[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Are we talking about how it looks or the Set Bonus effects?

Because that would help. If it's the Set Bonus effects, the 4 piece bonus seems more interesting then the 2 piece IMO.

[Ulthane]

Are we talking about how it looks or the Set Bonus effects?

Because that would help. If it's the Set Bonus effects, the 4 piece bonus seems more interesting then the 2 piece IMO.

The effects are out of date clearly but I think he was referring to how it looks.

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Paladins Tier 19 is awesome stop complaining

Just needs to be red instead of purple and maybe half cloth/plate leg robe things

[Morally Grey Storm]

Paladins Tier 19 is awesome stop complaining

Im not complaining, Im stating.
Tier 19 is fething awful.
Looks of it, of course.

[Deleted]

Are we talking about how it looks or the Set Bonus effects?

Because that would help. If it's the Set Bonus effects, the 4 piece bonus seems more interesting then the 2 piece IMO.

Kinda both.
THe visual is lacking the certain touch of detail like the other sets are having. Just compare DK and Warri and to Paladin and you will notice several things. Or the plates on the hips that are looking like the plates where the cloth on the warden armor is conected and i am wondering since the robe has been removed if this hald kilt thing is becoming a part of the Set visual.
As for the set boni. Well they are pretty much unchanged since they have been data mind in the first place. Ret no longer has conviction with the exeption of fires of justice , and a set boni that affects solely one would be kinda weird.
And here in i am wondering what it could be. Since blizz focus right now on ret is heavily based on the HP consumer , and less on everything else including generators , i would assume it has something to do with the basic output of our finishers or their HP consumption ( but not generation ).

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Kinda both.
THe visual is lacking the certain touch of detail like the other sets are having. Just compare DK and Warri and to Paladin and you will notice several things. Or the plates on the hips that are looking like the plates where the cloth on the warden armor is conected and i am wondering since the robe has been removed if this hald kilt thing is becoming a part of the Set visual.
As for the set boni. Well they are pretty much unchanged since they have been data mind in the first place. Ret no longer has conviction with the exeption of fires of justice , and a set boni that affects solely one would be kinda weird.
And here in i am wondering what it could be. Since blizz focus right now on ret is heavily based on the HP consumer , and less on everything else including generators , i would assume it has something to do with the basic output of our finishers or their HP consumption ( but not generation ).

Well knowing how they're trying to link things to Judgement and then making the finishers do more damage because of it(Really it seems like it's just Colossus Smash gameplay which is..odd but whatever not my thing).

Probably connected to that. But things change in Alpha so /shrug

[Demsi]

Im not complaining, Im stating.
Tier 19 is fething awful.
Looks of it, of course.

But that's where you're wrong.

Hey, i'm just stating.

[Lumineus]

I also find it quite ironic. Seeing as the Tier 19 is obviously a hommage to Tier 2. With Tier 2 being named the Judgement Armor and now in Legion having our playstyle revolving around Judgement.
Yet Judge has a skirt,kilt,robe-whatever.And with that it would actually be cool us having a set that has these half skirt warden cloth thingys instead of fullblown robe or nothing at all.
In short: Half-skirt-warden-thingy or riot.

I think it's intended to homage D1 Lightforge, really. That's why the Mythic set has purple accents instead of black, and why the Normal/Heroic is crowned/hoodless instead of hooded/uncrowned.

[Deleted]

Well knowing how they're trying to link things to Judgement and then making the finishers do more damage because of it(Really it seems like it's just Colossus Smash gameplay which is..odd but whatever not my thing).

Probably connected to that. But things change in Alpha so /shrug

Current Legion ret is somewhat a mix between WoD Arms Warri and Destrulock with Charred Remains as in our Ressource generating Abilites are doing fuck all dmg but to compensate this our Consumer are dealing a massiv amount of damage , just only with that Colossal Judgement System thing built into it.
Essentially this is also where i think Echo of the Highlord plays in and why it is currently - and will stay for at least 2 months that way - useless and does next to nothing in the first place. Because they want to look into how things are going to play out in praxis instead of just the theory and later on in the Beta the Numbers are going to be adressed. Yet here in is the Problem. If our main source of dps are the Consumers , how exactly should they be balancing/designing this without making Ret without the trait quit a bit too weak or opposite of that far too strong.
We already can see this , and i am honestly not sure how this is exactly the case and why it is so , where Ret in PvE deals just a pathetic amount of dps in that we not only do less than 50% of what most others are doing , but are also even below disc priests.
Yet in PvP we are dmg wise the fucking 80s Movie Serial killer that moonwalks calmy to someone and snatches em up and tears them into a apart in this we are dealing somewhat high-ish dmg. Which is to some degree inteanded of course and i believe it could even be a bit higher , or remain as it is if other are getting lowered to a degree.

