Can somebody explain, why pruning is so necessary?

[nathrizarri]

Maybe stop being dense? Obviously we would be likeminded people who are against it.

Speak for yourself, think for yourself. Anywhere in your mind you are including "we/them" to the topic you are basically trying to justify your reasons. Propose your idea, instead of poking other's proposal with your mindset. That is healthier.

I for example find Plague Strike/Outbreak/Icy touch extremely useless. I do like Legion Blood/Frost having their diseases unique benefits and being automatically applied by default rotation. Disease management takes up 1 tier row and offered talents are very class specific, meaning Unholy Blight is only worth for necroblight UH, Plague Leech is a must for Frost. Plaguebearer is only worth for BLood if you have extreme amounts of multistrike that you can keep your rotation as DS/DC with GCD locked.

Just by removing 2x diseases and making their applience baked into the rotaion and making us not worry about keeping the diseases up, they enabled us to have 1 talent tier for more customization and made our rotation much more fluid in long run. Instead of worrying about diseases, or picking a "must go talent", now I get to choose what aspect of my Frost DK I want to focus,

Do I want %30 more Crit Dmage on Frost Strikes?
Do I want more attack speed from Using Frost Strike, therefore increasing my Killing Machine proc chances?
Or Do I wanna have my Howling blast dealing %100 more damage on my Priority target?

All made possible by pruning.

[Deleted]

Speak for yourself, think for yourself. Anywhere in your mind you are including "we/them" to the topic you are basically trying to justify your reasons. Propose your idea, instead of poking other's proposal with your mindset. That is healthier.

I for example find Plague Strike/Outbreak/Icy touch extremely useless. I do like Legion Blood/Frost having their diseases unique benefits and being automatically applied by default rotation. Disease management takes up 1 tier row and offered talents are very class specific, meaning Unholy Blight is only worth for necroblight UH, Plague Leech is a must for Frost. Plaguebearer is only worth for BLood if you have extreme amounts of multistrike that you can keep your rotation as DS/DC with GCD locked.

Just by removing 2x diseases and making their applience baked into the rotaion and making us not worry about keeping the diseases up, they enabled us to have 1 talent tier for more customization and made our rotation much more fluid in long run. Instead of worrying about diseases, or picking a "must go talent", now I get to choose what aspect of my Frost DK I want to focus,

Do I want %30 more Crit Dmage on Frost Strikes?
Do I want more attack speed from Using Frost Strike, therefore increasing my Killing Machine proc chances?
Or Do I wanna have my Howling blast dealing %100 more damage on my Priority target?

All made possible by pruning.

This is not made possible by pruning as they could just give you the option to choose for both at the same time. There is no need to remove the old to add a new choice.

[Usagi Senshi]

Every MOBA out there makes characters with only 4 spells and 1 passive and they have more depth than most of wow's classes.

So yea, pruning is heavily necessary.

Also it makes balance easier, which is also needed right now

Not just mobas but other MMOs that only use 8-12 abilities per class and still be easy to use and hard to master. This keeps a decent gap between the noob players and hardcore players but its not wide enough to bring down a group as a whole and the noob player will catch on easier and perform better later on. WoW and FFXIV have some rotations that are too long and are just noob traps usually and if a noob performs badly in these games then they can bring a group down and they might be deterred from performing better later on especially if things stay complicated and other players berate them constantly.

I actually hope some classes get a pruning in FFXIV's next expansion as well.

I also have checked recently but have enhance shaman received a decent pruning this time? As my former main class I feel it needed it the most tbh. Using 1-2 more abilities to do the same thing other classes do with 1 ability always pissed me off.

[Fkiolaris]

Either you are being very ironical or this is fanboyism beyond any measurement.

