Exams/Certificates are worthless

[Paperfox]

At my workplace there are certain skills that one needs and you can only get one particular skill by taking a course and/or challenging an exam. If you fail to pass the exam (pass grade is 80% btw), and you can only re-try it twice (so a total of 3 failures) then you become that much less versatile. For entry level staff this particular skill is quite key to a lot of their duties, so I can't imagine them having their term extended.

[Tuesdays]

If you don't have said skills and certs, you will be fired for lying, or just fired for sucking at your job.

All they want is someone who is a perfect cog in the machine, someone they don't have to train, someone who doesn't think outside the box, someone whos happy to be overworked and underpaid, and someone who comes to work every day.

Companies are eliminating jobs, they need new cogs with even more experience to fill the gaps.

Companies are actually reducing their chance at hiring experienced workers in the future, by asking for a degrees and 3-10 years experience, overall reducing the amount of experienced workers with degrees.

Before you could quit school, get a job and work your way up. Suddenly a huge push for college came, followed by 'you'll even have to get a diploma to work at Mc Donalds!' Now that the market is absolutely flooded with both experienced and inexperienced degree holders, they can cherry pick the best of the best, leaving everyone else high and dry.

Right now college is a huge gamble, even if it has a good placement program, and on site training. There just isn't the demand, and with productivity at its peek, you have gargantuan shoes to fill no matter what you get.

In short are they worthless? No, but not worth much unless you know someone, or hit it off with HR.

[Ragnarohk]

I've seen something similar time after time.

The notion that tests are extremely important places students in a position where they study and cram JUSTto pass the test. I was somewhat like that with some courses (anatomy mostly), you just memorized and crammed as much as posible to vomit it all out at the test. What happens next? All those miniscule details you memorized will probably disapear from your mind quickly.

The system should instead remind us that we are studying to learn and build our human capital (skills and knowledge), not just to pass tests.

I adopted this mentality last year and it has improved my quality of life as a student. When I did my pediatrics clerkship I knew I was't going to be a pediatrician, so I limited myself to learn the basics and topics I actually found interesting (unlike my friends that where trying to memorize useless crap such as the dosage of 2nd line drugs for HIV+ toddlers, or the algorythm to differentiate extremely rare heart malformations that they will probably never ever see during their careers) do they remember all those facts today? No. Do they remember the basic and esential topics? Barely. Why? They studied to pass a test, not to learn. They want to cram all the tiny details without trying to understand the big picture.

[chazus]

It is in UK. The teachers worship this concept to the end of the earth. I was taught that, high school education will ensure me a job after leaving, but none of the interviewers asked me for them.

I find it odd (from an American perspective) that people are expecting jobs of any quality coming out of high school. Is college/university not assumed the next step? People who aren't going to college here.. the next question is "Wait, did you finish high school?" Because if you didn't, you probably aren't getting hired. Not because high school is 'important' so much as... if you didn't complete it, something is wrong.

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I was asked to provide was proof of High School Graduation.

They're looking for notes of catastrophic failure. Getting good grades is not interesting or noteworthy. Not finishing HS is an indication of a poor employee hire.

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The notion that tests are extremely important places students in a position where they study and cram JUSTto pass the test.

Oftentimes education systems (teachers and professors) push this idea because either A) They get a pay raise if lots of people get good grades, or B) The entire district gets education budget expansions if lots of people get good grades/graduate.

They're literally getting paid more for you to get good grades... So important for them to either A) Find a system that helps teach you better or B) Flub the system so you get good grades even if you don't learn anything or C) Fake information entirely or pass you because you 'have potential'

[Jakexe]

My job is entirely based on grades. Only those with with an average of 85+ during 3rd year could apply. Granted that's a university job aimed at students but still, grades were the first requirement. Still in the job after graduating and it's opened up dozens of contacts for post-grad work.

[breadisfunny]

You made your own mistake. Next time choose a program with an internship and be active in clubs, magazines etc.

thats not very nice tennisace. maybe op didn't know his degree would be worthless.

