logs to make an iron clad case vs your raiders everytime they fuck something up. I dont think going insane on the first mistake is ever justified. It happens, but it isnt fair.
Playing with randoms, as with anyone you meet in life, treat them like you expect to be treated. But there's expectations that you have signed up for yourself, let t be pugs/Guilds/Groups/Education/Family/Girlfriends, and i think its fair, that if someone in either of those, are not meeting agreed upon expectations that shit is given for it.

Its not my job to teach anyone how to do things, if asked beforehand i think most of us would, out of the goodness in our heart, but comming to me after you fucked up, expected me to feed you info that you should already have? Dont think thats how it works anywhere in life, atleast i've yet to encounter in.

Imagine a Job, where you lied on your CV to get the position. When you get hired over someone else, you're damn sure expected to perform. If not, well youre gonna get sacked in an instant, i doubt anyone here would do otherwise.. I view raiding much like it, cept, instead of sacking them i let the fustation out and give them another chance. It is, afterall a game, not a job .

You're expected to perform, but to also give feedback. It's cooperation.

A good example is cross country, you don't leave your mates behind, and you dedicate yourself to a curved learning. There's a downside to this, and impatient players are bound to leave for an advanced group.

If a 'casual' cannot handle the heat, they downgrade. If a 'hardcore' player is impatient, they'll leave for a 'better' group. It takes time to find the appropriate crowd.

You learn something new in fresh raid encounters, that's a given for any group. But insults don't prune you into a better person, even in real life. You don't learn from insults.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I'm sure some abuse DOES happen, but I think people are 100% too sensitive to be honest. I don't think many people take criticism well at all.

Source: My experiences in LFR, lol

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

You calling it "abuse" is a great descriptor of your mentality towards success. While I don't support the Rignaros level literal screaming, but say anyone who wants to raid better be ready for the leadership to push the group.
If everyone is silent after wiping 100s of times then you may have coms muted.

[Eleccybubb]

I'm sure some abuse DOES happen, but I think people are 100% too sensitive to be honest. I don't think many people take criticism well at all.

Source: My experiences in LFR, lol

Well here's an example. If I died to a mechanic and someone said "Hey buddy try to be a bit more aware next time" or something along those lines fair enough constructive. If they said "Oi, you absolute shitter stop fucking dying to the goddamn ability you idiotic retard" then no not constructive just plain abuse.

- - - Updated - - -

You calling it "abuse" is a great descriptor of your mentality towards success. While I don't support the Rignaros level literal screaming, but say anyone who wants to raid better be ready for the leadership to push the group.
If everyone is silent after wiping 100s of times then you may have coms muted.

Riggnaros made me deaf for 20 seconds once. No joke.

[Maudib]

My questions are, how much is too much? When do you put your foot down and feel like telling the person in question to piss off? What kind of criticism are you receptive to? What kind do you hate?

OP. every single person that denies they have ever seen this sort of abuse is simply embarrassed to admit that they put on their pampers and take it every raid night. It is utter bullshit, but it happens in most every single progression raiding guild. The type of people this game draws in these days are the reason raids are this way. There is no fixing it... it's just the sad, pathetic way it is.

[IxilaFA]

OP. every single person that denies they have ever seen this sort of abuse is simply embarrassed to admit that they put on their pampers and take it every raid night. It is utter bullshit, but it happens in most every single progression raiding guild. The type of people this game draws in these days are the reason raids are this way. There is no fixing it... it's just the sad, pathetic way it is.

I'm sorry you think the majority of raiding guilds and leaders not being afraid to call out people when they fuck up during a fight they have seen 150 times is sad and pathetic. I'm not going to let 19 other people waste their time that they set aside for tonight just because little Billy doesn't want to be told he needs to stop standing in the fire.

[Deleted]

Ok. I'm an officer in a mythic guild and i can tell you a few things about this.

First, any level of abuse is obviously untolerable. If your raid leader is personally swearing at you seriously, ditch that guild man.

With that said, managing weekly events is pretty stressful and requires alot of effort from your guild leaders. So, it comes to reason that you help them with this by doing what you can to be prepared (this means reading your guild forums once in a while, getting your addons, getting your consumables and watch the tactics videos). But more than that, for you to be communicative. Because not knowing something and not asking about it is only a way to undermine your raid and if the leaders are good, they will notice and confront you about it. So, be cooperative and be a team player and you will find yourself in a relaxed while also sucessful raid. So, owning up to mistakes and asking what you should be doing aswell as participating in the whole process instead of just beeing a quiet voice in the croud just leeching some kills is vital. In mythic there will come fights that will depend on you upping the ante.

Basically and especially during tough barriers what is important is to keep communication going so you can help your raid leaders help you and for everyone to achieve the kill. If your raid leaders spot you making mistakes and call you on it (in a non abusive but inquisitive manner), instead of maybe feeling offended or ashamed, understand that they are doing it so you are aware of your mistake and instead ask for help on how to deal with your issues. The raid leaders will like it if you care and you are looking to solve your problems because it makes their job a bit easier when delivering the sucessful raid they aim to deliver.

So, in conclusion, don't be overly sensitive and try to work with your guild leaders. Look for like minded guilds/raids. Step away from over abusive envyronments. Personal attacks are not to be tolerated, but expect some venting of frustration when ramming against a wall. These are general done in non-personal fashion but i don't think theres any way to avoid some of those slipping from certain personalities or from the pressure of the situation.
As always, working together is the key to sucess. Don't yield to pessimism. Try to locate the problems and discuss how to fix them.

So, use those guidelines and be a good raider and you will find a good guild waiting for you.