You are saying that all of the pruned abilitys in WoD and now in Legion had no use in PvE or PvP EVER? like.....Shield Wall for DPS warriors or something absolutely useless like Grounding Toem/Spell Reflect/Dark Simulacrum in PvE? Silence Shot, Scatter, almost all Hunter Pet Abilitys, Fel Flame, Non Specc specific Mage Spells, every single non specc specific druid ability in other forms, Garrote, Shiv, Premeditation, Shadow Walk, Crimson Tempest, Hemorrage, Smoke Bomb in PvE, Mass-Stealth and many, many more had no use at all and no reason to exist, you are definetly correct there.

Irony aside, Pruning only becomes a problem imho when it comes to non-damaging abilitys; heal, cc and utility.
Rotations can be very complex and fun without the need of many buttons, it just needs synergy of some sort in it, what alot of poeple seem to ignore here is that abilitys that werent straight damage abilitys what made the game fun for alot of poeple (and all PvPers) and they are really lacking in the current Alpha.

Not to mention that the "Class/Specc Diversity" is absolutely non-existent even after pruning, every single DPS class seems to have some sort of ridiculous selfheal, AoE/Ranged/Instant CC and 1-2 defensive cooldowns wich are often just reactive (or passive like the new holy paladin/specced ret divine shield).

"Bring the Player not the Class" is simply against Class Diversity.

Why bring a rogue to a dungeon instead of lets say a DK? Dks had massgrip, Rogues had mass-stealth, both being pruned in legion there is just the choice between Simcraft dps meters of the classes + ilvl between those two Players.
Everything else like specc/class or individual skill besides pressing their rotation for max dps just wont matter at all.
Im oversimplyfing the theoretical problem here but i hope that you guys understand the point im trying to make, that we are all just becoming clones with different colored abilitys, atleast.....to some extent.

You are just wasting your time trying to explain 1 + 1 to a crowd that even in this thread has gone through every moronic cliche while defending the prune. For every stupid argument presented in favour of the prune there are many examples to show it wrong. "Non-used" abilities, meaningful abilities, powerful abilities, spec-defining abilities: the whole lot is pruned but apparently MOBAs only have 4 buttons and that defines the pinnacle of e-gaming in every possible way.

Edit: as for the above post and the MMOs with 8-12 abilities, you are conveniently ignoring the massive difference in gameplay those games have to WoW. GW2, Wildstar, TSW, Tera and so on are action-based games where every character can dodge attacks and that in itself is a whole different ballgame than the combat of WoW. In other words when in WoW your mage can dodge the CB of the destro or the priest can dodge the execute of an Arms warrior, then come back and tell us about those other MMOs that play with 8-12 buttons just fine

[Seefer]

Devs can do whatever they want, doesn't mean everyone will stay and play it though.

If you are going to leave because you don't have 18 keybinds and 12 macros I feel sorry for you, well not really but anyway, enjoy trying to find your game that has all that.

[Deleted]

If you are going to leave because you don't have 18 keybinds and 12 macros I feel sorry for you, well not really but anyway, enjoy trying to find your game that has all that.

I played pvp with ~60+ keybinds during wotlk-start of wod though you might consider it inflated because of those focus macros for arena1/2/3 with ctrl/shift/alt + . It's essentially what made wow different to other tab-target games and there really wasn't any other game like it wich made it a unique experience. I'm not mad at them or anything, i understand that i'm not their target market but at the same time i just don't think the game has anything else unique about it for a non-raider wich seems to be one aspect where they still are ahead. For Trading/Politics eve-online is by far the best, for crafting you find many games with deeper systems (newly released bdo), questing in wow was unique in quality but became the industry-standard and you can get much more content hopping from new release to new release than staying with one game. So i don't see anything else going for it currently. Most likely i will do the same in legion as in wod - play ~1month for the new content and leave again to the next newly released game til the next addon hits.

[Deleted]

Not just mobas but other MMOs that only use 8-12 abilities per class and still be easy to use and hard to master. This keeps a decent gap between the noob players and hardcore players but its not wide enough to bring down a group as a whole and the noob player will catch on easier and perform better later on. WoW and FFXIV have some rotations that are too long and are just noob traps usually and if a noob performs badly in these games then they can bring a group down and they might be deterred from performing better later on especially if things stay complicated and other players berate them constantly.