[Moon-Man]

I am sick and tried people saying that taking school exams are important for life, this is a biased flat out lie, it needs attention and it needs to be challenged.
I finished school, thinking how my grades would affect my chances of getting a job, the result? out of my 13 interviews, no one asked for proof of my grades or my certificates. I also gathered feedback at the end of the interviews, and the reason I was picked was because of my experience in certain field and funny enough because of my hobbies. (1 hobby was, developing 2D games with friends ) Overall I had 5 offers out of 13 interviews, but I declined, too far away.

I attended couple of events that offer apprenticeships, internships for games development and most of teams are self studied programming/problem solving, though 100% of them never asked, "how many good grades in school you got'? They were straight to the point regarding my experience and the their main advice for me was always to improve my "soft skills" (good organisational skills, co-operating with the team effectively) etc etc.

I am not bashing education, but I am bashing the education system that is in place now, where teachers from their biased mouths spew non-sense how a good grade would lead to a better life, can someone please explain to me why there is a high level of un-employment amongst graduates ? even worse where amongst those who leave high school with just exam results.

Some might disagree with me, but from my experience, my brother's (3 years younger), my class mates experience, is that they were never asked to use their exam certificates to lets say "boost" their career and most of the time, the learning in school is a waste since you forget the half of it after like 6 months times.

It is a must have if you want to be a doctor.

[breadisfunny]

It is a must have if you want to be a doctor.

that's on the high end of the scale though....

[Deldavala]

I had to prove my degree when I first started job hunting. They didnt matter with my grades, but I still had to prove that I took 2 bachelors and an MBA in 5.5 years. Most people thought I flat out lied on my resume.

Now days when I hire(Just hired 2 people yesterday) I dont look at grades, but rather how they can fit into the work environment and what they can bring to our team. This can be projects they have done, Hobbies, specialities, where they want to grow/what they want to learn and so forth.

@Deruyter you probably do something similar?

[Rukh]

I prefer to not lie to potential employers, so actually having the certs/degree is important. Having certs is nice on a resume in the IT world, worth more than a degree in some cases.

[chazus]

I still had to prove that I took 2 bachelors and an MBA in 5.5 years.

If I were hiring someone on any kind of academic scale, I'd definitely ask for proof that you did ~10 years of school in half the time.

[Deldavala]

If I were hiring someone on any kind of academic scale, I'd definitely ask for proof that you did ~10 years of school in half the time.

I understand them completly. I would probably ask for proof myself.

[ElDoorO]

Good education doesn't guarantee you a job, nor does it entitle you to one. This part of the lessen is often skipped in school, because we falsly expect adolecent humans to come to this conclusion by themselves while at that age the thing they usually care most about is gettin' some tail.

The words told to me and pretty much everyone else I knew growing up was: College guarantees you a job. You don't want to be flipping burgers do you?

This implies several things I'd like the 50+ crowd to understand their failures in.

First, they failed to take into account that not only does college not guarantee a job like it did them (remember, this generation didn't even need a college degree to get a well paying job!) -- it can also actively hinder your options if you choose the "wrong" field. The joke growing up was get a degree, any degree, under water basket weaving is acceptable.

Secondly, they directly implied that at the very least you'd be doing more than flipping burgers. Now they say "what? You're too good to flip burgers?" -- idiotic baby boomers is what it is.

Finally, they actively put new barriers to make it harder for people to get into their own field. It's the baby boomers who put in all kinds of safety regulations, college requirements, etc... -- the barrier to entry is *much* higher now in any college field than it was back in their day. So they consciously brought this on us.

tl;dr: People trusted their parents and their parents were wrong but the parents won't accept responsibility for leading kids wrong all the kids life, so they blame the kids.

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I prefer to not lie to potential employers, so actually having the certs/degree is important. Having certs is nice on a resume in the IT world, worth more than a degree in some cases.

In IT you're looking at CCNA, CCNP, CCIE will matter (though, to be fair, you're job is going to be paying for the CCIE probably).