And then of course we have the unknown of the new Tier Boni that we will be getting and things like the Legendarys where we do not know how exactly they will play out in this overall.
Yet from the overall design in ret has quite some downsides in terms of flexibility for most bossfights in regards to movement , targetswitches , hard switches from ST to AE/Cleave - vice versa. And the only way for how i can think of how this design could be working , is if ret just deals an immense amount of DPS in the certain brackets where are in and - like it is with Warlock - we are fixed to one or two targets but our main dps sources are just hitting like a truck at supersonic speed. Or in other words we would have to become the new mix of arcane-sub-affli in order for this design to work out.
Yet the numbers will only be really a point of concern once the beta is being set in place and the first testing periods are going through.
Which simply means we will only at the very end of the Legion Testing period know if we are fucked or not.

TL'DR. We either have to hope that things are still subject to change in a greater sense of the overall design or we have to hope that Ret is going to be dealing really big dick dps.
- My usual M.O in this is: Don't exept anything but the worst. With that you are prepared once things go awoll and if not you will be pleasintly surprised.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I'd like to think our main source is our generators and our consumers but that's just me. Seems better that way.

[Deleted]

I think it's intended to homage D1 Lightforge, really. That's why the Mythic set has purple accents instead of black, and why the Normal/Heroic is crowned/hoodless instead of hooded/uncrowned.

Could also be the case. Yet i do not think that since this set isn't one of the more recognisable like Tier 2. Also it has probably something to do with all the fan art and such and Blizz thought that this would be more fitting since we got the Ashbringer instead of a simple Dungeon Tier.
And keep in mind that Tier 17 nhc and hc is a hommage to Tier 4 and yet there are some major differences between the two and still quite some similiarities.

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I'd like to think our main source is our generators and our consumers but that's just me. Seems better that way.

Agreed , but then there is the question how much difference between the two there should be or else we will end up with a similiar design as MoP/WoD.
And this would help in making Talents like Divine Hammer More attractive since it isn't that good exept in full blown AE fights without much of a ST component in it. Since the loss of additional HP AND dmg is quite some loss for AE to have it permenantly in a specific fight.
But this could be easily solved with us having DH per baseline and instead of DH as a Talent we could then choose to take in a talent that improves DH further.
This would help us in more than one way.

[Morally Grey Storm]

But that's where you're wrong.

Hey, i'm just stating.

must apply more Silver Hand Emblems.

[ruiizu]

but are also even below disc priest

Source? Also keep in mind numbers haven't be tuned and PvP has its own stat template, so it's very easy to balance since gear never changes.

[Deleted]

Source? Also keep in mind numbers haven't be tuned and PvP has its own stat template, so it's very easy to balance since gear never changes.

Logs WL that i have found , also the ones from Thete - from which where i got that ret can also deal less dps than a disc priest.
And jup , numbers haven't been adressed which is naturally being done in the middle of the Beta and carved into stone for at least some time at the very end of the Beta. One of my main graps with the current ret shabang as i have so rarely mentioned.
And too at least some degree one of the reasons why Echo current , and probably even Divine Tempest , doesn't do anything besides some smallish effect some glowy thingy.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/6gj9WRAkh1b3BdHQ

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/pVzcNvmZPJT3qLxG

With his logs here , be carefull because the trash has been , for whatever reason , counted towards the whole boss fights and thats why the group overall does so little dps. But in raids we have a very similiar picture with numbers ranging that mages and hunters and monks and such doing 200-500k+ dps and the ret sitting at a mere 150k. Overall speaking Ret is currently , in PvE at least , ironicly far away from being the immense Juggernaut we are supposed to be and in fact quite weak.
Curtesy from Thete and shamelessly stolen from him.

