1. #4401
    Quote Originally Posted by mkultra55 View Post
    Is it really crippling? Without the former Legacy of the Void to amp up SWP isn't missing a refresh just a lost Global? I understand that for a true min/maxer those Globals eat into DPS potential but is that really crippling to our damage? Am I missing something?
    It adds up. Every global counts, having to waste more time on putting up dots on targets you could've refreshed with Void Bolt for free means less time to dot, for example, new adds that spawned. It's difficult to keep track of all your dots, finding which dots were the first ones you casted and then you need to have to be quick about target switching too. Messing up can lead into a domino effect of more failure. It's not equally relevant in all scenarios but when we're talking heavy multidot it definitely matters how many refreshes you miss.

  2. #4402
    For the people that have alpha and its experienced with how shadow is doing right now, what should we do in this heavy adds situation?

    1:13m


    Should we try to keep boss + 2 targets dotted?
    Should we forget adds and just dps boss?
    Should we try to shadow word: pain as much as we can to work with SoI?
    Can we compete with other class on this heavy aoe situation with our current tools not counting legendaries?

  3. #4403
    Dreadlord RsinRC's Avatar
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    I find it interesting that everyone at this point basically know all the issues shadow have but put it out there on different tones lol. Overall with the current build shadow has its niche still intact, st and council, but because of this it turns out that any thing beyond this is troublesome. No clear view on what it is we need to do.

    @Kretan I understand your pov about how you'd be ok with great st dps but think about it. Dont you think people will feel some type of way that on an encounter with one target Shadow will blow everyone out the water? Do you honestly think that us having great st dps will be an outcome when they have always tried and match all dps specs as close as possible?
    At the same time, with that in mind, dont you see why some players want to know and be guaranteed that shadow will do great in aoe? No matter the amount of targets when other specs can do both st and ae and pull good numbers regardless how hard or easy it may be to pull it off.

    Also I dont mind having core mechanics being put on an outside source. However that legendary ring has a 10 yrd radius on it so i can see it being more valuable in dungeons and CMs. So what i see is people wanting to get a "legendary" to become more efficient in dungeons.

    At this point we just have to wait and see what everyone as a whole can do in any given circumstance but if more than a handful of specs can perform better overall in any situation but shadow lacks in some fights but equal in others, imo, theres an issue.
    Last edited by RsinRC; 2016-04-05 at 03:23 PM.

  4. #4404
    Quote Originally Posted by Isentropy View Post
    It adds up. Every global counts, having to waste more time on putting up dots on targets you could've refreshed with Void Bolt for free means less time to dot, for example, new adds that spawned. It's difficult to keep track of all your dots, finding which dots were the first ones you casted and then you need to have to be quick about target switching too. Messing up can lead into a domino effect of more failure. It's not equally relevant in all scenarios but when we're talking heavy multidot it definitely matters how many refreshes you miss.
    I agree that lost GCD's impact DPS potential but I question the idea that missing a single refresh is really as devastating as you say. Of course a top tier player who never misses a refresh will parse higher than an average player but we're not talking about a WOD Affliction Lock missing out on an Agony refresh here.

  5. #4405
    Quote Originally Posted by Acquila View Post
    For the people that have alpha and its experienced with how shadow is doing right now, what should we do in this heavy adds situation?

    1:13m


    Should we try to keep boss + 2 targets dotted?
    Should we forget adds and just dps boss?
    Should we try to shadow word: pain as much as we can to work with SoI?
    Can we compete with other class on this heavy aoe situation with our current tools not counting legendaries?
    You'd always want to keep the boss dotted and keep it as your main target for Void Bolt, if you have the clarity of mind you can target switch between the boss and some of the elementals you have SW:P on. Depending on where the adds spawn (which depends on where the frost patches are) you should try and put SW:P on as many as possible before they reach melee. They have a slight delay before they actually start walking so you should be able to dot up a fair few with SW:P. At that point you have no other choice but to Mind Sear, sadly. Shadow Crash could be ok (if properly tuned) but the other two add phases don't really favor Shadow Crash, and in general adds spawn too infrequently for Shadow Crash to ever be good here.