A+, Network+, etc don't really matter. MC** rarely matter. Your experience or projects (even hobbies) will matter more.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

This whole thread needs a *Your Mileage may vary* Disclaimer.

[kail]

It entirely depends on what field you're looking into. Wanting to practice medicine, yes grades will help make the path easier. Want to work in most IT related jobs or as a technical engineer? Certs and experience are you're friend. Nothing is worthless in terms of education, just not helpful for what you want.

I do hope that our generation of parents and teachers change to this outlook. Lost count how many time's the class was told that straight A students where the one's that get the high paying jobs, where those just passing or failing make it nowhere. It wasn't until a couple of years ago I learned how misleading they were.

[chazus]

This implies several things I'd like the 50+ crowd to understand their failures in. .. idiotic baby boomers is what it is.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say, but you're blaming the "Baby Boomers" for mistakes when it's really not their fault, not inherently anyway. This is the same thing every several generations goes through over the past couple hundred years. Humans are progressing and changing so quickly now that paradigm shifts occur within a matter of a generation or two, instead of over a century.

There is no way "Baby Boomers" could have predicted the job market accurately in the 90s and 00's. Just as people from the 80s/90s could never have predicted how quickly things like software development and automation is kicking manufacturing and physical services to the curb.

People from the 30's and 40's told Baby Boomers pretty much similar (but relevant to their era) and were horribly wrong. They also thought the baby boomer's music was awful. And to get off their lawn.

People from the 60's and 70's told us in the current job market how important school and college was and how the job market works, and were horribly wrong. They ALSO think our music is awful. And to get off their lawn.

It's just the way of things, and that people with great life experience try to help and pass that on to future generations... Usually screwing it up further in the process.

[Rennadrel]

also this.. which is why I laugh when people in the US want free college... a degree here will be nothing more than glorified HS (some already are).

Doesn't help when you already have bullshit degrees like feminist studies and a myriad of social and arts degrees which are nothing more than overpriced daycare programs.

[Deleted]

I had to prove my degree when I first started job hunting. They didnt matter with my grades, but I still had to prove that I took 2 bachelors and an MBA in 5.5 years. Most people thought I flat out lied on my resume.

Now days when I hire(Just hired 2 people yesterday) I dont look at grades, but rather how they can fit into the work environment and what they can bring to our team. This can be projects they have done, Hobbies, specialities, where they want to grow/what they want to learn and so forth.

@Deruyter you probably do something similar?

I share your approach.
I never looked at someones grades. I actually don't think anyone applying here has ever added them to their resume either.

Whenever there is a job opening, we get LOADS of replies. Seems sometimes the number of people responding grows every year.
The things that we look at are generally the same as Deldavala; experience, specialties and personal interests. And no, we don't ask for 5 years experience if it's an entry level job, but if you have zero experience at all you are apparently not really interested in the field.

We are also interested at the applicants personal/future growth plans. When you get invited for an interview, this is what can make (or break) you and land you the job.
It's always surprising how few people actually have a plan at all. Some even state they finished school so that's it, no more learning. They "just want to earn money now, no more studying". Luckily, we are better at filtering these people out in the early stages of the process these days.

[Ryme]

I lied about my grades got my first job and springboarded from that to launch my career. I was checked out later, but I had the experience by that point where I didn't need to lie.

What I did, though, was quite illegal and could have landed me in some serious troubles if I was caught. I got lucky, I don't think it's worth the risk and would push my kids to get the grades they deserve.

[LilSaihah]

My interests Programming/Web-Development/Game Development. They are hardly entry jobs, I know for a fact that my interviewer hired me, because of my knowledge in script programming rather than looking at my IT grade. I am talking about not degrees, but high-school grades and certs.

Yeah those are jobs which degrees won't really work for because your learning isn't abstract, it's practical. They don't need to ask you what you learnt about coding you just code something and you show it to them.

If you're in a more theoretical field then maybe diplomas will be more helpful.