And for PvP this can get really fast a bit complicated because if PvE is too weak and the WPdmg is getting buffed , then this probably will be a increase for PvP aswell. In that they should completly differentiate between the two fields as in having also two different WPdmg numbers and such for the two fields.
Or else this would mean one of the two is getting the short end of the stick , one way or the other. For example if Rets WPdmg gets buffed in order to make us competitive in PvE , this would then mean that Rets STR in PvP would be getting nerfed. Which in turn wouldn't only mean that the one buffed attack is becoming weaker , but everything - litteraly -. Every other attack , including our damn defence and the already somewhat pitifull selfhealing.

Don't really see another way out of this exept of having two entirely different template for EVERYTHING in both PvE and PvP.

[Kelemar]

Source? Also keep in mind numbers haven't be tuned and PvP has its own stat template, so it's very easy to balance since gear never changes.

Thete's logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/pVzcNvmZPJT3qLxG

I really hope Blizzard is aware of the fact that many Rets are very dissatisfied with how Legion Ret plays. We can see that by the many Ret redesign threads every one week or so and many of us coming up with ideas just how to make that clusterf*ck (sorry for the expression) that is Legion Ret work.

Thete does not seem to be too pleased either in his videos (maybe I'm wrong here, and thank you for the videos btw!), and Drownlord seems also to be dissatisfied when it comes to a PvP perspective, though that might also be my imagination.

The whole mechanic around Judgment, aka Colossus Smash, just does not sit well with me. Tbh, I hate it. Our current rotation feels off, somehow... and with no procs whatsoever to spice things up a bit, then the arguably worst talent choices that they could've possibly imagined (Equality says hi), coupled with the fact that save WoA all other artifact talents are basically just +% talents (even our final traits like Echo and Tempest), no real AoE capabilities, no movement speed increase baseline...

The current Judgment debuff is also hurting the PvPers. You lose on damage, because you can't just save your Judgment for when you finally get into melee range.

If they really, really wanted to make Retribution a fun spec but with a greater focus on melee, they could've accomplished it through easier means.

> Exorcism to 12y range (there was never a need to replace Exorcism... BoJ is just not an iconic ability and sounds stupid in my not-native-English ears)
> Exorcism getting the "Virtue's Blade" treatment (to give us scaling for once)
> Judgment doing shit damage when more than 10yards away from your target (maybe not even granting HP?)
> EmpDS removed, Divine Purpose baseline (so our on demand AoE isn't reduced because of a procc chance)
> HoW not available during AW (to reduce burst)
> Holy Avenger replaced with just a +20% Haste Seal of Light
> Divine Purpose talent replaced with Justicar's Vengeance

And for the PvP crowd:

> Repentance instant cast and longer cooldown
> Blinding Light lower cooldown (which they did, so hurray for that I guess)
> Tirion's Leap (or Turalyon's Might, doesn't matter) -> instant gap closer on 30sec cd

I'm aware, many are tired of reading suggestions and reworks, but that just testifies with how many people there are that don't like the current iteration of our beloved spec.

There's just so much that I don't understand. With the removal of Hand of Light, there is only Hand of Hindrance left?! Why would you rename the current hands then? Just call HoH something like Burden of Guilt and the Hand spells could've retained their name, though to be honest not many of them remain either.

As already stated, BoJ seems to be a new ability just for the sake of having a new ability, disregarding the fact that we basically lost an ability that should've been the current BoJ all along.

Mastery change and Colossus Smash window... whyyyyy

Yeah I know, the sky is not falling yet. But Legion Ret just looks so much worse than live Ret. wtb T15 playstyle.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Before I sleep, I don't care for the Colossus Smash gameplay. I don't see a big deal as in why it's so interesting. It MIGHT and I highly emphasize MIGHT if the Holy Power mechanic wasn't a thing. Seems like a lot to shake at the same time being aware of game mechanics. I can only speak for myself it'd be a massive challenge. I'm sure for some people here that's fun but for me, not really and I would say it wouldn't feel fun.


Also I think Blizz should remember Rets always had more Melee abilities. Sure we had a few ranged attacks but we do know Paladins are capable of ranged attacks. Just don't emphasize range attacks, have a few around.

