Legion - Subtlety discussion

[kalaratic]

Energy Regen Video, perhaps this can be used as hard evidence?

would probably help if u showed ur haste % for each side

[elfporn]

would probably help if u showed ur haste % for each side

More than that would be recount/details showing energy gains over the same period of time, with armory/stat values.

Definitely good to know

[Smaxy]

Not sure why people want enveloping shadows baseline. Awful spell, shadow techniques by itself is enough I feel. The 40 energy cost feels terrible.

Do you guys really want to be spamming enveloping shadows in between boss pulls? Cuz that's going to be a thing if this talent is the clear choice.

I like it as an upkeep buff (remember when we had SnD?), and no- I don't mind.

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Made some posts:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...5927?page=2#38
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...5927?page=2#39
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...5927?page=2#40

[kalaratic]

great posts smaxy. hopefully celestalon looks at them like this O_O instead of the -_- we're getting from him now

[elfporn]

I like it as an upkeep buff (remember when we had SnD?), and no- I don't mind.

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Made some posts:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...5927?page=2#38
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...5927?page=2#39
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...5927?page=2#40

Good stuff! Though it seems like you're asking for too much change...but then, that's haggling, ask high, settle for the middle. Hopefully we get an acknowledgement at the very least

[Smaxy]

Thanks. Hopefully I'm not asking for too much; I mainly just want us to have meaningful talent options like the other classes, where we can shift choices depending on personal preferences and as the encounter demands. Because we are way behind as it stands.

[mindghosts]

The more i think about it.. The less i like having the vial heal. We can use that but not have poisons on our weapons? How would u guys like to see recup back instead? I mean id prefer to just have poisons back but if we cant.. How does it make sense still to give it back in the form of a really strong heal? Maybe it can stay for sin only.

[Deleted]

The more i think about it.. The less i like having the vial heal. We can use that but not have poisons on our weapons? How would u guys like to see recup back instead? I mean id prefer to just have poisons back but if we cant.. How does it make sense still to give it back in the form of a really strong heal? Maybe it can stay for sin only.

Just remove vial, and keep the our form of healing to leaching poison talent, that was you can have healing for leveling, but none for end game (since you wouldn't pick it over the other options). I don't like pure dps classes having self heals, mitigation sure, but not healing.

I was never a fan of recoup, I disliked it greatly. But to be frank, I don't see them removing vial, since loads people would freak out that we have no heal, even if you could talent one. Just look at the forums asking for BoS back, even if it was such a grossly imbalanced ability, they don't care. And the same people will ask for vial/recoup back.

[Valentyn]

Just remove vial, and keep the our form of healing to leaching poison talent, that was you can have healing for leveling, but none for end game (since you wouldn't pick it over the other options). I don't like pure dps classes having self heals, mitigation sure, but not healing.

How the heck is that going to work? Sub has No poisons at all, so how are we going to get Leeching poison? Or do you mean we they should roll back how rogues in legion work with poisons and remove their exclusivity from Assassination?

[Geckoo]

How the heck is that going to work? Sub has No poisons at all, so how are we going to get Leeching poison? Or do you mean we they should roll back how rogues in legion work with poisons and remove their exclusivity from Assassination?

Every rogue spec should have poisons. Assassination should just have better poisons and/or more interaction with them.

You can't build class fantasy™ by removing stuff that has always been a core part of the class, it's a really bad way to do anything. Poisons, specially non-lethal poisons, could and should be a core aspect of the class.

[Deleted]

How the heck is that going to work? Sub has No poisons at all, so how are we going to get Leeching poison? Or do you mean we they should roll back how rogues in legion work with poisons and remove their exclusivity from Assassination?

Sorry, I forgot to include it in my post, got tied up ranting about self healing. I'm in favor of all Rogue specs having poisons, it feels strange not been able to. Even more so if you think of poisons as an item (like how we had poison vials) sitting in your bags, not been able to use them because you forgot how to pour poison on your blades because your a sub Rogue and not Mut.

I think class fantasy should add to core abilities, like you have a cake, and your spec is the decoration on that cake. But not to lock away different parts of those core abilities, and the class your left with feeling half empty.

[Valentyn]

Every rogue spec should have poisons. Assassination should just have better poisons and/or more interaction with them.

You can't build class fantasy™ by removing stuff that has always been a core part of the class, it's a really bad way to do anything. Poisons, specially non-lethal poisons, could and should be a core aspect of the class.

Sorry, I forgot to include it in my post, got tied up ranting about self healing. I'm in favor of all Rogue specs having poisons, it feels strange not been able to. Even more so if you think of poisons as an item (like how we had poison vials) sitting in your bags, not been able to use them because you forgot how to pour poison on your blades because your a sub Rogue and not Mut.

I think class fantasy should add to core abilities, like you have a cake, and your spec is the decoration on that cake. But not to lock away different parts of those core abilities, and the class your left with feeling half empty.

I agree about it all, it's just I doubt Blizzard are going to go back and revert their rogue choices. Seems we're getting the short end of the stick and the more I look at Sub on Alpha, the more worried I get they either don't care or don't know what they're doing. Especially in regards to constantly ignoring so much feedback.

[Deleted]

Every rogue spec should have poisons. Assassination should just have better poisons and/or more interaction with them.

You can't build class fantasy™ by removing stuff that has always been a core part of the class, it's a really bad way to do anything. Poisons, specially non-lethal poisons, could and should be a core aspect of the class.

I feel you. But in their minds I think they think this:
Subtlety is all about shadows, stealth, sneaky, hit n run, and not that much about poisons.
While assassination are like a melee warlock, dot dot dot but with melee attacks.
Combat well...is just like a japanese kong fu warrior that only relies on his dodge capacity and agility.