    Can we compete with specs that have great burst AoE here? No, of course not, not right now anyway. On the plus side the fire adds and arcane adds favor multidotting much more than the frost adds, so overall shadow wouldn't be horrible at this fight. But yes, we definitely need some more AoE tools besides Mind Sear.

    Quote Originally Posted by mkultra55 View Post
    I agree that lost GCD's impact DPS potential but I question the idea that missing a single refresh is really as devastating as you say. Of course a top tier player who never misses a refresh will parse higher than an average player but we're not talking about a WOD Affliction Lock missing out on an Agony refresh here.
    As I said, it adds up. I'm talking missing refreshes when you should've been able to get them - it's inevitable that you'll have to put your dots on targets again when there's more than 3 targets and in those cases losing globals adds up real quick. Every time you miss a refresh (when you shouldn't have) you're essentially one global behind, which can lead to being more globals behind. It's far more than just a small optimization.
    Last edited by Isentropy; 2016-04-05 at 03:29 PM.

  6. #4406
    Quote Originally Posted by l33t View Post
    In general, its looks just like you want to believe that this time it'd be OK

    Also, even if we don't touch the aspect of why should we grind boars to get a tool into our toolkit which always should be there and which other specs possess without any boar grinding, I seriously doubt legendaries would work in CMs. I've heard no info on that, but by fact legendary effects like that ring are very similar to tier set bonuses in terms of class mechanics changes, and tier sets usually don't work in CMs.

    About traits: nothing is gamebreaking. We can play Shadow even if they remove everything and leave only blast, dots and flay. But having nine support trait points in artifact - compared to 4-7 in other specs artifacts - and at the same time having to waste all nine points to get to gold traits - while other specs have to waste 0-3 max - definitely will feel very unrewarding. Instead of feeling liek you're upgrading and getting better, you will feel like you're gimped over that nine points. Well, I hope some of you guys reposted my research on that matter to alpha forums so it would be fixed. Its not that hard to fix, really.
    That first line is what I'm talking about. Negative just because negative. I'd rather have a constructive discussion/argument on the topic than read people's personal need to vent frustration every other post. There will be a time to criticize tuning...now isn't the time though.

    Challenge modes in legion are fundamentally different than they are in wod. The only place in the game in which legendaries are disabled are pvp and the legendary ban at the beginning of a tier.....there's no point in assuming it's being banned anywhere else until its stated. Just to humor the idea, I would argue that it would be ridiculous not to include legendaries in CM...the whole point is that they scale infinitely....and legendaries offer heavy scaling. Legendaries make most sense in CMs.

    I agree on the utility aspect of some of our artifact traits. it's not a huge deal, but it's clunky right now and could be improved. Granted, the psychic horror one is bound to change now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RsinRC View Post
    I find it interesting that everyone at this point basically know all the issues shadow have but put it out there on different tones lol. Overall with the current build shadow has its niche still intact, st and council, but because of this it turns out that any thing beyond this is troublesome. No clear view on what it is we need to do.

    @Kretan I understand your pov about how you'd be ok with great st dps but think about it. Dont you think people will feel some type of way that on an encounter with one target Shadow will blow everyone out the water? Do you honestly think that us having great st dps will be an outcome when they have always tried and match all dps specs as close as possible?
    At the same time, with that in mind, dont you see why some players want to know and be guaranteed that shadow will do great in aoe? No matter the amount of targets when other specs can do both st and ae and pull good numbers regardless how hard or easy it may be to pull it off.

    Also I dont mind having core mechanics being put on an outside source. However that legendary ring has a 10 yrd radius on it so i can see it being more valuable in dungeons and CMs. So what i see is people wanting to get a "legendary" to become more efficient in dungeons.

    At this point we just have to wait and see what everyone as a whole can do in any given circumstance but if more than a handful of specs can perform better overall in any situation but shadow lacks in some fights but equal in others, imo, theres an issue.
    Shadow shouldn't blow people out of the water though...they should consistently be at the top of the pack single target in a balanced way if they are to be good at single target.