[Ulthane]

Before I sleep, I don't care for the Colossus Smash gameplay. I don't see a big deal as in why it's so interesting. It MIGHT and I highly emphasize MIGHT if the Holy Power mechanic wasn't a thing. Seems like a lot to shake at the same time being aware of game mechanics. I can only speak for myself it'd be a massive challenge. I'm sure for some people here that's fun but for me, not really and I would say it wouldn't feel fun.


Also I think Blizz should remember Rets always had more Melee abilities. Sure we had a few ranged attacks but we do know Paladins are capable of ranged attacks. Just don't emphasize range attacks, have a few around.

Goes back to an old day suggestion I had waaaay back when in Wrath.

Crusader Strike off CD and generates Mana
DS and other such used mana.

So in todays world you would see cooldowns on abilities and then one spam consumer.

TV has a cd, consumes mana
DS has a cd, consumes mana
Blade of Justice, generates Mana
Crusader Strike, no cd, generates Mana
Judgment, consumes mana, spammable, perhaps same effect as it is now?

Mastery would be what it is but with an added twist, take the concept of the mastery from Arcane mages and apply it here?

You could mix and match and go on forever but yea. Heck Justicar's Vengeance could be an ability that just consumes all of your mana. I mean removing Holy Power you could do a ton afterwards. Heck its been suggested that Holy Power become a primary resource and rets no longer use mana. At this point however the best you can do is suggest what could be put into the build you see now and find something to do with Equality if they want to keep it, otherwise destroy it.

[Wickedsage]

Before I sleep, I don't care for the Colossus Smash gameplay. I don't see a big deal as in why it's so interesting. It MIGHT and I highly emphasize MIGHT if the Holy Power mechanic wasn't a thing. Seems like a lot to shake at the same time being aware of game mechanics. I can only speak for myself it'd be a massive challenge. I'm sure for some people here that's fun but for me, not really and I would say it wouldn't feel fun.


Also I think Blizz should remember Rets always had more Melee abilities. Sure we had a few ranged attacks but we do know Paladins are capable of ranged attacks. Just don't emphasize range attacks, have a few around.

they need to make it holy avanger imo the whole generators and spenders do more dmg at judgement targets basicly the mastery we had before it was just spenders that or go back to the arms warrior of mastery increases dmg of x skills boring and crap but it would be better then not having mass judgement when we need to use ds

Goes back to an old day suggestion I had waaaay back when in Wrath.

Crusader Strike off CD and generates Mana
DS and other such used mana.

So in todays world you would see cooldowns on abilities and then one spam consumer.

TV has a cd, consumes mana
DS has a cd, consumes mana
Blade of Justice, generates Mana
Crusader Strike, no cd, generates Mana
Judgment, consumes mana, spammable, perhaps same effect as it is now?

Mastery would be what it is but with an added twist, take the concept of the mastery from Arcane mages and apply it here?.

i hate arcane mages mastery really i just suck at it but really i rather have a rage bar /energy regen/ holy power of 0/100 that would make use not needing mana having to be soo freakin high like 550000 mana for tv/ds (over exaggerating i know)

[Ryuji]

Goes back to an old day suggestion I had waaaay back when in Wrath.

Crusader Strike off CD and generates Mana
DS and other such used mana.

So in todays world you would see cooldowns on abilities and then one spam consumer.

TV has a cd, consumes mana
DS has a cd, consumes mana
Blade of Justice, generates Mana
Crusader Strike, no cd, generates Mana
Judgment, consumes mana, spammable, perhaps same effect as it is now?

Mastery would be what it is but with an added twist, take the concept of the mastery from Arcane mages and apply it here?

You could mix and match and go on forever but yea. Heck Justicar's Vengeance could be an ability that just consumes all of your mana. I mean removing Holy Power you could do a ton afterwards. Heck its been suggested that Holy Power become a primary resource and rets no longer use mana. At this point however the best you can do is suggest what could be put into the build you see now and find something to do with Equality if they want to keep it, otherwise destroy it.

As cool as that sounds, it sounds pretty similar to how Enhancement's gonna work in Legion what with generating and consuming maelstrom. I'm excited to try that but that's shaman, not paladin stuff so... yeah.

What I'd like is to have Consecration baseline and have Light's Hammer be a thing for more than just Holy paladins. and Divine Steed baseline, 30 sec cd default. I don't have alpha but how exactly does Divine Hammer feel? Worth it to even bother using? Seems the HP generation loss doesn't make up for the damage, though said damage looks awful on paper.