Hmm..actually we can think of rogues as a «broad category» that include many types of «fantasies». thieves, pirates, burglars, assassins, stalkers, ninjas, dagger-freaks, lawbreakers, mutineers, spies, mercenaries, "the insullied", duelists, swashbuckers, fencers, samurai, gamblers, bandits, scouts, blade ranger, trappers, agents, on and on.
Not all of them use poisons, just a few actually. Developers chose this path I guess.

In my opinion, they can remove poisons but give us some kind of equivalent to poisons. Targets gets infected with shadow energy..or the target's own shadow periodically strikes his owner, etc. Heck..what a brainstorm I just had:P

[Zoulis]

To be honest, I really feel like we're being "punished" for being the first ones that they "gave in" to change the design. I didn't really look at any of the other feedback they got, but the first major change/revision they did and announced was with Sub Rogues and then everyone else followed. I mean you look at speccs like Fury that get constant changes vs Sub that is being shit on. I mean they won't even answer to our feedback, I wouldn't mind if they said "You know what, we'd rather have it this way because X" , that way I'd have no hope that things would change atleast. And unfortunately I do have hope, since it's not even beta yet.
And to be completely honest the specc foundations are pretty damn neat. But it's extremely rough and, i'd say, lazy.

[Geckoo]

In my opinion, they can remove poisons but give us some kind of equivalent to poisons. Targets gets infected with shadow energy..or the target's own shadow periodically strikes his owner, etc. Heck..what a brainstorm I just had:P

In my opinion the biggest problem they have when it comes down to class fantasy is that assassination and subtley are essentially in the same space (with a different approach) and adding the word 'shadow' to everything related to subtley won't fix this. They seem so determined to make them look different that they are starting to make things worse.

At least for me, while i enjoy a little shadow damage in my subtley rogue as some kind of reinforcement of the mystical aspects of the spec, right now it's getting ridiculous to the point that we are even asking them to make a shadow damage builder baseline (mostly because they refuse to 'fix' backstab). A rogue should achieve results thanks to his expertise, not because 'magic'.

I don't want to leave a shadow damage dot because 'reasons', i want to ambush my enemy from the shadows and leave him bleeding. That's the difference they don't seem to understand, subtley 'shadow' is a way to refer to stealth, not a way to define the kind of damage we should deal and the word to refer to any subtley attack... hell, maybe we are lucky and we end up with 'shadowstab', like backstab, but with shadows!

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I mean they won't even answer to our feedback, I wouldn't mind if they said "You know what, we'd rather have it this way because X" , that way I'd have no hope that things would change atleast. And unfortunately I do have hope, since it's not even beta yet.

Silence is my biggest concern.

I don't care if we don't get any change for several builds as long as we get to know the direction and goals they have with the spec, specially when we do get small changes that seem to toally ignore the feedback.

[mindghosts]

Poisons are even described as a core mechanic to rogues. I too feel its odd to take it away for spec fantasy as it also takes away from class fantasy at the same time. Theres even a poison lab in our hall that will have nothing to do with my rogue. Just give all three specs different poisons and sin the better ones. But that would require effort and by judging by our talents and recent patches thats something they dont want to give us. One can hope at least.

Some poisons that enhance shadow stuff would be our theme i guess. A weak shadow dot with 30% slow. Not as good as crippling but always something. thematically we could do a lot of cool effects with poisons and shiv effects even if that will never happen.. Poison that cloaks the enemy in shadows so he does less damage or do less healing or take less healing like wound. Shiv effect where enemy can take no action for one second. Armor debuff Poison... Shiv effect stronger armor debuff for three seconds. Idk. Doesnt even have to be our old poisons just something fun for our "fantasy". Sin can be the poison master still with the better poison and a shorter cd on shiv while us others perhaps get a longer.

[Deleted]

Is there anything new with regards to the action bar and Shadowdance. I dont think macros were working before?

[Smaxy]

Am I the only one who doesnt care about poisons? If they give us back a slow on attack like Crippling Poison theyre going to nerf our mobility, cc, or both.

It seems obvious to me that theyre being very careful about what they give specs for PvP and Id much rather have all the mobility and stuns.

[Artorius]

Just look at the forums asking for BoS back

You mean that running at 60% all the time was not balanced?

Don't forget about glyphed feint and cloak. Rogues could almost literally ignore 90% of the mechanics, lol.

I never felt like our problem was being effective, even if a lot of people complained about how shit rogues are at the beginning of the expansion and they're not wrong, but it was more like missing class favour than anything.

[Deleted]

Am I the only one who doesnt care about poisons? If they give us back a slow on attack like Crippling Poison theyre going to nerf our mobility, cc, or both.

It seems obvious to me that theyre being very careful about what they give specs for PvP and Id much rather have all the mobility and stuns.

I'm not too fussed about poisons either but i guess it will all depend on healing numbers and if caster mobility stays as it is atm. Not having wound poison could potentially cripple a lot of traditional sub comps like RMP, RMD, RLS, Thug for example, if healing is too high.

The trouble being now if we think about things realistically is that we are nearly 5 months into alpha now, with a September deadline, they will more than likely be looking at moving into beta pretty soon, so the likelyhood of sweeping changes is ever more dwindling. I'm not saying give up on suggesting changes, but its looking more and more like we are only going to get results concentrating on what we have currently as that's probably what will be taken into beta, so probably the best plan of attack.

Unfortunately a lot of people crying about losing Crip don't have alpha access so they don't understand with how caster mobility is atm and our insane mobility during burst means we actually don't really need it.