    I also think that there is an inherent benefit in being better at single target rather than cleave/aoe. While the aoe specs put out huge visible dps numbers and net total damage, shadow is silently stomping them on the boss damage. I have mained some other aoe specs in the distant past, and let me tell you it feels awful to suck at single target just like it feels awful to suck when aoe is all that matters. The ring/soul prism/fight length relative to dps cds is how these aoe classes are able to extend their reach past their niche and eat up shadow. WOD just has a set of design flaws that crush shadow priests.
    Last edited by Kretan; 2016-04-05 at 03:56 PM.

  7. #4407
    Quote Originally Posted by mkultra55 View Post
    I agree that lost GCD's impact DPS potential but I question the idea that missing a single refresh is really as devastating as you say. Of course a top tier player who never misses a refresh will parse higher than an average player but we're not talking about a WOD Affliction Lock missing out on an Agony refresh here.
    its not even that, its that having 3 targets voidbolt refreshable means you also can keep up dots using your free gcds between mb/vb on at most 2-3 more adds (these dots will then tick off and expire, and it might just be better to cast lone swp's).

    this severely limits the types of fights where shadow's damage will increase as adds show up. the fact that we also have to retain our voidbolts for our main dot stack refreshes also severely cuts down on our ability to do 'focus/priority damage' which has been another excuse for shadow being mediocre/bad in overall performance.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kretan View Post
    Shadow shouldn't blow people out of the water though...they should consistently be at the top of the pack single target in a balanced way if they are to be good at single target.
    if some specs will blow the rest of the competition out of the water on several fights, and on several fights shadow is basement tier, it is absolutely reasonable for shadow to blow some specs out of the water on other fights. this really doesn't happen often outside of the 'wrong' spec of a pure or something.

    and there's 0 chance of us being so high single target that we'd be comparable to mages or hunters, who have strong single target and LOADS of practically free cleave. they could patch this up and make it more similar by giving us much longer SWP, or something else to apply dots (having VB cast a dot stack instead of just refreshing could be an option, as well).

    its the fact that other 'single target focused' specs (which will be viable, or do you live in a universe where you think marksman and arcane will be unplayable?) have HUGE amounts of aoe, multidot/spreadcleave and cleave in their mechanical toolkit make this entire line of discussion useless - you aren't basing your assumption that shadow will have good enough single target to make up for other shortcomings on what other classes have. or do you think blizzard is going to remove arcane barrage and mark of alueth cleave mechanics? that's what they'd have to do to make shadow ever worth taking over arcane assuming things are reasonably tuned.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by aemaet View Post
    Dunno, I have a feeling that blizzard tried to keep our damage on medium-low level because of OPness of VE and possible issues of multidoting being too strong in MoP/WoD (through they let affliction and warlocks in general to be strong for entire addon). Now thats VE is dead as a raid heal and dots have a threshold where dotting more targets in VF won't be a dps increase (you can dot only so much targets between MB/VB, and delaying them means less insanity => less mass hysteria stacks and uptime => weaker dots), balancing shadow would be much easier.
    its really impossible to put motives on blizzard PVE balance. it's been retarded every patch of the last two expacs. like VE is too strong of a raid heal... but people would drop healers and pick up pures to push past mechanical timers, not pick up shadowpriests and pray that we'd get enough AS procs to heal through one mechanic every 3 mins with VE.

    the fact that this whole 'oh our multidot is op' keeps coming up is ridiculous. if it was just warlocks in mop that'd be one thing, but they did the same goddamn thing with fire in brf. and people still apologize for blizzards shit balance because the paste brigade they raid with apparently can't outdps a shadowpriest so shadow is fine or something.

    - - - Updated - - -
    Last edited by snaxattax; 2016-04-05 at 04:55 PM.

  8. #4408
    Quote Originally Posted by Isentropy View Post
    As I said, it adds up. I'm talking missing refreshes when you should've been able to get them - it's inevitable that you'll have to put your dots on targets again when there's more than 3 targets and in those cases losing globals adds up real quick. Every time you miss a refresh (when you shouldn't have) you're essentially one global behind, which can lead to being more globals behind. It's far more than just a small optimization.
    I get your point. I guess we have different definitions of "devastating". This game has such a strong RNG component that there's always a margin for error in potential DPS that it seems like you'd have to miss more than a couple of refreshes to get beyond that error threshold. If we still had the former Legacy of the Void I'd be more inclined to use devastating.