I actually hope some classes get a pruning in FFXIV's next expansion as well.

I also have checked recently but have enhance shaman received a decent pruning this time? As my former main class I feel it needed it the most tbh. Using 1-2 more abilities to do the same thing other classes do with 1 ability always pissed me off.

Have you tried the hit mmo rpg sweeping the nation?

progressquest.com

It has everything you want!

Moderation Note: Stop spamming this reply. It's off-topic and is now verging on advertising. [MoanaLisa]

[judgementofantonidas]

Incorrect. Blizzard is removing abilities that are not of any use - that have no reason to exist. Nothing more nothing less.

right. i have no need to heal myself as a tank. go get your head looked at.

[schwarzkopf]

i have no need to heal myself as a tank

This is indeed correct, there are healers to do healing ... tanks are about mitigation, not healing.

[Glorious Leader]

I find it amusing that there are so many people on this forum who profess to have loved vanilla and TBC... and who can't bear to go back to those days in terms of how many buttons we need to push.

The thing is that having a lot of DPS buttons isn't interesting. Too few is boring too. There's a sweet spot but what they should do is have class identifying spells that can be used and can help but aren't usually necessary to an encounter. For example, Mind Control on a priest is rarely needed, but it could be fun and useful to MC one of the more dangerous NPCs in a pack, let them beat on each other and then finish them off. Of course, now we all just want to blow up the pack in 5 seconds...

Precisely. Bm hunter in tbc was a one button macro that used MANA. It was so fucking simple by comparison. That goes for encounter design as well.

[Deleted]

Precisely. Bm hunter in tbc was a one button macro that used MANA. It was so fucking simple by comparison. That goes for encounter design as well.

If you played with a one button marco not only would you be dead thrice over from threat your dps would be shit from going oom not applying serpents sting...

[Roamingstorm]

Their argument is that it will make classes unique again and reduce homogenization. They also want room for future abilities. It's a double edged sword, I'm on the fence about the prune. If it restores a sense of unique specs and niche roles I am for it. However, I personally think they will drop the ball and end up homogenizing all over again. They will crack under pressure.

Pretty much. On top of the fact, and this is being a Shaman since Vanilla, there became a point to of when I just had too much crap. Don't get me wrong I miss Sentry Totem and all the fluff, but man did I feel like I had a bunch of stuff.

The hard part is finding that happy medium. WoW is a big MMO, and God only knows if they came out with an expansion that only added raids, quests, etc, but no new abilities. I could see the community flip out.

Again, as Orange said, it's a fine line of trying to balance it all out.

[Glorious Leader]

If you played with a one button marco not only would you be dead thrice over from threat your dps would be shit from going oom not applying serpents sting...

Hardly since you could also misdirect. The dps rotation was literally one button and compared to keeping track of focus mana management was a non issue. It was a joke and by the time wotlk rolled around i dont recall ever needing to worry about mana. Ever. In fact iirc that's why they switched to focus. To add resources management to the hunter class because it effectively had none. It doesn't sound like you actually played hunter back then.

Overall th3 game was much simpler in the past and I'm glad the devs have recognized this. You should fucking pray they don't figure out the same thing for encounter design. If their goal is really to reduce the skill gap that's the next place I'd go.

[Deleted]

Hardly since you could also misdirect. The dps rotation was literally one button and compared to keeping track of focus mana management was a non issue. It was a joke and by the time wotlk rolled around i dont recall ever needing to worry about mana. It doesn't sound like you actually played hunter back then.

You still sucked ass if you played that way.... That is like saying you can play a rogue by binding your cds and sinster strike to one button...

Never got past kara did you champ?

[Glorious Leader]

You still sucked ass if you played that way.... That is like saying you can play a rogue by binding your cds and sinster strike to one button...

Never got past kara did you champ?