Finally,as for LFR and PuG's go, give it up. They are toxic envyronments, so don't expect anything but the worse. You need thick skin if you go on those and expect to be unsucessful, unless you're lucky, wich is rarely the case.

[Zoldam]

I might get blasted, but it seems the guilds that did the best had crazy raid leaders that screamed at mistakes, likely has to do with people taking it more seriously when that happens (And carebears would quit the guild after that).

[High Marshal Sigismund]

You calling it "abuse" is a great descriptor of your mentality towards success. While I don't support the Rignaros level literal screaming, but say anyone who wants to raid better be ready for the leadership to push the group.
If everyone is silent after wiping 100s of times then you may have coms muted.

Your abysmal reading comprehension is a great descriptor of your inability to read competently. One can tell quite clearly what my stance and attitude is in this post:

You could just as easily say "If you don't stop dying and shape up, we will replace you with someone more effective until you fix your mistakes". But I get that maturity and empathy is not a strong suit for some people.

I don't mind blunt and to the point criticism whatsoever. There's no need to be disrespectful to any raider at the same time, no matter what excuse you want to make up to defend rotten behavior.

[Alvito]

I hate shouting period. No reason for it, grow up.

Shouting our of anger or frustration is certainly a waste of everyone's time. I have raised my voice when I have been repeating for somebody to move out of something, taunt or whatever is failure is happening and some how ignored. It isn't to flex any sort of raid lead muscles or anything like that it is because I have to assume they aren't hearing things, have tuned out or are on auto pilot. If you or anybody in the group are getting so upset they are doing anything in anger or ragging about something then it is time to rethink things. There isn't any reason to talk down to people though. I have heard it a few times and don't know why people put up with it or feel they need to talk to others that way.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't mind blunt and to the point criticism whatsoever. There's no need to be disrespectful to any raider at the same time, no matter what excuse you want to make up to defend rotten behavior.

The break down with that is some people would be fine with being told to get the fuck out of the fire jack ass and not find any disrespect in that, some feel like the are being verbally abused when you just ask them to step to the side or ask if they know what killed them. The scope of differences in people is enormous in WoW and due to the nature of some gamers you have some very socially inept people playing the game.

[Khorm]

The raging of yesteryear has largely disappeared, in its place is expectation. You are more likely to be benched or dropped these days than in the raging days.

[kamuimac]

As i said to someone else, Noone has time to sit down and hold your hand on bossfights.

ofc there isnt but if you want to be effective you should make remarks like "player X you did Y dmg to Z target when you should have done 3Y be better next time" or " you took X amount of dmg from Y source dont do it next time" (and by no means you need going throu logs for tht quick few seconds glance on skada do the work and provides you with basic infoif you knwo what you are looking for ) remarks like "stop being shit' bring nothing constructive and show what lv of behaviour/spcial group you represent.

Lo and behold, friend circles differ

ofc they do and if you dont mind being super funny but surrounded by pleb all you life be my guest but most of people have better life expectations then that. at certain point its time to grow up and behave appropiate to your age and job/life status.

The raging of yesteryear has largely disappeared, in its place is expectation. You are more likely to be benched or dropped these days than in the raging days.

thing is geting benched or dropped is fine if people dont play up to group standards (if those standards were set during recruitment process) just done in efficient civil way not as " you play like shit gtfo from here". if someone is failing repeatedly on mechanic then simply replace him for the evening thats what bench is for.

OP. every single person that denies they have ever seen this sort of abuse is simply embarrassed to admit that they put on their pampers and take it every raid night. It is utter bullshit, but it happens in most every single progression raiding guild. The type of people this game draws in these days are the reason raids are this way. There is no fixing it... it's just the sad, pathetic way it is.

it really doesnt happen in "most" guilds just in guilds with clueless raid leaders- the last time i've seen this sort of behaviour on ts was long long ago and i instantly left that guild after 5 minutes of first raid with them because i cba to deal with douchebags in enviroment where i did spend couple of hours each week for months when i was raiding - its not worth your time.

[Deathquoi]

There's a difference between giving someone shit and constructive criticism though.

After 10 pulls giving constructive criticism and the person is still dying to the same stupid thing, people get frustrated, it's human nature.

[BiggestNoob]

If you can't take criticism, you're on the wrong planet.

Maybe you should make a pillow fort and hide from the world.

After 10 pulls giving constructive criticism and the person is still dying to the same stupid thing, people get frustrated, it's human nature.

10 pulls = gkick.

[Alvito]

The raging of yesteryear has largely disappeared, in its place is expectation. You are more likely to be benched or dropped these days than in the raging days.

Not needing attunements and having a much larger playerbase that has toons ready to or close to being ready to raid at any level makes it much easier to replace people now. There are also a lot less fights where you need to stack classes/specs or can't do fights without a specific spec. There are of course specs people would like to have but you don't need lock tanks or things like that now. If your server, raid quality and time slot can accommodate you can drop people as needed and replace rather easily.

[Deja Thoris]

If you can't take criticism, you're on the wrong planet.

Maybe you should make a pillow fort and hide from the world.



10 pulls = gkick.

The point of this thread, which you unsurprisingly missed is not whether criticism is delivered but how

[Gaidax]

So just leave, in the guild I was before Guild Leader tried to pull some shit on me behind my back for really silly reasons, I just caught up on it thanks to one of the officers who had some shame and came clear, then I went ahead and quit it, end result - they had one less decent player over what was literally idiotic spat and I found a really nice chill guild that ended up getting 13/13M.

There is no reason to put up with shitty behavior from leaders, there are thousands of guilds looking for players, especially now when new recruits are few and precious.