  9. #4409
    Quote Originally Posted by Isentropy View Post
    Can we compete with specs that have great burst AoE here? No, of course not, not right now anyway. On the plus side the fire adds and arcane adds favor multidotting much more than the frost adds, so overall shadow wouldn't be horrible at this fight. But yes, we definitely need some more AoE tools besides Mind Sear.
    except marks hunters are probably as good if not better at dealing with those adds as well with marked shot.

  10. #4410
    Dreadlord RsinRC's Avatar
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    @snaxattax i think we all know these things by now. Lets see what comes in the next build and hope these concerns are put up in the forums.

    Moving on, is there any other mentions aside from short dot durations and aoe and the appearance of solid utility ?

  11. #4411
    Quote Originally Posted by snaxattax View Post
    except marks hunters are probably as good if not better at dealing with those adds as well with marked shot.
    Well, Marked Shot is just crazy right now in general so it's hard to anticipate just how much a nerf will affect its usability. If Shadow Word: Pain gets a duration boost having to juggle all your dots will be a bit less stressful when new adds come. That's a big step, along with dots refreshing on cast of Void Bolt rather than on hit.

    Edit: Oh and also raidtesting has still not been done with all artifact traits yet. There's no telling just how much that will affect balance, both positively and negatively. Same goes for legendaries but those will be locked for initial mythic progress anyway.
    Last edited by Isentropy; 2016-04-05 at 07:26 PM.

  12. #4412
    Quote Originally Posted by RsinRC View Post
    @snaxattax i think we all know these things by now. Lets see what comes in the next build and hope these concerns are put up in the forums.

    Moving on, is there any other mentions aside from short dot durations and aoe and the appearance of solid utility ?
    I feel like the utility thing isn't a big deal with the addition of a mana bar and void form being something we trigger now. If we know we'd need to use a utility spell, we can hold off VF for a few seconds to get it done.
    What I think needs to happen is for mind sear to extend the duration of dots. Maybe with a full channel or per tick. You do that, and you make shadow crash refresh dot duration, and instead of making it 15 insanity baseline, give it generation based on the number of mobs hit.

    I'm just not seeing a great way to deal with add packs without some way of extending dot duration on targets that don't warrant void bolt.

  13. #4413
    having very short dots and the refresh triggered by voidbolt isn't a good thing because it severely reduces our ability to hard swap to adds. if voidbolt is our dot refresh, we need to be able to cast 2-3 on adds and still be able to come back to refreshing dots on 2 or 3 targets. going back to 20+ second dots would fix this, and then they just have to add some sort of useful aoe mechanic and the spec is an actual spec instead of a mechanical meme.

  14. #4414
    Quote Originally Posted by snaxattax View Post
    having very short dots and the refresh triggered by voidbolt isn't a good thing because it severely reduces our ability to hard swap to adds. if voidbolt is our dot refresh, we need to be able to cast 2-3 on adds and still be able to come back to refreshing dots on 2 or 3 targets. going back to 20+ second dots would fix this, and then they just have to add some sort of useful aoe mechanic and the spec is an actual spec instead of a mechanical meme.
    The following is completely personal opinion based on what others play on the Alpha:

    ST sounds to be what most people consider the high point of the revamp. This is also the playstyle that I have always preferred over multidot. Multidot always felt more like was Affliction is in Legion/previously should have been.

    This creates a conflict for the class. Some people like the ST formula, which can be shifted to a cleave style of play easily (Mind Sear replacing Mind Flay at 3+ enemies, an "epidemic" effect for SWP, and/or a DoT spread mechanic [Shadow Crash applies DoTs al a Hand of Guldan is an idea]). Others like the multidot formula of SWP+VT then MB on priority , and, in VF, VB to refresh. Can both playstyles work? Yes, but likely not as currently designed. This is where Blizz has made a mistake with the Talents, in my opinion. Most classes have some form of "AoE" vs "passive ST" vs "active ST" in several rows. SPriest has all ST talents except Shadow Crash, and, potentially, ToF and AS.