All the way to hyjal and bm was macrod. If you didn't you were terrible. You had bestial wrath for a cd and utility stuff traps and feign death. Mouse macro for misdirect. As far as the rotation went one button. I know when you lose an argument it's easier to return to insults champ but you can't argue it wasnt a thing and it's what the spec revolved around. Shit even when you had enough agi to go surv it wasn't all that more complicated. You're just a delusional hardcore that's okay a dime a dozen. Also played fire mage which was even simpler back then. They were all simpler save for maybe healing and that was only cause of down ranking. Fact is game just became grossly more.complex and not to it's benefit.

[Deleted]

All the way to hyjal and bm was macrod into one spec. If you didn't you were terrible. I know when you lose an argument it's easier to return to insults champ but you can't argue it wasnt a thing and it's what the spec revolved around. Shit even when you had enough agi to go surv it wasn't all that more complicated. You're just a delusional hardcore that's okay a dime a dozen.

You think misdirect was your threat dump...

So how did this magical marco work? If you are talking about the auto shot steady shot that wasn't your rotation... Did you just not use serpent sting or your pet at all? Did your group consist of three shadow priests refreshing your mana?

Lay it out for me how did this work exactly because it sounds like bs.

[Niwes]

why dont have this thread a poll ?

i belive there are less than 10% votes that pruning is ok. of course if the poll states clear that we talk about the Legion style pruning, and not just to prune some unused really shitty stuff or combine 2 abilities into 1. then i give the pro-pruning side 5%. at maximum.

[Glorious Leader]

You think misdirect was your threat dump...

So how did this magical marco work? If you are talking about the auto shot steady shot that wasn't your rotation... Did you just not use serpent sting or your pet at all? Did your group consist of three shadow priests refreshing your mana?

Lay it out for me how did this work exactly because it sounds like bs.

I don't recall saying misdirect was a threat dump. You argued I'd be dead from threat I told you not when you have misdirect and you could also feign death as well. Please try to be a littl bit less disingenuous.
Iirc the macro contained kill command

https://www.worldofcorecraft.com/con...ter-2332-macro


Mana management was almost never an issue. If need be switch aspect or serpent sting but once again relative to the resource management game with focus it was incredible simple. In fact that's why focus was added in cataclysm hunters had effectively no resource management.

[Deleted]

I don't recall saying misdirect was a threat dump. You argued I'd be dead from threat I told you not when you have misdirect and you could also feign death as well. Please try to be a littl bit less disingenuous.
Iirc the macro contained kill command

https://www.worldofcorecraft.com/con...ter-2332-macro


Mana management was almost never an issue. If need be switch aspect or serpent sting but once again relative to the resource management game with focus it was incredible simple. In fact that's why focus was added in cataclysm hunters had effectively no resource management.

That wasn't your rotation though hell you just explained a part of it that was missing... Some specs had easy rotations frost mages come to mind. I just don't see why you have to make shit up...

Yes classes evolved since vanilla and tbc. The later I would argue was to make up for threat being effectively removed from the game as a mechanic.

[Glorious Leader]

That wasn't your rotation though hell you just explained a part of it that was missing... Some specs had easy rotations frost mages come to mind. I just don't see why you have to make shit up...

Yes classes evolved since vanilla and tbc. The later I would argue was to make up for threat being effectively removed from the game as a mechanic.

The macro contains kill command within it. Go back and r3ad it again. In addition to everything else I've outline as fact the following also didn't exist:

Rotation didn't change based on priority (big difference)
No kill shot, no aspect of the fox, shit I don't even remember having disengage at that point.

What complexity did they remove? Threat. Threat was not complex in the least it was an incredible simple mechanic that was made very tibial to the point that it was removed. They could ability prune to theirs hearts content and add threat back in and the game would be child's play all other things being equal to vanilla or tbc. They were not complex or complicated games in the slightest their difficulty lay in how obnoxious and time consuming and often just buggy or poorly designed the game was. It was feature and qol poor relative to today.

I'll tell you what champ. Let's trade. You take away priority based "rotations" based on rng and timers and whatever that changes what you're supposed to do on the fly and I will gladly welcome threat back as a mechanic lmao hahahhaa