Also they seriously should just make Seal of Light give back haste and movement speed for the duration, would make it worth using imo.

[Deleted]

Thete's logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/pVzcNvmZPJT3qLxG

I really hope Blizzard is aware of the fact that many Rets are very dissatisfied with how Legion Ret plays. We can see that by the many Ret redesign threads every one week or so and many of us coming up with ideas just how to make that clusterf*ck (sorry for the expression) that is Legion Ret work.

Thete does not seem to be too pleased either in his videos (maybe I'm wrong here, and thank you for the videos btw!), and Drownlord seems also to be dissatisfied when it comes to a PvP perspective, though that might also be my imagination.

The whole mechanic around Judgment, aka Colossus Smash, just does not sit well with me. Tbh, I hate it. Our current rotation feels off, somehow... and with no procs whatsoever to spice things up a bit, then the arguably worst talent choices that they could've possibly imagined (Equality says hi), coupled with the fact that save WoA all other artifact talents are basically just +% talents (even our final traits like Echo and Tempest), no real AoE capabilities, no movement speed increase baseline...

The current Judgment debuff is also hurting the PvPers. You lose on damage, because you can't just save your Judgment for when you finally get into melee range.

If they really, really wanted to make Retribution a fun spec but with a greater focus on melee, they could've accomplished it through easier means.



And for the PvP crowd:




I'm aware, many are tired of reading suggestions and reworks, but that just testifies with how many people there are that don't like the current iteration of our beloved spec.

There's just so much that I don't understand. With the removal of Hand of Light, there is only Hand of Hindrance left?! Why would you rename the current hands then? Just call HoH something like Burden of Guilt and the Hand spells could've retained their name, though to be honest not many of them remain either.

As already stated, BoJ seems to be a new ability just for the sake of having a new ability, disregarding the fact that we basically lost an ability that should've been the current BoJ all along.

Mastery change and Colossus Smash window... whyyyyy

Yeah I know, the sky is not falling yet. But Legion Ret just looks so much worse than live Ret. wtb T15 playstyle.

Yup. That comes back to my first impression of this redesign wich was: WHY?!

Ret was fun, was in a good place, it was refined during 3 expansions after the last redesign, wasn't overpowered... so, why? Only blizzard knows. We have left lots of feedback and sugestions. I'm sure they know, they just don't care. They want to push this vision of Ret and they are the bosses at the end of the day. All we can do is put up with it, reroll or stop playing. I wish they listened instead... but it hasnt happened for the last 4 months. I don't see them starting now.

[Ulthane]

As cool as that sounds, it sounds pretty similar to how Enhancement's gonna work in Legion what with generating and consuming maelstrom. I'm excited to try that but that's shaman, not paladin stuff so... yeah.

What I'd like is to have Consecration baseline and have Light's Hammer be a thing for more than just Holy paladins. and Divine Steed baseline, 30 sec cd default. I don't have alpha but how exactly does Divine Hammer feel? Worth it to even bother using? Seems the HP generation loss doesn't make up for the damage, though said damage looks awful on paper.

Also they seriously should just make Seal of Light give back haste and movement speed for the duration, would make it worth using imo.

Was just throwing the basic thought process out there if we didnt have holy power.

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they need to make it holy avanger imo the whole generators and spenders do more dmg at judgement targets basicly the mastery we had before it was just spenders that or go back to the arms warrior of mastery increases dmg of x skills boring and crap but it would be better then not having mass judgement when we need to use ds



i hate arcane mages mastery really i just suck at it but really i rather have a rage bar /energy regen/ holy power of 0/100 that would make use not needing mana having to be soo freakin high like 550000 mana for tv/ds (over exaggerating i know)

Just the issue with us is if we dont use Holy Power or how it is now the mastery gonna get changed significantly.

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I recall someone saying Divine Storm got an animation change again? Does anyone have a video of it?

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..hmm... Greater Blessing of Wisdom... now its 1% every 15 seconds. Does the tick start right away? If so is it possible to spam it on healers one at a time or something to regen a chunk of their mana? Though you are doing no dps at this point and time you can spam them to get their mana back?