    Talents should be the way to balance the two (three if you consider cleave and ST completely separate). There should be more "choice" to distinguish playstyle in the talents. Some examples:
    FotM: it needs something regardless for it to compete with ToF. Whether that means add Mind Sear, or alter its effect completely
    San'Layn: VT into DP (high upfront damage in addition to DoT)
    RoS: replace it. please. SWD is a core ability and RoS's effect is a part of what makes it a core ability.
    Void Ray: I have mentioned before that adding Mind Sear might be a solution to the uselessness of the talent and skill
    Shadow Crash: add a DoT application, even just SWP on all affected targets
    Mind Spike: make the new "spike explosion" effect work as an 8yd cleave. or simply replace with an AoE/cleave ability as that would make Mind Sear even more useless.

    Most of these are would I call "tweaks" to distinguish playstyles and uses of talents. Currently every row has a mathematical best, and no personal choice (except StM).

  15. #4415
    If we end up being strong in ST at the sacrifice of everything else, I'd be fine with that.
    "Falling from heaven is not as painful as surviving the impact."

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  16. #4416
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilee25 View Post
    I disagree with this statement.
    Let me assure you I have read and considered your entire post beyond this point. Some of it I've heard before. Some of it not. I mean no ill will toward you, and I respect your opinion on this issue. All in all, I say, "Fair Enough", agree to disagree and all that. However, let me be blunt:

    Mind Spike has never solved an issue that couldn't have been solved in another way. It's always felt like a tool out of another class/spec's kit to me. It's inclusions, successful and otherwise, have only ever, in my personal opinion, hindered or outright prevented approaches to our issues (that Mind Spike has attempted to solve in various ways now [burst, mobility, interrupt issues, etc - I've already posted on this stuff]) that would have been more fitting for the spec. Again, in my mind, in my opinion. I do not pretend this extends to you, or anyone else.

    Regardless, I want Mind Spike to die in an unending inferno that consumes any that attempt to put out said fire, or salvage anything from it.

    I go back to what I've already said, scrap Mind Spike. Roll its useful aspects into Mind Flay and Void Ray. Replace Mind Spike with something useful and fitting. That does not mean we do not address the issues Mind Spike has tried to solve over the years. We simply find a way to solve them without Mind Spike.

  17. #4417
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeriel View Post
    The following is completely personal opinion based on what others play on the Alpha:

    ST sounds to be what most people consider the high point of the revamp. This is also the playstyle that I have always preferred over multidot. Multidot always felt more like was Affliction is in Legion/previously should have been.
    ????? you mean you want us to be like we are now where our multitarget tools are so bad we don't use them? because unless shadow is then mathematically superior to other specs by a substantial margin in single target it will probably be used less than it is now as a spec. all the other 'heavy single target' specs also have extremely potent cleave and multitarget/multidot tools that make them just apples to apples superior to a shadowpriest.

    and as far as shadow should or shouldn't be multidot - it's literally what shadow has done since TBC. if shadow isn't supposed to have strong multidot/multitarget then it's just some useless meme. they should just go back to the original preview TBC 41point talent that was a shadow school flash heal and make us some retarded healer leveling spec and be done with it.

    so much of our kit is built around having some amount of multitarget, and using that multitarget damage to increase our focus target damage. if those tools aren't effective enough, then shadow is just a half a mage or half a hunter. except with worse soaking - and also less raid utility than a (legion) moonkin.

    basically, being strong in ST and weak in everything else just doesn't exist for a non pure (who generally have one or more aoe/cleave specs to use when needed). if that's what shadow is, shadow will be more of a meme than it was in t14.

    and the problem with voidray in general is that we cast so few fillers that it would never be good just due to its stacking buff mechanic. if you're asking yourself 'what can I do to buff my filler damage, especially outside voidform' the answer is to log on your alt, not to spec void ray. our voidform rotation is like 50% high dpct mindblast and void bolt. I have no problem with this, but it makes our fillers basically punishment spells. even if it was a flat persistent +200% damage increase to mindflay, it would probably never be worth picking.

    I really think a lot of the problems with the spec should be fixed either baseline mechanics (optimal) or through replacement and consolidation of the non damaging traits of our artifact (we literally sink 9x the points of most dps in things that don't increase damage to unlock all our keystones and that is unacceptable). we should always want to cast dots on adds as they trickle into a fight - but in the legion model we have the most awkward target cap problem that the spec has ever had to deal with. we've always been a spec where we usually multidot with only one of our two dots if there are ten+ targets, but right now we just ignore multidotting past 6 (3 stacks with voidbolt, 2-3 stacks hardcast that fall off) and that's just ridiculous.

    shadow's power curve as it levels its artifact makes zero sense, while most other specs get additional free cleaves. we're gong to be dumping points in reducing the cost of shadowmend, and improving our dispersion while arc mages (who will probably have better ST than us even if we have 'ST at the expense of everything else') are catching up to us on their offspec fire artifact to use on heavy aoe fights.

    all they need to do is put dot durations back to their old values - or ideally slightly longer values, like 20-24 seconds - and give shadow something like a mindsear which casts a 6 second SWP on everything just so we can use our SoI in some coherent way in burst aoe, but still maintain the traditional mindblast (or voidbolt, in legions case) period-centric gameplay.
    Last edited by snaxattax; 2016-04-06 at 12:53 AM.

  18. #4418
    Quote Originally Posted by Purple View Post
    ~mindspike sucks~
    I agree. The only way I think it should stay in is as a replacement for mind flay that dealt the same amount of damage and served only as an option for filler spells for those who don't like the channel. At this point it might as well have a different name because none of its Legion versions are the same as live.

  19. #4419
    I don't see how anything that has anything to do with mindflay will ever be useful under legion/voidform's current design. it's just way, way too little of our damage to care about. they'd have to do something silly like multiply the insanity gen and dps by 2+ to make it comparable to void lord w/ 4t19 (our set bonuses in general also devalue mindflay significantly - and will also probably force us to rush the optional voidbolt trait on our artifacts) or reaper of souls on an add fight.

  20. #4420
    Quote Originally Posted by Purple View Post
    Let me assure you I have read and considered your entire post beyond this point. Some of it I've heard before. Some of it not. I mean no ill will toward you, and I respect your opinion on this issue. All in all, I say, "Fair Enough", agree to disagree and all that. However, let me be blunt:

    Mind Spike has never solved an issue that couldn't have been solved in another way. It's always felt like a tool out of another class/spec's kit to me. It's inclusions, successful and otherwise, have only ever, in my personal opinion, hindered or outright prevented approaches to our issues (that Mind Spike has attempted to solve in various ways now [burst, mobility, interrupt issues, etc - I've already posted on this stuff]) that would have been more fitting for the spec. Again, in my mind, in my opinion. I do not pretend this extends to you, or anyone else.

    Regardless, I want Mind Spike to die in an unending inferno that consumes any that attempt to put out said fire, or salvage anything from it.

    I go back to what I've already said, scrap Mind Spike. Roll its useful aspects into Mind Flay and Void Ray. Replace Mind Spike with something useful and fitting. That does not mean we do not address the issues Mind Spike has tried to solve over the years. We simply find a way to solve them without Mind Spike.
    Humor me for a moment, because I'm curioius.

    Mind Spike was introduced in Cata. I was around then, and I don't remember anyone expressing this sentiment back then, even in Dragon Soul when it became a part of our set bonus rotation. I was writing the spriest guide back then, so I got a LOT of communication and feedback. I don't remember anyone saying something like "this spell is the ugly ruin of shadow."

    I do not remember seeing anyone say anything like during MoP either.

    To me, this sentiment only happened in WoD.

    Which means to me that you are actually misplacing all of this anger. You're not mad at Mind Spike. What you're really mad at is CoP, and the entire game play style that was born out of it.

    I've talked to a lot of people this expac, and as near as i can tell, they single-handedly blame CoP for ruining the entire class. I'm wonder if that's where you are coming from. Did you play before WoD? And did you feel that way about MS back then? Am I off the mark here?

    .......

    As an aside, and to bring this slightly back on topic. I spoke to a few of my old friends at the beginning of WoD, and they thought that CoP and DoTWeaving was going to bring back the dragon soul play. They spoke fondly of it, and hoped that was what it would feel like. These same people seem to think the new void form design is a throwback to that era, and basically an homage to that style of game play.

    I do find that thought interesting, and I wonder if... somewhere, somehow all of this is connected.
    "Falling from heaven is not as painful as surviving the impact."

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